Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title? | Page 35 | Golden Skate

Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Plush said this in 2010. Who have performed harder and more quads than he has at Vancouver?

This is a sophisticated post again. ;)

If we're talking Vancouver, Lambiel attempted more quads than Plushenko. If we're talking about after 2010...

At Euros 2012, in the SP Plushenko was the only man in the top 6 not to attempt a quad. In the LP Plushenko only attempted 1 quad in his LP (his only quad of the competition). Gachinski executed 2 quads in the LP (3 overall). Fernandez also did 2 quads in the LP - one of them being a 4S, which is a harder quad than 4T. Joubert attempted 2 quads in his LP. None of these men (particularly Gachinski) complained that Plushenko was only attempting 1 quad or made any statement like "If you're not attempting 2 quads, then you really don't deserve to win."

At Russian Nationals, Menshov executed 2 quads in his FS to Plushenko's 1 quad... (also, Plushenko had only 1 quad planned, whereas Kovtun, Menshov, Gachinski, and Voronov, had all planned 2 quads).

Euros 2013, even if he had done a 4T in his SP, Fernandez, Amodio and Brezina all attempted and executed a harder quad - 4S - than he would have done. In the FS, Fernandez would have landed at least 1 more quad than Plushenko (likely 2, since Plushenko hadn't planned on doing 2 quads in his FS). And it would have been two 4S and one 4T to Plushenko's one (if not two) 4T.

I was talking about Salt Lake City where Goebel performed 3 quads, as well as the 2003 Worlds... to Plushenko's two quads. Also two of those quads were quad salchows. Yes he said it in 2010, but it's convenient that he never said in 2002 that somebody who performs 3 quads to his 2 quads, and harder quads at that, should place ahead of him... but when he loses to somebody with less difficulty in Vancouver all of a sudden he protests.

The point being, Plushenko complaining about other men not having his level of difficulty were it applied now would actually turn the tables on him, should the other guys attempt and execute more/harder quads. This isn't like 2002 where the judges can use Goebel's inferior artistry as a scapegoat.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
:confused:

What makes you think so? I always thought Plushenko had much better programs then Lysacek. That is very subjective opinion.:p

Um, but you always thinking Plushenko had much better programs than Lysacek isn't a subjective opinion? ;) If you look at the marks, the judges gave Lysacek higher marks in transitions and choreography, which means Lysacek's programs were better. This seems subjective but difficult choreography and transitions are tangible things (like skating skills). Interpretation and performance are the subjective categories. Plushenko's choreography was the 5th best in both the SP and the LP (as it should have been) because you could physically see that his program was easier. Even with errors, other skaters placed above him in this category because their programs were inherently better (it's also the reason why you'll see Takahashi/Chan/others score high choreography marks even if they make errors, because the actual program itself is being credited and is independent of errors -- unless it was a serious disruption and resulted in a chunk of choreography being left out).

Of course, a skater's fans will always think their skater has the best programs. I'm sure many of Plushenko's fans thought his program content was better than Takahashi or Lambiel, too, and not just Lysacek. That's totally fine to love your skater and hope the best of them. But calling out the judges because "OMG, why so low? He's like the best!" without actually dissecting whether the program itself is worthy of higher marks is just a fan getting ahead of themselves with a clean performance and ignoring the actual difficulty between the elements.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
I think they are actually 60-year-old men in drag. ;)

:laugh: This totally explains the widespread appeal of Dan Hollander's "Doubtfire" program... a straight man dressed as an old woman in a gay-friendly sport. :popcorn:

I have never understood quite what this "stepping in" might consist of. is the suggestion that Pisseev should have called up Cinquanta and told him to rig the computer to give Plushenko 5 more points? That's the trouble with wuz-robbing. After the scores are in, it's too late. :cry:

I always wondered that too. This isn't like gymnastics where the judges neglect to add a base value, or like Canadian Nationals where Chartrand's 3Z-3S was mistakenly counted as a series which initially denied her the bronze. Exactly what do you tell the judges: "Like his program more!" "Look back at all the programs and score him higher!" "Go back and change the +1's to +2s!" I mean, how ridiculous is it to complain that your artistic marks didn't put you enough in the lead?!
 

bestskate8

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Um, but you always thinking Plushenko had much better programs than Lysacek isn't a subjective opinion? ;) If you look at the marks, the judges gave Lysacek higher marks in transitions and choreography, which means Lysacek's programs were better. This seems subjective but difficult choreography and transitions are tangible things (like skating skills). Interpretation and performance are the subjective categories. Plushenko's choreography was the 5th best in both the SP and the LP (as it should have been) because you could physically see that his program was easier. Even with errors, other skaters placed above him in this category because their programs were inherently better (it's also the reason why you'll see Takahashi/Chan/others score high choreography marks even if they make errors, because the actual program itself is being credited and is independent of errors -- unless it was a serious disruption and resulted in a chunk of choreography being left out).

Of course, a skater's fans will always think their skater has the best programs. I'm sure many of Plushenko's fans thought his program content was better than Takahashi or Lambiel, too, and not just Lysacek. That's totally fine to love your skater and hope the best of them. But calling out the judges because "OMG, why so low? He's like the best!" without actually dissecting whether the program itself is worthy of higher marks is just a fan getting ahead of themselves with a clean performance and ignoring the actual difficulty between the elements.

:laugh:

You must be joking and hope you are not serious asking me to look at those marks, because I don’t know those people and how and why they put those marks.
If Tarasova said Plushenko was robbed in SP a 5-6 points, that is the end of the story for me. :biggrin:

Plus I have my own opinion at what I saw on ice.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
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Jan 25, 2013
He got all level 4's on his spins and three on his steps. Like so did takahashi. There was not a lot of room for improvement on levels available to plushenko to improve to. I agree to do the 3 jump combo but also eliminate the quad triple move to a 3/5 layout. The quad elimination would have been best for more points on everything he did.


Not in his FS (he got a level 3 on his FSSp). He was also the only one in the top 5 to not do any level 4 footwork, which likely affected his PCS in both programs, too. As for: "All of a sudden having as a combo 4/3 meant nothing in skating and 3/3 was really the combo to do" -- it did mean something.. it meant a higher base value on his combo of about 3.8 points, and proportionally higher GOE. Unfortunately, he gave it up on spins and footwork.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
:laugh:

You must be joking and hope you are not serious asking me to look at those marks, because I don’t know those people and how and why they put those marks.
If Tarasova said Plushenko was robbed in SP a 5-6 points, that is the end of the story for me. :biggrin:

Plus I have my own opinion at what I saw on ice.

Right, because Tarasova would have no biased opinion whatsoever on the matter. ;) Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But, "those people" are the ones doling out the marks.

If you want to know why they put those marks, maybe look at the actual intricacies (or lackthereof) in Plushenko's program compared to the other skaters, instead of your "end of story" being a fellow Russian's opinion of Evgeni's skate. If you're unwilling to look at the marks and compare it to the programs, and just go by what you saw, then you'll keep telling yourself Tarasova was right.

And why 5-6 marks? Why not 8-10 marks higher? They never explained why the marks should be higher and where the higher marks should come from. It certainly wouldn't be PCS... that SP was not deserving of 44 points PCS and back in 2010 judges were also being more conservative with their PCS scores -- nobody scored 9's in the FS, not even Lambiel who had the best PCS and the best programs.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
If we're talking Vancouver, Lambiel attempted more quads than Plushenko. If we're talking about after 2010...

At Euros 2012, in the SP Plushenko was the only man in the top 6 not to attempt a quad. In the LP Plushenko only attempted 1 quad in his LP (his only quad of the competition). Gachinski executed 2 quads in the LP (3 overall). Fernandez also did 2 quads in the LP - one of them being a 4S, which is a harder quad than 4T. Joubert attempted 2 quads in his LP. None of these men (particularly Gachinski) complained that Plushenko was only attempting 1 quad or made any statement like "If you're not attempting 2 quads, then you really don't deserve to win."

At Russian Nationals, Menshov executed 2 quads in his FS to Plushenko's 1 quad... (also, Plushenko had only 1 quad planned, whereas Kovtun, Menshov, Gachinski, and Voronov, had all planned 2 quads).

Euros 2013, even if he had done a 4T in his SP, Fernandez, Amodio and Brezina all attempted and executed a harder quad - 4S - than he would have done. In the FS, Fernandez would have landed at least 1 more quad than Plushenko (likely 2, since Plushenko hadn't planned on doing 2 quads in his FS). And it would have been two 4S and one 4T to Plushenko's one (if not two) 4T.

I was talking about Salt Lake City where Goebel performed 3 quads, as well as the 2003 Worlds... to Plushenko's two quads. Also two of those quads were quad salchows. Yes he said it in 2010, but it's convenient that he never said in 2002 that somebody who performs 3 quads to his 2 quads, and harder quads at that, should place ahead of him... but when he loses to somebody with less difficulty in Vancouver all of a sudden he protests.

The point being, Plushenko complaining about other men not having his level of difficulty were it applied now would actually turn the tables on him, should the other guys attempt and execute more/harder quads. This isn't like 2002 where the judges can use Goebel's inferior artistry as a scapegoat.

At this point you just show a total and fundamental and totally north American misunderstanding of what plushenko and joubert and others were saying about quads. It is not about quads only and most quads wins. Why is it so impossible for you to comprehend that quads should be a part of a program and then that's it. Lysacek buttle chan north American media were all saying in unison that you can be a total and complete skater and there's no more room for improvement or advancement if you do all triples well!! YOu are not complete with no room for improvement if you don't do quads. You can always add quads and that means you can be complete. Like chan in 2011 or takahashi in 2012 or if he landed his quad takahashi in 2010 or plushenko in 2010 were complete skaters and I know calling plushenko complete in Vancouver goes against all north American views of plushenko as he is seen as only jumping.
 

mskater93

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Joined
Oct 22, 2005
This isn't like gymnastics where the judges neglect to add a base value, or like Canadian Nationals where Chartrand's 3Z-3S was mistakenly counted as a series which initially denied her the bronze.
CSG, I noticed you have used this turn of phrase several times. I would like to point out, it is called a SEQUENCE (which is why it is designated as +SEQ on a score sheet) and that by not calling it its proper name, you are kind of ruining your credibility in your arguments.

Back to your Plushenko argument, folks...
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
At this point you just show a total and fundamental and totally north American misunderstanding of what plushenko and joubert and others were saying about quads. It is not about quads only and most quads wins. Why is it so impossible for you to comprehend that quads should be a part of a program and then that's it. Lysacek buttle chan north American media were all saying in unison that you can be a total and complete skater and there's no more room for improvement or advancement if you do all triples well!! YOu are not complete with no room for improvement if you don't do quads. You can always add quads and that means you can be complete. Like chan in 2011 or takahashi in 2012 or if he landed his quad takahashi in 2010 or plushenko in 2010 were complete skaters and I know calling plushenko complete in Vancouver goes against all north American views of plushenko as he is seen as only jumping.

I think the point of skating is to do what you can execute well. There's no point attempting a quad if you're bound to fall on it. Lysacek and Buttle didn't deem a quad to be worth the risk and thus refrained from doing it. On a stage like the Olympics, it's most important to have a clean skate -- Takahashi wasn't landing quads very well, but decided to go for it in the FS and paid a huge price for attempting a jump that he wasn't even close to landing cleanly. Had he been smart and did a 3L instead of a quad (a 3L would have been worth 5 points + GOE, versus zero points for the fall on the under-rotated quad). Lysacek has proven that he's been capable of landing quads but if that week he felt his quad wasn't steady or consistent enough then it makes sense for him not to include it. Had he attempted a quad and made a significant error, the gold would have been lost.

Takahashi and Lambiel in 2010 were the only truly "complete skaters", who attempted the highest technical content and also had wonderful programs to back it up (and both could have won if Lambiel was more solid and if Takahashi didn't go for the quad). Lysacek/Chan had a great program but no quad. Plushenko had a quad but not as great a program (or at least great enough to win).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
CSG, I noticed you have used this turn of phrase several times. I would like to point out, it is called a SEQUENCE (which is why it is designated as +SEQ on a score sheet) and that by not calling it its proper name, you are kind of ruining your credibility in your arguments.

Back to your Plushenko argument, folks...

A jump series is synonymous with a jump sequence.

http://www.skatejournal.com/jump.html
http://www.ekifsc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/pdf/figure_skating_terms_and_concepts.pdf
http://iceskatingresources.org/PrinciplesOfJumping.pdf
Culture on Ice: Figure Skating & Meaning; pg. 289

Perhaps you've never referred to it as a jump series, but many people use "jump series" to distinguish it from "jump combination" (and as you said, "jump sequence" is also accepted and why it's marked as SEQ on the sheet).
 

yaya124

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
CSG is like doctor who running up and down across time to find the evidence support his point. Anyway, apparently whatever Plushenko does/did, it will only be right when CSG can use it to show how ordinary, arrogant skater he is. Otherwise, it is totally non-existing. Everybody can beat Plushenko in certain area, so what the fuss about him? Let us forget about Plushenko and enjoy the great Chan's era, since his artistry is unmatched from PCS point of view. Let us worship Aaron who will perform 5 quads on Olympics. So now Plushenko has nothing to compete with young guys, why bother?

But wait, maybe we need to bare his so average ability on ice for one more year (if he is healthy enough) since he is the best single men skater in Russia, so it would only make sense that he would bore us on the Olympics. What a tragic for figure skating fans:laugh:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
CSG is like doctor who running up and down across time to find the evidence support his point. Anyway, apparently whatever Plushenko does/did, it will only be right when CSG can use it to show how ordinary, arrogant skater he is. Otherwise, it is totally non-existing. Everybody can beat Plushenko in certain area, so what the fuss about him? Let us forget about Plushenko and enjoy the great Chan's era, since his artistry is unmatched from PCS point of view. Let us worship Aaron who will perform 5 quads on Olympics. So now Plushenko has nothing to compete with young guys, why bother?

But wait, maybe we need to bare his so average ability on ice for one more year (if he is healthy enough) since he is the best single men skater in Russia, so it would only make sense that he would bore us on the Olympics. What a tragic for figure skating fans:laugh:

On the contrary, I think Plushenko is an extraordinary skater in terms of jumping ability and many times I've said he's the most consistent skater of all time -- I have never called him average (only his program choreography/intricacy pre-2012). I give him credit for going for high difficulty and having such a great presence on the ice. My criticism of him is his moments of outspokenness, which can come across as arrogance (and I acknowledge that Chan also has the same, too). And I also criticize him for sometimes going over-the-top in his movements/expression (which is a matter of personal taste) and for not developing better choreography - which made his programs appear to be a jump checklist - until 2012, even though he was always capable of it (if not more capable of it before 2012 and injuries plaguing his ability). I've also said that he is the Russian man I would most like to see in Sochi, and I also agree that he is currently the best single men's skater in Russia (even though I prefer Kovtun's skating style and choreography more). His injury makes me question his Sochi status - it's pretty serious if an injury forces you to pull out - and he hasn't really done that before, and with a surgery I'm tentative about his ability to win the Olympics, let alone be on the podium -- especially given the talents and difficulty of the rest of the field. That's me taking the situation and being logical -- if you have a serious injury that requires surgery, your chances of coming back let alone winning are compromised. I take nothing away from his impressive accomplishments, and I totally respect his ability, but I'm also not going to fawn over him, and I'm going to criticize him when I think he deserves criticism.
 

mskater93

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Joined
Oct 22, 2005
A jump series is synonymous with a jump sequence.
Perhaps you've never referred to it as a jump series, but many people use "jump series" to distinguish it from "jump combination" (and as you said, "jump sequence" is also accepted and why it's marked as SEQ on the sheet).

Not just me, MANY, MANY, MANY people have never referred to it as a "series" always as a sequence (and it's been defined by the ISU as sequence and has always been defined as "sequence" in the USFS rulebook) and I've been around this sport a long time as a participant. Must be something colloquial in Canada. Carry on....
 

gmyers

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Joined
Mar 6, 2010
On the contrary, I think Plushenko is an extraordinary skater in terms of jumping ability and many times I've said he's the most consistent skater of all time -- I have never called him average (only his program choreography/intricacy pre-2012). I give him credit for going for high difficulty and having such a great presence on the ice. My criticism of him is his moments of outspokenness, which can come across as arrogance (and I acknowledge that Chan also has the same, too). And I also criticize him for sometimes going over-the-top in his movements/expression (which is a matter of personal taste) and for not developing better choreography - which made his programs appear to be a jump checklist - until 2012, even though he was always capable of it (if not more capable of it before 2012 and injuries plaguing his ability). I've also said that he is the Russian man I would most like to see in Sochi, and I also agree that he is currently the best single men's skater in Russia (even though I prefer Kovtun's skating style and choreography more). His injury makes me question his Sochi status - it's pretty serious if an injury forces you to pull out - and he hasn't really done that before, and with a surgery I'm tentative about his ability to win the Olympics, let alone be on the podium -- especially given the talents and difficulty of the rest of the field. That's me taking the situation and being logical -- if you have a serious injury that requires surgery, your chances of coming back let alone winning are compromised. I take nothing away from his impressive accomplishments, and I totally respect his ability, but I'm also not going to fawn over him, and I'm going to criticize him when I think he deserves criticism.

He's pulled out before. He did if famously in 2005 at Moscow worlds! He's older now so may not come back but he famously withdrew from what was arguably the biggest competition of his whole life up to that point in 2005.

What kovtun choreography?!? Lol that's a joke. Plushenko in 6.0 was far superior choreography to kovtun in coP but also plushenko did much superior choreography under 6.0 as his best programs ever were 6.0 programs.
 

plushyfan

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Country
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On the contrary, I think Plushenko is an extraordinary skater in terms of jumping ability and many times I've said he's the most consistent skater of all time -- I have never called him average (only his program choreography/intricacy pre-2012). I give him credit for going for high difficulty and having such a great presence on the ice. My criticism of him is his moments of outspokenness, which can come across as arrogance (and I acknowledge that Chan also has the same, too). And I also criticize him for sometimes going over-the-top in his movements/expression (which is a matter of personal taste) and for not developing better choreography - which made his programs appear to be a jump checklist - until 2012, even though he was always capable of it (if not more capable of it before 2012 and injuries plaguing his ability). I've also said that he is the Russian man I would most like to see in Sochi, and I also agree that he is currently the best single men's skater in Russia (even though I prefer Kovtun's skating style and choreography more). His injury makes me question his Sochi status - it's pretty serious if an injury forces you to pull out - and he hasn't really done that before, and with a surgery I'm tentative about his ability to win the Olympics, let alone be on the podium -- especially given the talents and difficulty of the rest of the field. That's me taking the situation and being logical -- if you have a serious injury that requires surgery, your chances of coming back let alone winning are compromised. I take nothing away from his impressive accomplishments, and I totally respect his ability, but I'm also not going to fawn over him, and I'm going to criticize him when I think he deserves criticism.

You believe me, he can sleep because of your criticism or any criticism from North-America.:laugh: He entered his name in the figure skating history, like the biggest champion, one of the greatest and one of the most popular skater ever. :clap: He brought many new fans to figure skating, and some of them watched the FS solely because of him. In Eu his name is better known than Yuna's. His name is the best ticket seller. Plu earned millions of dollars, he became a rich man, because of his talent. :agree:

I'm really glad, you don't like his programs, because your taste is toooooo COP-friendly. ;)

Do you think, he is sad because you don't like him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsEpvr0_eV4 He is a rock star, in front of the hotel.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
He's pulled out before. He did if famously in 2005 at Moscow worlds! He's older now so may not come back but he famously withdrew from what was arguably the biggest competition of his whole life up to that point in 2005.

Actually the biggest competition of his whole life up to that point was the 2002 Olympics -- which he lost to Yagudin.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
You believe me, he can sleep because of your criticism or any criticism from North-America.:laugh: He entered his name in the figure skating history, like the biggest champion, one of the greatest and one of the most popular skater ever. :clap: He brought many new fans to figure skating, and some of them watched the FS solely because of him. In Eu his name is better known than Yuna's. His name is the best ticket seller. Plu earned millions of dollars, he became a rich man, because of his talent. :agree:

I'm really glad, you don't like his programs, because your taste is toooooo COP-friendly. ;)

Do you think, he is sad because you don't like him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsEpvr0_eV4 He is a rock star, in front of the hotel.

No, I don't care if he thinks I don't like him. And he shouldn't care either. Why should one like one's critics?

But just because others like him doesn't mean I have to nor does it mean I do. Though, in fact, I like him. I just don't adore him and think he can do no wrong (which is fine if others do).
 

yaya124

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
No, I don't care if he thinks I don't like him. And he shouldn't care either. Why should one like one's critics?

But just because others like him doesn't mean I have to nor does it mean I do. Though, in fact, I like him. I just don't adore him and think he can do no wrong (which is fine if others do).

That is not fine by your standard since you kept "correcting" other's opinion.

But you are right, why Plushenko should care about your critics? He certainly cares about critics especially for those questioning his patriotism, integrity as a athlete. That is why he might get a little bit angry/upset with all your comments about his withdrawing from EU is not due to injury but because of his bad performance (in this aspect, you are no better than that Z-something commentator). He replied some twits containing similar meaning after his surgery.

He certainly cares about critics about his skating when he thinks they have a point. He said critics kept him moving forward.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Actually the biggest competition of his whole life up to that point was the 2002 Olympics -- which he lost to Yagudin.

No this is not true and plushenko himself said it was the Moscow worlds. That was not the point anyway!! The point was he had withdrawn from a competition and a big one! Bringing up his losing to yagudin is not even relevant in any way at all!! But you had to bring in Yaguidn!! Of course as this is a plushenko thread!
 
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