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Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Precisely why we don't see much of quad combos anymore, especially in SP. Because it costs the same points as to do a single quad and then a lutz combo in SP.
    Do you want quad combo to get even higher points than it has already been given? I mean do you want quad combo to have higher than 14.40 BV points?

  2. #527
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I don't think so, even though US commentators have been very biased commentators. I don't know if you've remembered some Russian friend on this board have posted how Russian commentators commentate for figure skating competitions?
    No, I don't remembered, probably I wasn't here.

  3. #528
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Well, you said it right there. That 4th place was purely based on reputation. He should have been 6th at best after the SP. That was the technical program and he had a fall and no combination... how does that place higher than guys who skated cleanly with quads, in combination at that? Worse, three of the judges actually put him in 3rd (http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg200...lts/SEG001.HTM) and two of the judges gave him higher artistic marks than Yagudin, with a fall.

    In the FS, Goebel didn't get any favours from the judges as well and got 5.6/5.7's technically which was absolutely appalling, considering he had skated the most ambitious technical program (in terms of 3 quads, 2 axels) and executed it almost flawlessly... one judge actually put him in 5th (and all three Russians in 1-2-3... hm, wonder who that judge was ).
    hm..interseting..Todd Eldredge received 4,6-5,1 !!!! Tech points and 5,5-5,7 presentations marks.. So why do you wonder Plushy's marks?

    Then many people thought that Plushy is more artistic skater like Yag . Surprisingly for NA fs fans...

  4. #529
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    The assesment of the 2002 Olympic mens SP by a dubious troll is quite faulty. Abt was not at all clean. His triple axel was landed badly forward, and might have been considered a hand down by some judges. His triple lutz was badly cheated by atleast half a rotation. He was also slow throughout more than half the program as Scott Hamilton noted.

    Chengiang Li did not do a quad combo, he did a solo quad, and a triple axel combination. I could see more case for him beating Plushenko than Abt, but his spins and other elements are too much of a weakness.

    Plushenkos marks were given by the rules. 5.3 to 5.5 for elements. Well skating cleanly 5.7 to 5.9 would make sense and the required deduction was .4 so there you go. As for the presentation marks, obviously some judges felt it didnt disrupt the flow of the program so marked it just as was, while a few others did. A reasonable judgement either way as he got up quickly from the fall and continued.

    As for Goebel his marks were more than fair in both programs. Long program his average mark was 5.8 (a couple 5.7s and a couple 5.9s, there were no 5.6s) even though he didnt have a single successful triple axel. He did not have 2 triple axels, he only had 1 and missed that one. The quality of his triples is quite poor compared to most of the top jumpers, so he was more than rewarded for his successful quads, and the 5.9s especialy were in fact not justified IMO. He received a 5.7 for presentation from almost every judges which was also quite wrong IMO. I might have had Honda over him for the bronze even without a successful quad as he did every triple perfectly, and as noted Goebel couldnt complete even 1 triple axel which is almost worse than not completing a quad, and the overall quality of his skating was in another planet from Goebel. I think Goebel in general was quite overmarked from 2001-2003 even with his quads, and lucky to attain the results he did. Most skating fans do not think he was robbed at any point in time, only a few biased and clueless homers (or in cases as we see here haters of another skater). Let me just add that 30 times (and that is probably an underestimate) more fans disagree with a huge number of Chans wins than argue Goebel deserving a higher placing at any event, including his wins at Worlds this year, so using what a few fans say as the crux of ones argument, particularly considering the source it is coming from, is comical at best.

  5. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    As for Goebel his marks were more than fair in both programs. Long program his average mark was 5.8 (a couple 5.7s and a couple 5.9s, there were no 5.6s) even though he didnt have a single successful triple axel. He did not have 2 triple axels, he only had 1 and missed that one. [/B]
    What would you call this, then? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEbsdvX6lEo&t=1m21s

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    .... and as noted Goebel couldnt complete even 1 triple axel which is almost worse than not completing a quad
    Well, I sure as hell hope you're not a 'Lambiel fan' or anything. In every single one of his careers wins, and the 2006 Olympics where he won silver, he "couldn't complete even 1 triple axel" in his freeskate.
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FS_Scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FS_scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FS_scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf

  6. #531
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=CanadianSkaterGuy;740942]What would you call this, then? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEbsdvX6lEo&t=1m21s



    Oh, CSG! I watched your link, I wacthed Timothy again, and after this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhIiisXRBys "he is 1 billion extremely amazing n awsome!"

    Do you really think that Tim was better?

  7. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Same argument here. If your memory is different, that is no justification for ... whatever. Yawn.
    Wait...what?

    I wrote that the ISU used the 2002 Olympics men's long program (among other events) to test CoP base values in the formative stages of the IJS.

    Surely this is the most mild and innocuous post in the history of figure skating message boards. What was it about this post made you so angry?

  8. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Wait...what?

    I wrote that the ISU used the 2002 Olympics men's long program (among other events) to test CoP base values in the formative stages of the IJS.

    Surely this is the most mild and innocuous post in the history of figure skating message boards. What was it about this post made you so angry?
    It was tied to a comment by csg in regard to goebel. You accurately said that based in reports cop would have had goebel the winner and maybe yagudin second and plushenko third maybe. So if csg is saying goebel deserved to beat plushenko and goebel would have won over yagudin and plushenko based upon quad values being so high that they had to give yagudins steps and spins and others more points and then give pcs categories a factor of 2 across the board then that is more detail that goes beyond I believe your post being used in conjunction with csg post saying goebel deserved to beat plushenko.

  9. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Oh, CSG! I watched your link, I wacthed Timothy again, and after this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhIiisXRBys "he is 1 billion extremely amazing n awsome!"

    Do you really think that Tim was better?
    Sorry, plushyfan, I agree that Plushenko "sold" his performance and maintained better interpretation and character, but Goebel thoroughly outjumped him and the rest of the competition and deserved silver (particularly if you take into account the short program where Plushenko was just 4th). Artistry wise, there's no denying that Plushenko was better (I actually thought his Carmen interpretation and 'attitude' was excellent). Choreography wise, Plushenko was great from the waist up but a lot of 2-footed skating and breaks. And looking at the program from a technical standpoint:

    Goebel FS: 3Z, 4S+3T, 3A+2T, 4T, 3A(so), 4S, 3F, 3L (8 jumping passes; 3 quads, 6 triples)
    Plushenko FS: 4T+3T+3L(so), 4T, 3A-3F, 3A, 3Z, 2A, 2S (7 jumping passes; 2 quads, 6 triples)

    Now take out the elements that overlap between them and you're left with:
    Goebel FS: 4S, 4S, 2T
    Plushenko FS: 4T, 2A, 2S

    Essentially Goebel did a whole quad more. Factor in the fact that Goebel had transitions (spread eagle/hydroblading) into his jumps while Plushenko didn't have any, and the fact that Goebel executed 4S/3F/3L in the second half versus Plushenko's 3Z/2A/2S, and there's absolutely no way Plushenko should have been on par or outscored Goebel, technically. To me, this difference is greater than the better artistry/interpretation. I've always been a fan of rewarding skaters who execute higher difficulty (the highest difficulty in this case -- I mean we wouldn't see 3 quads in the FS for another decade!) to maintain the sport aspect of figure skating and I think on that day theatrics beat out technical.

  10. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    The quality of his triples is quite poor compared to most of the top jumpers so he was more than rewarded for his successful quads, and the 5.9s especialy were in fact not justified IMO.
    Not only were you wrong about Goebel not having any clean 3A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEbsdvX6lEo&t=1m21s), but I also don't get which of Goebel's triples in that FS were of 'quite poor' quality, other than the second 3A (which was the only triple he would get a deduction on). Goebel landed his triples with good flow and fully rotated, and he had transitions going into his 3A+2T and his 3L and coming out of his 3Z. The only thing he lacks is the height that the other guys get.

    Plushenko stepped out of his 3L, lipped his 3F, turned a 3S to a 2S, and had no transitions going into any of his jumps (especially his stalked 3As)... so I hope you're not referring to him as one of the top jumpers who had overall better quality of triples. The only one who I would argue had better jump quality overall was Yagudin. I'm not even a big fan of Goebel, but I think credit should be given where credit is due. A well-balanced jump layout with 3 quads, 2 axels with just a stepout on the 2nd axel, is definitely worthy of a 5.9; he should have had close to a string of them (and certainly no 5.6/5.7).

  11. #536
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    5.3 to 5.5 for elements. Well skating cleanly 5.7 to 5.9 would make sense and the required deduction was .4 so there you go.
    His mistake was more than a .4 deduction. He left out the entire combo.

  12. #537
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post

    To me, this difference is greater than the better artistry/interpretation.
    I've always been a fan of rewarding skaters who execute higher difficulty (the highest difficulty in this case -- I mean we wouldn't see 3 quads in the FS for another decade!) to maintain the sport aspect of figure skating and I think on that day theatrics beat out technical.
    Really? I have not noticed ... In two Plushy's threads you wrote absolute different opinions, you always changed it, depending what you want to prove..

  13. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Really? I have not noticed ... In two Plushy's threads you wrote absolute different opinions, you always changed it, depending what you want to prove..
    Where did I do that? If you're referring to Plushenko in 2010, I agree that he should have won the 2010 Olympics from a technical standpoint, and would have under 6.0 (which is the system under which I made my comments regarding Goebel in 2002)... but under the rules of CoP it's apparent that he hadn't maximized his programs points-wise, allowing Lysacek to win. In 2002 Olympics (in 6.0 era), Plushenko did less quads and had more errors than Goebel, which should have been bronze-worthy, IMO. Just like 1 quad should beat 0 quads (Vancouver 2010), I don't see why 3 quads with a stepout shouldn't beat 2 quads with a stepout and a doubled jump. Obviously others can disagree but I fail to see how I'm contradicting myself.

  14. #539
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Where did I do that? If you're referring to Plushenko in 2010, I agree that he should have won the 2010 Olympics from a technical standpoint, and would have under 6.0 (which is the system under which I made my comments regarding Goebel in 2002)... but under the rules of CoP it's apparent that he hadn't maximized his programs points-wise, allowing Lysacek to win. In 6.0 era, Plushenko did less quads and had more errors than Goebel, which should have been bronze-worthy, IMO. Obviously others can disagree but I fail to see how I'm contradicting myself.

  15. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Aren't you glad that 6.0 was gone forever?! I can't believe anyone think that 6.0 is better than CoP!
    Ordinal judging is better for a sport that is judged. Add-up-the-points is better for a sport that is measured.

    The purpose of judging is to say, this skater was best (not most), and that skater was better {not more) than the third.

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