Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title? | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

yaya124

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Going by that, you would have to agree then that Jeffrey Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi, and Takahiko Kozuka are currently all better than Plushenko according to their most recent head-to-head results of Japan Open 2012.

Had Chan skated his 2011 Worlds SP/LP at those Olympics, he would have easily beaten Plushenko. Just like if he skated his 2013 Worlds SP/LP he would might have been placed behind Plushenko (even though his score was 13 points higher than Plushenko's 2010 total). Taking their last head to head is an inaccurate way of comparison because some skaters haven't competed head to head in ages (especially when Plushenko hasn't been on the Grand Prix circuit for 3 years, and his competitors now are much more seasoned than back then).

So Jeffrey Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi, and Takahiko Kozuka are better than Plushenko based on JO, and the first 5 men whose scores are better than Plushenko in EC2013 SP are also better than Plushenko!!!!

And Plushenko is better than Chan at JO 2012, so Chan is worse than all these men above......
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think bestskate8 refers to when Plushenko was in his prime.

So Plushenko in his prime (2012 Euros) has a two mistake advantage over Chan in his prime (2011 Worlds), Takahashi in his prime (2012 World Team Trophy) and Fernandez in his prime (2013 Euros)?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
So Jeffrey Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi, and Takahiko Kozuka are better than Plushenko based on JO, and the first 5 men whose scores are better than Plushenko in EC2013 SP are also better than Plushenko!!!!

And Plushenko is better than Chan at JO 2012, so Chan is worse than all these men above......

Exactly, I'm pointing out that it's often inaccurate to use somebody's most recent head-to-head as an assessment of who's better than who.

Plushenko bombed at 2012 Japan Open and placed behind Buttle. Fernandez bombed at 2012 Euros and placed behind Plushenko. But somehow 2012 Euros is supposed to be an indicator that Plushenko is better than Fernandez without taking into account how much better Fernandez has become in the past season? I bet nobody would argue that the Japan Open is an indication that Buttle is a better skater than Plushenko -- people would probably say "Oh, look at Russian Nationals, Plushenko would have easily beaten Buttle with his Russian nationals performances." Yeah, but since Buttle didn't compete at Russian Nationals we only have the Japan Open's results to go by. :p
 

yaya124

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Exactly, I'm pointing out that it's often inaccurate to use somebody's most recent head-to-head as an assessment of who's better than who.

So it is perfectly OK to use Plushenko's 2010's program as a perfect example for his "non-existing" TR; "crap" Ch, etc.

And bring Chan's rare but nice performance to compare to Plushenko's rare but disastrous SP this year is also perfectly OK.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
By "better than" on this thread we mean, "who is destined to skate better at the Sochi Olympics," right? Hmm.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
So it is perfectly OK to use Plushenko's 2010's program as a perfect example for his "non-existing" TR; "crap" Ch, etc.

And bring Chan's rare but nice performance to compare to Plushenko's are but disastrous SP this year is also perfectly OK.

Yes it is, because I'm saying at the time, his TR/CH/SS were subpar, and have been like that most of his career in terms of what he had put out in his performances up until that point. Clearly he's capable of better TR/CH/SS as evidenced by his Euro and Russian Nats skates, which I've acknowledged. I think even his fans would agree that he's got much better programs now than earlier in his career.
 

bestskate8

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Okay, so until the next time they compete against each other we can assume that Jeffrey Buttle is better than Plushenko, based on their most recent head to head at Japan Open 2012.

Do you really want me to take serious JO, I wouldn't even count GP :p
Worlds, Olympics, Euro ok

I think bestskate8 refers to when Plushenko was in his prime.

He knows what I ment, just twisted
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
No way is anything in plushenkos career as good as najinski!Few skaters in their career have something as good as that! Even lambiel takahashi chan buttle hanyu Fernandez etc etc and all the skaters proclaimed better than plushenko including goebel in 2003 lol.
 

yaya124

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Yes it is, because I'm saying at the time, his TR/CH/SS were subpar, and have been like that most of his career in terms of what he had put out in his performances up until that point. Clearly he's capable of better TR/CH/SS as evidenced by his Euro and Russian Nats skates, which I've acknowledged. I think even his fans would agree that he's got much better programs now than earlier in his career.

I totally agree his recent programs are much better than Tango Amore, personally I like them better than also the godfather (2006 version). But his earlier programs were still brilliant than most of the programs you are praising now (not Plushenko's ones but other "top" skaters') if only from the performing art point of view.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
By "better than" on this thread we mean, "who is destined to skate better at the Sochi Olympics," right? Hmm.

That's what I'm going by when I compare the current crop of skaters to each other. Like anything these are just predictions -- nobody would have expected Amodio or Suzuki to end up as poorly as they did at Worlds, just as I'm sure not a single person pegged Denis Ten to win silver.

The thread title is "Can Evgeni win the Olympic title" - sure (but he'll need the other guys to bomb, which happened at 2013 Worlds, so it's indeed possible). Based on the rest of the field, is it likely that Evgeni will win the 2014 Olympic title? - in my opinion, definitely not as 2013 Worlds was probably an anomaly where all the top guys bombed. Does it matter if he loses the 2014 Olympic title? - I don't think so since he has nothing to prove having won 3 medals including a gold before.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I totally agree his recent programs are much better than Tango Amore, personally I like them better than also the godfather (2006 version). But his earlier programs were still brilliant than most of the programs you are praising now (not Plushenko's ones but other "top" skaters') if only from the performing art point of view.

You are totally correct! But a big problem is a belief From csg that all his 6.0 programs were worthless and all his second mark was just a jump bonus.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
The speculations sound a like a moo point to me, after the surgery and his lack of training time now. I think Plush with his Rn and Euros 2012 performances started a nice built up for Sochi that was disturbed this year, so now I believe that if he skates at Sochi at all it will be a major comeback story on its own.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
You are totally correct! But a big problem is a belief From csg that all his 6.0 programs were worthless and all his second mark was just a jump bonus.

I never said his 6.0 programs were worthless... I said that pre-IJS his expression and interpretation were decent (though not as good as Yagudin's) but his choreography has never been complex or difficult (save for a few footwork sequences), before Euros 2012. Once IJS came along his artistry and choreography actually deteriorated because he become so focused on his jumps. He's far more into the character and interpretation of his 2002 Carmen LP than his 2006 LP.

The programs didn't really suffer though from a performance standpoint because he maintained his jumping consistency and it's hard to give somebody less PCS or artistic marks when they put out a clean skate. I'm curious as to how his fans view his Euros LP to his 2010 and 2006 Olympic LP, from a technical skating perspective. There's no question that his 2012 programs are far better choreographically and artistically than his programs in 2006/2010... so what would they have gotten back then - 6.2?
 

yaya124

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
I never said his 6.0 programs were worthless... I said that pre-IJS his expression and interpretation were decent (though not as good as Yagudin's) but his choreography has never been complex or difficult (save for a few footwork sequences), before Euros 2012. Once IJS came along his artistry and choreography actually deteriorated because he become so focused on his jumps. He's far more into the character and interpretation of his 2002 Carmen LP than his 2006 LP.

The programs didn't really suffer though from a performance standpoint because he maintained his jumping consistency and it's hard to give somebody less PCS or artistic marks when they put out a clean skate. I'm curious as to how his fans view his Euros LP to his 2010 and 2006 Olympic LP, from a technical skating perspective. There's no question that his 2012 programs are far better choreographically and artistically than his programs in 2006/2010... so what would they have gotten back then - 6.2?

I like his 2006 EC performance although it was not perfect due to the fact he was sick and was exhausted after the skate. What I saw from that performance is a fighter who fought against his weak body and finish his skate cleanly. As for his 2010's EC's performance, I said before I am not a big fan of Tango amore (though I watched it live once in show, very exciting if only because it was skated by Plushenko), so no comments on that.

And I like his post Carmen programs a lot, Adagio, Tango and flamenco, St. Petersburg 300, Nijinsky, Moonlight, and Godfather in 2004-5 season. They are art on ice.

It is never fair to mark the old programs since the rules change all the time. But since you are so eager to diminish Plushenko's achievements by defining him only as a jumper, I guess that is why you are so eager to mark his old programs down to show that he is just an average skater comparing to other "top" skaters.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I never said his 6.0 programs were worthless... I said that pre-IJS his expression and interpretation were decent (though not as good as Yagudin's) but his choreography has never been complex or difficult (save for a few footwork sequences), before Euros 2012. Once IJS came along his artistry and choreography actually deteriorated because he become so focused on his jumps. He's far more into the character and interpretation of his 2002 Carmen LP than his 2006 LP.

The programs didn't really suffer though from a performance standpoint because he maintained his jumping consistency and it's hard to give somebody less PCS or artistic marks when they put out a clean skate. I'm curious as to how his fans view his Euros LP to his 2010 and 2006 Olympic LP, from a technical skating perspective. There's no question that his 2012 programs are far better choreographically and artistically than his programs in 2006/2010... so what would they have gotten back then - 6.2?

Yeah it's amazing how how the judges decided to throw out all the standards in judging 6.0 presentation just for plushenko. Everyone else in skating has one standard and for plushenko the judges were about using 6.0 in presentation as a jump bonus and charisma while skating bonus. Nothing else was necessary. And then in pcs everyone else must do ch in and tr and have skating skills but he only has performance so the judges decided to base all his pcs marks on performance because no in or tr or ch or ss! Amazing. That's s major legacy for plushenko all it's own! Having all the judges mark him easier and hold everyone else to higher standards. Throw out all the rules!!

You are so overrating his euros 2012 lp as the Birth of a new plushenko never seen before that I think it's just ridiculous. I have watched his 2010 Olympics performance much more than his 2012 euros Performance. It was really good and more technically difficult than his euros 2012 performance. Maybe thats why he was smoother in presentation in 2012.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I like his 2006 EC performance although it was not perfect due to the fact he was sick and was exhausted after the skate. What I saw from that performance is a fighter who fought against his weak body and finish his skate cleanly. As for his 2010's EC's performance, I said before I am not a big fan of Tango amore (though I watched it live once in show, very exciting if only because it was skated by Plushenko), so no comments on that.

And I like his post Carmen programs a lot, Adagio, Tango and flamenco, St. Petersburg 300, Nijinsky, Moonlight, and Godfather in 2004-5 season. They are art on ice.

It is never fair to mark the old programs since the rules change all the time. But since you are so eager to diminish Plushenko's achievements by defining him only as a jumper, I guess that is why you are so eager to mark his old programs down to show that he is just an average skater comparing to other "top" skaters.

The last paragraph is so good! Right after I post something I see that you posted something much better!!
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
The speculations sound a like a moo point to me, after the surgery and his lack of training time now. I think Plush with his Rn and Euros 2012 performances started a nice built up for Sochi that was disturbed this year, so now I believe that if he skates at Sochi at all it will be a major comeback story on its own.

I know! It's so almost unbelievable what with the spinal disc replacement that him making Sochi won't be it's own thing! First skater ever with this procedure. It's a new procedure anyway!
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
I never said his 6.0 programs were worthless... I said that pre-IJS his expression and interpretation were decent (though not as good as Yagudin's) but his choreography has never been complex or difficult (save for a few footwork sequences), before Euros 2012. Once IJS came along his artistry and choreography actually deteriorated because he become so focused on his jumps. He's far more into the character and interpretation of his 2002 Carmen LP than his 2006 LP.
I'm bored. In an another thread we already talked this matter. If you compare their presentation marks, Plushenko is clearly the winner. Plushy was the youngest male skater ever, who received 6.0. He received cca 70 60s before the IJS was introduced. He beat Yagudin with second marks, not technical points. The explanation is so simply, Yagudin lived in North-Am for 7 years, he competed in SA and SC many times, he won his olympic gold medal in US, when he retired he competed on professional competitions many times there. And he retired so early, in americans minds he is the legend who beat Plush. Not to mention Plushy skates in Russian style, and Yagudin not.
These are parts of the Russian documentary on Plushy, Portrait of the star:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB2PDzouzSY Plushenko vs Yagudin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qdWHrP37zU Plushenko vs Yagudin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLcyg-KW3I0 Artist on ice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBqGEGsRigc Artist on ice

This is from Russian point of view, opinions of skaters, old skaters, journalists.
_________

The Tango Amore isn't my favorite program, but he "blew up" the arenas with it, not once.

"About Plushy's performance of Tango Amore in Beijing last year, I want to mention one of the most wonderful compliments to Plushy I've ever read, from a Chinese Weir fan (who did not know much about Plushy before): she said that as soon as he came out onto the ice, she literally felt the air pressure change, a kind of mysterious energy physically pushing against her chest, something that could only be described as an "aura", and all of a sudden she began to see how things like the Bermuda Triangle and other strange phenomena could be possible, because there are no other explanations for powers like this!
In hindsight, Tango Amore might be the right choice for him at that time. It is a program that he felt comfortable with, the style is very original and mature, you don't get to see skaters do a very sensual and sexy program in competition that often

And as an exhibition program, oh boy, the audience just loves it! He almost blew 18,000 people off with that program in Artistry On Ice last year. I have read nothing but raving review after that performance in China, people calling it "the highlight of the night", and "the perfect combination of dancing and music".
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
I'm bored.
CSG sucks with his trollish comparison of Plu 2003 and the field of 2013, with different rules, etc. :rolleye: I too want to troll! :laugh:


Can Plu win in Sochi?
-Sure. Who else. He knows how to stand on his feet after landing, he has the best posture ever, with mind-blowing command of ice and the charisma of a conqueror. The home ice and public will be the part of his PCS with Putin as a cheerleader.

Can Chan win in Sochi?
-Sure. Granted. He is the most corrupted skater in fs history in terms of unfair wins. Retiring David Dore will get his farewell gift. Never mind that the service of zamboni won't be required since Patrick's butt will do all work.

Can Dai win in Sochi?
-Sure. What a stupid question. The people's champion is the best artistic skater ever with charming personality that doesn't annoy anyone except Chan ubers and JSF.

Can Hanyu win in Sochi?
-Sure. With so many skaters possibly retiring, Japan is in desperate need of a new star. Therefore TV Tokyo, Fuji TV, NHK and Asahi TV will cooperate their assets to bribe ISU judges handsomely as only money can do.

Can Javi win in Sochi?
-Sure. He is Orser pet-boy. At the same time he is cute and not a jerk. Also, he is a Euro which is awesome a priori.

Can Ten win in Sochi?
-Sure. Because in this case no ISU monster members will get the main prize. :biggrin:

(be continued)
 
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