Page 39 of 51 FirstFirst ... 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 ... LastLast
Results 571 to 585 of 753

Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #571
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    2,895
    Yes.
    1. Yuna
    2. Johnny
    3. Plush + Plush has https://twitter.com/PlushenkoNewsRu -in Russian language 33.716 followers

  2. #572
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    2,895
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    You cannot really compare a skater whose career has unfortunately been cut short with a skater who has a longlasting career. I've seen almost all Plushenko's programs. Yagudin was definitely better in artistic abilities, in posture, and in emotion. Plushenko is better in jumps compare with Yagudin. One thing I do know is that they both are like ironman. I adore both of them, and so do many other skating fans!
    OK. Everybody has own opinion. For me, Yag is an amazing skater, but Plush is a genius.

  3. #573
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,660
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    This is going to be a big ask considering the guys are now attempting more difficult programs as a whole... 2 quads and 2 axels is much harder to execute when you've got complex spins, harder choreo/transitions, and footwork to think about. I'm hoping the OGM winner is clean or near clean (whoever he is), but I'm anticipating errors given the pressure of the event and inconsistencies in the field as a whole...
    I think someone could pull a Lysacek. Scale back to a program that the skater can actually skate and win by delivering the goods. If everyone falls on their multiple quads and gets flummoxed by their complex spins, transitions and choreography, that will give Olympic figure skating a black eye. I believe that the figure skating establishment is shooting itself in the foot by turning ever inward (where it loves itself) instead of outward (where it is fading from public interest).

  4. #574
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,285
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think someone could pull a Lysacek. Scale back to a program that the skater can actually skate and win by delivering the goods. If everyone falls on their multiple quads and gets flummoxed by their complex spins, transitions and choreography, that will give Olympic figure skating a black eye. I believe that the figure skating establishment is shooting itself in the foot by turning ever inward (where it loves itself) instead of outward (where it is fading from public interest).
    It's tricky... obviously the guys can scale back and everyone skates clean and the highest artistic guys win, and figure skating maintains a pristine public image. Someone like Takahashi can do no quad (since it gives him issues) and two triple axels or Chan can do two quads and no triple axel (since it gives him issues). The "general public" audience will just see that they stayed on their feet -- if a skater with 7 triples and 1 double axel goes clean, it will be regarded by the public as a "better program" than a skater with 3 quads and 6 triples, who falls once ("if they fell, they should be ranked lower, right?"). Even though a knowledgable skating audience would acknowledge the 2nd skater had way more difficulty and, even with a fall, they would likely regard that program much higher.

    So then the question becomes, should skaters do clean programs to get the approval of the audience or should they attempt difficult programs that challenge themselves and move the sport along, even if it poses greater risks to not skating clean?

  5. #575
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,660
    Historically, Olympic Gold Medalists have skated difficult programs that challenged themselves and moved the sport along, while skating cleanly and with attention to artistry and with crowd-pleasing performance values. It would be sad to think that the sport has devolved to the point where now only one or the other, but not both, are possible -- a point where the Olympic Gold Medal is decided by whether we decide to deduct one point or a point-and-a-half per fall from the winner's total.

  6. #576
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    428
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It's tricky... obviously the guys can scale back and everyone skates clean and the highest artistic guys win, and figure skating maintains a pristine public image. Someone like Takahashi can do no quad (since it gives him issues) and two triple axels or Chan can do two quads and no triple axel (since it gives him issues). The "general public" audience will just see that they stayed on their feet -- if a skater with 7 triples and 1 double axel goes clean, it will be regarded by the public as a "better program" than a skater with 3 quads and 6 triples, who falls once ("if they fell, they should be ranked lower, right?"). Even though a knowledgable skating audience would acknowledge the 2nd skater had way more difficulty and, even with a fall, they would likely regard that program much higher.

    So then the question becomes, should skaters do clean programs to get the approval of the audience or should they attempt difficult programs that challenge themselves and move the sport along, even if it poses greater risks to not skating clean?
    And the next question is, can Chan predict what he's going to fall on in any given competition and just take it out of the program? At Worlds, he fell on a 3Lz, and he has been known to fall on transitional moves. . .

  7. #577
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,740
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Historically, Olympic Gold Medalists have skated difficult programs that challenged themselves and moved the sport along, while skating cleanly and with attention to artistry and with crowd-pleasing performance values. It would be sad to think that the sport has devolved to the point where now only one or the other, but not both, are possible -- a point where the Olympic Gold Medal is decided by whether we decide to deduct one point or a point-and-a-half per fall from the winner's total.
    People on both sides complain; some don't like that clean, less difficult programs win (Lysacek) while others don't like difficulty with multiple falls winning (Chan). The guys that skate clean programs don't "skate" well enough to challenge Chan, like Dennis.

    For me, I'd like to see the good skating and difficulty rewarded only when the skater skates clean. For example, I'd don't like that a skater can get -2 GOE for a fall just because he did a difficult entrance. He should get the full penalty, and only get rewarded if he completed the element successfully. I think if the sport moved towards rewarding clean skates, you would see skaters like Chan taking out some of the difficulty to focus on completing clean triples and quadruples. I'd love to see that, whereas others I think prefer the difficult transitions regardless of how the technical elements are performed.

  8. #578
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,285
    I think that Chan should remove transitions leading into his lutz to focus more going into it. Although I think there are a few other skaters who have in the past year had trouble with lutzes occasionally like Hanyu and Plushenko. It's a simple adjustment and probably a focus thing (like when skaters turn jumps to doubles). All of these guys can do 3Z in their sleep (for a while Chan actually had such a solid lutz that he would make it part of his 3S series). I think these are some freak circumstances that will be ironed out come Sochi when skaters will be more focused and not let silly errors happen as often as they have. Particularly with Chan his errors have been mainly on easy things - like his 2A or a spin... simple things that aren't due to him being unable to execute them, but because he loses the focus to do so. I think Chan's losses and close calls this season will be a welcome wake up call for him... I anticipate him being much more determined and focused in Sochi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Historically, Olympic Gold Medalists have skated difficult programs that challenged themselves and moved the sport along, while skating cleanly and with attention to artistry and with crowd-pleasing performance values. It would be sad to think that the sport has devolved to the point where now only one or the other, but not both, are possible -- a point where the Olympic Gold Medal is decided by whether we decide to deduct one point or a point-and-a-half per fall from the winner's total.
    Actually I think it's because the sport has evolved that it's rarer to see a performance that has exceptional jumping difficulty but intricate choreography and spins, but still selling a performance. That's the challenge of skating these days. For a while men shied away from quads and focused on having to improve other areas of their skating, and I think now the guys are more on par with each other. Of course, we want to see a clean Olympic Gold Medal skate, but with the difficulty that is now the standard, it really comes down to who gets it together, whereas in the past you could picture several skaters going clean, and then it comes down to the better performance and smaller details like stronger spins/footwork being secondary factors distinguishing similarly jumped programs.

  9. #579
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,660
    I guess my problem is that I do not particularly appreciate the idea of doing something in a difficult way just so I can say that I did it in a difficult way. If I hopped on one foot to work tomorrow, that would be difficult. But I would not expect praise for doing so. In skating, there are many ways to make something harder to do. Please don't, OK? Just do your quad; don't do it out of a head stand for an extra 0.25 CoP points.

  10. #580
    Custom Title LRK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    2,413
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I guess my problem is that I do not particularly appreciate the idea of doing something in a difficult way just so I can say that I did it in a difficult way. If I hopped on one foot to work tomorrow, that would be difficult. But I would not expect praise for doing so. In skating, there are many ways to make something harder to do. Please don't, OK? Just do your quad; don't do it out of a head stand for an extra 0.25 CoP points.
    Hear, hear!

  11. #581
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    2,188
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm sure the judges believed they scored him correctly at Worlds

    To the crowd and fans it matters that Ten won (and he should have), ... but points-wise it wasn't going to amount to Ten winning.
    So what is your purpose? The judges go their way and "stupid audience that are French", fans (and you with your "he should have") take another pass? Is it what your demagogic propaganda all about?

    What I don't get is why. 100 years old ISU VIPs are obviously not in the right mental health conditions to think straight. Chan will end up worse than Madame Sale with mouthing her bitterness all around in a cheap wedding dress. All this stuff called "CoP" that granted two Chan's World wins that were not accepted by fans, professionals and colleagues make no sense at all except losers' jealousy (like to real great guys like Plu) and petty vanity of fair.

  12. #582
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,285
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I guess my problem is that I do not particularly appreciate the idea of doing something in a difficult way just so I can say that I did it in a difficult way. If I hopped on one foot to work tomorrow, that would be difficult. But I would not expect praise for doing so. In skating, there are many ways to make something harder to do. Please don't, OK? Just do your quad; don't do it out of a head stand for an extra 0.25 CoP points.
    I agree! But skaters do a lot of superfluous things for an extra 0.25-0.5 points ... you get female skaters who do a contorted Biellman for a level 4, you get bad spinners holding spins for ages to get 8 rotations, you get footwork sequences that go on for ages. The thing is, skaters don't do something in a difficult way to say they did it in a difficult way; they do it because this system gives them credit for it. Otherwise everyone would be doing simple, easy elements which would make for a great performance visually, but not be particularly challenging. Transitions before a jump add to the GOE on the jump as well as adds to your programs transitions for extra points. So if a skater can do the transitions, they will attempt it. A skater can also choose to take out those transitions or opt for simpler transitions but will not be as rewarded. I, for one, would hate it if we went back to the days of skaters stalking their jumps or gliding 20 m on their lutz edge. Jumps should look seamlessly integrated into a program. But there's also something to be said about cluttering a program with too much in-betweens.

  13. #583
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,008
    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    OK. Everybody has own opinion. For me, Yag is an amazing skater, but Plush is a genius.
    I fail to see why is he genius? The ugly biellmann spin which no men's skaters had ever done until Plushenko? (Yeah, I know, after Plushenko, there are several other young skaters have done it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    100 years old ISU VIPs are obviously not in the right mental health conditions to think straight.
    How are you sure that it is not the other way round?

  14. #584
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,285
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I fail to see why is he genius? The ugly biellmann spin which no men's skaters had ever done until Plushenko? (Yeah, I know, after Plushenko, there are several other young skaters have done it.)
    Yeah, genius refers to being creative, original, and avant garde in ways that haven't been seen before. There's nothing particularly genius I find about Plushenko's actual choreography or his programs. That being said, his jumping consistency is the best of all time and his footwork is usually excellent. I'd call him a master, but I wouldn't call him a "genius" in the way that word is conventionally used.

  15. #585
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I guess my problem is that I do not particularly appreciate the idea of doing something in a difficult way just so I can say that I did it in a difficult way. If I hopped on one foot to work tomorrow, that would be difficult. But I would not expect praise for doing so. In skating, there are many ways to make something harder to do. Please don't, OK? Just do your quad; don't do it out of a head stand for an extra 0.25 CoP points.
    Well, if it is counted as an Olympic sport, hop on one foot to work will for sure be praised and valued. It all depends on whether or not it is pushing the boundary. As a sport, it got to have something to show the limit of human abilities, such as quad in men and 3A in ladies.

Page 39 of 51 FirstFirst ... 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •