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Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Ordinal judging is better for a sport that is judged. Add-up-the-points is better for a sport that is measured.

    The purpose of judging is to say, this skater was best (not most), and that skater was better {not more) than the third.

    Ordinal judging has always been questionable (particularly in singles) and you see judges do the sneakiest things -- like the first judge in the 2002 men's freeskate who put all three Russian men as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and slotted Elredge in 4th in an effort to push down Honda and Goebel, perhaps hoping to sneak Abt ahead of one of them. You think that judge (obviously a Russian judge) got a talking to? Also if you look at the other ordinals down the line, you'll see crazy inconsistencies (Abt was ranked 3rd and 11th, Joubert was ranked 8th and 15th; in women's, Hughes was ranked 10th by one judge in the SP and Fumie was between 4th and 13th).

    Ordinals can be easily be manipulated by shifting technical and artistic scores up and down. It's starting to be done with PCS, where a seemingly slight change here and there actually can make a considerable difference.

    In ice dance ordinals are the worst... they ensure that if all teams stay upright essentially a pre-determined order wins the day.

    As you said the purpose of judging is to ensure who did what the best. But the points are in place to ensure that if you did the most (difficulty/content-wise), then that will definitely contribute to your standing instead of being simply being puppets of a subjective judging panel. Even if judges play favourites, their impact is considerably less significant under CoP and that's the way it should be.

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I might have had Honda over him for the bronze even without a successful quad as he did every triple perfectly,
    Okay, I loved Honda's program, but if you're suggesting that it should have been placed higher than Goebel's you're really as deluded as when you thought that Goebel hadn't done a clean triple axel in his FS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEbsdvX6lEo&t=1m21s).

    Goebel FS: 3Z, 4S+3T, 3A+2T, 4T, 3A(so), 4S, 3F, 3L (8 jumping passes; 3 quads, 6 triples)
    Honda FS: 3F, 4T(so), 3A+2T, 3S, 3A, 3L, 3Z(e) (7 jumping passes; 1 quad, 6 triples)

    Honda had a lovely program with a great 3F and second 3A... but he also just attempted one quad - that he stepped out of - to Goebel's three clean quads, had an inferior 3A-2T to Goebel's, flutzed his 3Z, his planned 4S was turned into a 3S, he had one less jumping pass that could have been any triple (other than the axel) yet he omitted it, he had only one jump combination, no 3-3 or 4-3, and he had less rotations on his spins than Goebel.

  3. #543
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    I'm waiting for your critics, CSG! I found this not so long ago, I think it is incredible virtuoso performance..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLVaQGV2BI

  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I'm waiting for your critics, CSG! I found this not so long ago, I think it is incredible virtuoso performance..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLVaQGV2BI
    It's a well-skated performance. Jumps and spins (particularly the Biellmann, a true Biellmann and donut spin) were great. The footwork I enjoyed too and he didn't take many breaks either but maintained speed. I found his arm movements to be not very refined and quite stiff/mechanical though (even if they were in time with the music sometimes it looked like he was doing the 'robot'). I know Khatchaturyan's Sabre Dance is a classic piece but I also really can't stand that music (I picture circus folks juggling or doing a balancing act, not figure skaters). I'm sorry, but I simply can't appreciate the way you do, but I'm sure he appreciates your calling it a virtuoso performance.

  5. #545
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    In the FS, Goebel didn't get any favours from the judges as well and got 5.6/5.7's technically which was absolutely appalling, considering he had skated the most ambitious technical program (in terms of 3 quads, 2 axels) and executed it almost flawlessly... one judge actually put him in 5th (and all three Russians in 1-2-3... hm, wonder who that judge was ).
    I believe that would be the Australian judge, Wendy Langton.

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Do you want quad combo to get even higher points than it has already been given? I mean do you want quad combo to have higher than 14.40 BV points?
    Yeah maybe like a Point more for putting those together! Or maybe like a halfway point style multiple.

  7. #547
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    No one took more of a break than goebel before that third quad. Thats why his tech mark wasn't as good.

  8. #548
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    Maybe one of the GOE points for jumps could be if the jump is particularly difficult (a quad-triple or 3A-triple combo, or a series with 3F or 3Z with half-loop into a 3S or 3F) it's automatically gets a GOE boost of 1 grade higher than what the judge would otherwise give it (so a stepout on 3F-3T would get -2, -1's, but a stepout on a 3A-3T would get -1's and 0's in theory). Theoretically a bonus is already applied in that the GOE for quads and 3As are on a scale of +/- 1, 2, 3, instead of +/- 0.7, 1.4, 2.1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I believe that would be the Australian judge, Wendy Langton.
    Wow that is rather surprising. I would have for sure thought it was a Russian. Regardless, putting Goebel and Honda in 5th and 6th behind Abt and Elredge was ridiculous.

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    No one took more of a break than goebel before that third quad. Thats why his tech mark wasn't as good.
    He executed a quad salchow in the second half of his program. That would (and should) have only helped his technical mark. He was the only guy to attempt 3 quads, land 3 quads, and attempt/land a quad in the 2nd half... and this is after having done two triple axels as well.

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Ordinal judging has always been questionable...
    I cannot see that CoP is better in this regard.

    Also if you look at the other ordinals down the line, you'll see crazy inconsistencies (Abt was ranked 3rd and 11th, Joubert was ranked 8th and 15th; in women's, Hughes was ranked 10th by one judge in the SP and Fumie was between 4th and 13th).
    That is the nature of judging. That is why you have a large panel.

    As you said the purpose of judging is to ensure who did what the best. But the points are in place to ensure that if you did the most...
    That is the distinction I am trying to draw. Best = ordinals. Most = decimal numbers.

    Sixth place is better than seventh place. 145.26 is more than 129.83.

    Of course, there is the view that more is better than less:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48-tcRiBNj4

  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That is the distinction I am trying to draw. Best = ordinals. Most = decimal numbers.

    Sixth place is better than seventh place. 145.26 is more than 129.83.
    Yup, figure skating should be about who does the most the best. Somebody can attempt a lot but if they execute it poorly it's not good. Just like somebody can attempt easy programs and execute it great, but that shouldn't be regarded highly either. Another problem is that judges already have in their minds where a skater should be and where they should be with errors. There's no way that a skater like Kwan or Yagudin would end up out of the top 7, even with a few errors, because the judge is like "Clean = 1st, minor error = 3rd, fall = 4th, multiple falls, 6th". They obviously keep track of how they've previously scored other skaters and bear that in mind when doling out their marks. But when they control both the technical and artistic mark with such impact, they can use a sliding scale of higher presentation marks to prop up favourites, and hold down lesser skaters with clean programs by scaling down their artistic marks but still giving average technical marks (where those skaters with mistakes would get bad technical marks).

    With ordinal judging a judge can say, "Oh, my favourite skater didn't have a good FS, but I still want them high in the standings... okay, so I'll just give them slightly higher presentation marks than I normally would but drop down their technical mark so people see I made deductions. Actually, I'll tie them with this lesser skater who skated skated cleanly on Tech+Pres total, but I'll give the higher artistic mark to the skater I like so they win the tie-breaker." A judge really can manipulate skaters relative to each other as freely in the CoP system than the 6.0 system.

    Of course, there's also PCS boosts, but at least technically I think the ISU has solved rewarding skaters who do the most (rewarding skaters who do the best will always be a subjective point of contention).

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Wow that is rather surprising. I would have for sure thought it was a Russian. Regardless, putting Goebel and Honda in 5th and 6th behind Abt and Elredge was ridiculous.
    Actually, I do not see much to criticize in the judging. It was the second mark that cost Goebel most with the judges from Australia, Finland and Azerbaijan. This is fair enough. Honda and Eldredge were far better second mark skaters (although Goebel improved quite a bit once he started working with Lori Nichol).

    There was no Russian judge on the panel, but I think the Ukranian judge was actually Russian by nationality. He gave Plushenko 5.8, 5.8, and Goebel 5.8, 5.7. The two countries that scored Goebel the highest technically were the United States and Romania. There is more to the technical mark than adding up the number of revolutions the skater does in the air. Goebel's placements in the LP were 5th,4th,3rd,3rd,3rd,3rd,3rd,3rd, and 3rd. This is about as close to a unanimous verdict as we are likely to achieve in ordinal judging.

    I wouldn't say that Yagudin "mopped up the ice" with anyone. He skated a conservative program with (if I remember correctly) only one quad and one triple Axel. Where he came out ahead is in what we would now call GOE. Each of his elements, jumps and otherwise, were of excellent quality.

  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    With ordinal judging a judge can say, "Oh, my favourite skater didn't have a good FS, but I still want them high in the standings... okay, so I'll just give them slightly higher presentation marks than I normally would but drop down their technical mark so people see I made deductions. Actually, I'll tie them with this lesser skater who skated skated cleanly on Tech+Pres total, but I'll give the higher artistic mark to the skater I like so they win the tie-breaker." A judge really can manipulate skaters relative to each other as freely in the CoP system than the 6.0 system.
    I can't tell if you are describing the old system or the new here.

  14. #554
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    OK, new question, sort of. . . It is assumed that judges are encouraged to be friendly to the Olympic host country's skaters, which would give Plushenko a political advantage. We can also assume that the judges are all aware of the criticism they have received this season for Chan's high PCS. So how many points can we expect as an "adjustment" to the PCS scores between Chan (- ?) and Plushenko (+?), regardless of how well they skate?

  15. #555
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ IMHO it is still up to the skaters. I don't think Pushenko will get extra points just for showing up and being Plushenko. He will have to skate for it.

    Same with Chan, If he skates his best, he will get high PCS no matter what country is in. But I think the judges will not be generous with PCS if he falls and flubs. I do not expect that the ISU and the judges will let anyone back into the gold medal. They are certainly hoping that at least someone brings his A game so they don't have to just give the OGM away.

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