Page 14 of 51 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ... LastLast
Results 196 to 210 of 753

Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #196
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,078
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    On the subject of fall cushion, Chan does have a fall cushion but people think it's 4-5 falls inherently, without realising that his margin for error in the FS is mitigated by the excellent SPs he's been having which are creating that cushion. Of course, people really just look at the freeskate, right?
    For me, it is nostalgia for the good old days. I know it's a new world (Golda), but I don't have to like it.

    Under ordinal judging you had to skate two excellent programs to win a major championship. It was not absolutely impossible to win with a fall, but it was not common. If you skated a clean short, good enough for third place of higher, that earned you the privilege of "going for the gold, do or die," in the long program. This is a very satisfying format for an athletic competition, IMHO.

  2. #197
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    243
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Plushyfan, from a fan's perspective, his programs will always be perfect to you and that's totally fine to admire him and think that of him... but from a technical skating perspective, most of Plushenko's career had a lot to be desired. In 2012, for the first time I started to appreciate his actual SKATING, and not just jumping. Prior to that, he was a jumping machine with moments of over the top interpretation. That link at the top of the page shows he's certainly capable of subtley and fluidity, unlike previous years. It does bode well for future performances. Plushenko's 2012 Euros LP scored higher PCS and yet wasn't as clean as his 2010 Olympics LP. To me that shows that at least the judges are crediting him for improving.



    Sorry, I should have guessed that you were referring to 2006 when you sandwich that statement in between two statements about Euros 2012 and make no mention of 2006.

    I didn't say he's untalented in SS, CH, IN... I said he's inferior in those departments compared to other skaters (Lambiel, Takahashi, Chan)... and he got his World titles and Olympic medals primarily on the basis of his strong jumping ability (his 2006 Olympic LP was practically barren choreography-wise and was just a jump fest, with nobody else in the field coming even close to technically matching his difficulty or his level of clean programs). Euros 2012 shows he's capable of better artistry but if we're talking what he's done most of his career, it's been jumping. I mean, how would you compare his 2006 Olympic gold LP to his 2012 Euros gold LP? My guess is that in the past two years, he's come to a realisation that he really needs a program if he's going to still be competitive.

    And, you took a competition where Fernandez skated poorly to prove your point. It would be as inaccurate as saying Buttle beating Plushenko at the Japan Open where they actually competed against each other in SP and LP means that Buttle's better than Plushenko. It would be like saying Ten has better choreography and interpretation than Takahashi because at their most recent head-to-head competition, Ten thoroughly outscored Takahashi overall and in several PCS areas in the FS... but we all know Takahashi performed poorly and has better CH/IN than most if not all of the field. .
    May be Chan fans should learn to speak for themselves and not for everybody. I don’t see Ten is worst then Takahashi or Chan in CH/IN.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    If you take their best competitions, Fernandez handily wins. Even if Plushenko weren't injured and skated like he did at Euros 2012 (his personal best) at Euros 2013 he still would have most likely lost to Fernandez.
    Final and latest results only matters when skaters compete head to head, Ten was better then Fernandez, Takahashi, Hanyu and Chan at Worlds 2013. It is huge advantage heading to Oly 2014.
    As of today Plushenko is better then Chan according to the results from Oly 2010. It is a fact and end of the story.

  3. #198
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    243
    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    And I find it interesting how often people say that Chan is so-and-so many falls better than such-and-such. How come no one seems to compare Plushy in how many falls he has on other skaters. Why is that? Hmmmm....
    That is not true. I said before Plushenko has advantage over anybody with two mistakes.

  4. #199
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,858
    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    That is not true. I said before Plushenko has advantage over anybody with two mistakes.
    His two mistakes at Euro 2013 SP put him in sixth with just 74 points. That would have put him out of the top 10 at Worlds.

  5. #200
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,858
    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    Final and latest results only matters when skaters compete head to head, Ten was better then Fernandez, Takahashi, Hanyu and Chan at Worlds 2013. It is huge advantage heading to Oly 2014.
    As of today Plushenko is better then Chan according to the results from Oly 2010. It is a fact and end of the story.
    Okay, so until the next time they compete against each other we can assume that Jeffrey Buttle is better than Plushenko, based on their most recent head to head at Japan Open 2012.

  6. #201
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    His two mistakes at Euro 2013 SP put him in sixth with just 74 points. That would have put him out of the top 10 at Worlds.
    I think bestskate8 refers to when Plushenko was in his prime.

  7. #202
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Going by that, you would have to agree then that Jeffrey Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi, and Takahiko Kozuka are currently all better than Plushenko according to their most recent head-to-head results of Japan Open 2012.

    Had Chan skated his 2011 Worlds SP/LP at those Olympics, he would have easily beaten Plushenko. Just like if he skated his 2013 Worlds SP/LP he would might have been placed behind Plushenko (even though his score was 13 points higher than Plushenko's 2010 total). Taking their last head to head is an inaccurate way of comparison because some skaters haven't competed head to head in ages (especially when Plushenko hasn't been on the Grand Prix circuit for 3 years, and his competitors now are much more seasoned than back then).
    So Jeffrey Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi, and Takahiko Kozuka are better than Plushenko based on JO, and the first 5 men whose scores are better than Plushenko in EC2013 SP are also better than Plushenko!!!!

    And Plushenko is better than Chan at JO 2012, so Chan is worse than all these men above......

  8. #203
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,858
    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    I think bestskate8 refers to when Plushenko was in his prime.
    So Plushenko in his prime (2012 Euros) has a two mistake advantage over Chan in his prime (2011 Worlds), Takahashi in his prime (2012 World Team Trophy) and Fernandez in his prime (2013 Euros)?

  9. #204
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,858
    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    So Jeffrey Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi, and Takahiko Kozuka are better than Plushenko based on JO, and the first 5 men whose scores are better than Plushenko in EC2013 SP are also better than Plushenko!!!!

    And Plushenko is better than Chan at JO 2012, so Chan is worse than all these men above......
    Exactly, I'm pointing out that it's often inaccurate to use somebody's most recent head-to-head as an assessment of who's better than who.

    Plushenko bombed at 2012 Japan Open and placed behind Buttle. Fernandez bombed at 2012 Euros and placed behind Plushenko. But somehow 2012 Euros is supposed to be an indicator that Plushenko is better than Fernandez without taking into account how much better Fernandez has become in the past season? I bet nobody would argue that the Japan Open is an indication that Buttle is a better skater than Plushenko -- people would probably say "Oh, look at Russian Nationals, Plushenko would have easily beaten Buttle with his Russian nationals performances." Yeah, but since Buttle didn't compete at Russian Nationals we only have the Japan Open's results to go by.

  10. #205
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Exactly, I'm pointing out that it's often inaccurate to use somebody's most recent head-to-head as an assessment of who's better than who.
    So it is perfectly OK to use Plushenko's 2010's program as a perfect example for his "non-existing" TR; "crap" Ch, etc.

    And bring Chan's rare but nice performance to compare to Plushenko's rare but disastrous SP this year is also perfectly OK.

  11. #206
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,078
    By "better than" on this thread we mean, "who is destined to skate better at the Sochi Olympics," right? Hmm.

  12. #207
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,858
    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    So it is perfectly OK to use Plushenko's 2010's program as a perfect example for his "non-existing" TR; "crap" Ch, etc.

    And bring Chan's rare but nice performance to compare to Plushenko's are but disastrous SP this year is also perfectly OK.
    Yes it is, because I'm saying at the time, his TR/CH/SS were subpar, and have been like that most of his career in terms of what he had put out in his performances up until that point. Clearly he's capable of better TR/CH/SS as evidenced by his Euro and Russian Nats skates, which I've acknowledged. I think even his fans would agree that he's got much better programs now than earlier in his career.

  13. #208
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    243
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Okay, so until the next time they compete against each other we can assume that Jeffrey Buttle is better than Plushenko, based on their most recent head to head at Japan Open 2012.
    Do you really want me to take serious JO, I wouldn't even count GP
    Worlds, Olympics, Euro ok

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    I think bestskate8 refers to when Plushenko was in his prime.
    He knows what I ment, just twisted

  14. #209
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    3,610
    No way is anything in plushenkos career as good as najinski!Few skaters in their career have something as good as that! Even lambiel takahashi chan buttle hanyu Fernandez etc etc and all the skaters proclaimed better than plushenko including goebel in 2003 lol.

  15. #210
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Yes it is, because I'm saying at the time, his TR/CH/SS were subpar, and have been like that most of his career in terms of what he had put out in his performances up until that point. Clearly he's capable of better TR/CH/SS as evidenced by his Euro and Russian Nats skates, which I've acknowledged. I think even his fans would agree that he's got much better programs now than earlier in his career.
    I totally agree his recent programs are much better than Tango Amore, personally I like them better than also the godfather (2006 version). But his earlier programs were still brilliant than most of the programs you are praising now (not Plushenko's ones but other "top" skaters') if only from the performing art point of view.

Page 14 of 51 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •