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Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    How are you sure that it is not the other way round?
    How predictable. What a Chan uber without personal attack and lousy attempt of being insulting. Which is nothing unusual and in fact rather logical since their idol is the worst trashy talking mouth in fs history. If he acts like that to the audience, fans, skaters, why his fans should have better manners or behave smarter.

    If ISU would be strategic and intelligent at least a bit, then this sport wouldn't be dealing with declining popularity and with champions that are getting laughed off by the community itself, not saying about fans of other sports.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Yeah, genius refers to being creative, original, and avant garde in ways that haven't been seen before.
    His Majesty of Butt Era is surey "genius" because no one ever could win major titles zamboni-ing the ice and win repeatedly. I hope he will be the only "genius" of this kind in this sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    his fans should have better manners or behave smarter.
    Practice what you preach.

    (Awaiting your typical, repetitive, played-out response about "homologating the demagoguery of the butt troll era of zambonis". )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I fail to see why is he genius? The ugly biellmann spin which no men's skaters had ever done until Plushenko? (Yeah, I know, after Plushenko, there are several other young skaters have done it.)
    CSG:
    "Yeah, genius refers to being creative, original, and avant garde in ways that haven't been seen before."

    Well, I try to answer:
    Mishin:
    "I think there hasn't been yet a figure skater in the world, who has such a wide diapason of creativity as Evgeni. That’s what makes him absolutely unique in modern figure skating."

    Plushenko is the master of skating's bold statement. His jumps and spins are big and dramatic and approached with unapologetic flair. His artistic side, which at first leaned heavily toward classical, broadened to include humour and pathos.

    creativity: He is the author of many elements that are included in modern skating programs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeni_Plushenko

    original and avant garde: His style is unique, unmistakable. He is diverse, he showed us every emotions in his programs. What is avant garde, if not the Asissai? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzZCc5nQ8-E

    + my supplements:

    determination: is not questionable

    longevity: unique, he proved he really is a legend. He was a teenager, kid when he started to win competitions, and year after year your are amazed by his consistency. He gave so much to figure skating.

    charisma: he has the magic touch with the audience. T. Verner: "And it's without mentioning of Evgeni Plushenko - probably the only one skater in the world, capable alone to filed full arena."

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    CSG:
    What is avant garde, if not the Asissai? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzZCc5nQ8-E
    to Plushenko for having the guts to do this program and not being afraid of the "gay" tag.

  5. #590
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    to Plushenko for having the guts to do this program and not being afraid of the "gay" tag.
    Probably because he is not gay. He loves the women and the women love him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    bestskate8 is almost as visibly pro Plushenko as CanadianSkaterGuy is outrageously pro Chan/anti Plushenko.
    With some people, you have to talk on their language, then there is a hope, they MIGHT understand you.
    CSG one of those people.


    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post

    I don't really have to defend myself, particularly when you've been far more anti-Chan than I've been anti-Plushenko, but I've said positive and negative things about both Chan and Plushenko. It's not "anti-Plushenko" and "pro-Chan" if I counter somebody saying something outrageous as Chan needs 3 quads and 2 triple axels to defeat a Plushenko with 1 quad. I acknowledge things like Plushenko having greater presence on the ice, excellent jumping consistency (moreso in the past than now), and having vastly improved his choreography since 2010. But I also acknowledge Chan still having better skating skills, harder jump layout, better spins and better movements and choreography in between elements. There are other posters on this board who are more on the absolute ends of the spectrum when it comes to loving or hating certain skaters. Obviously I like Chan more than Plushenko, but that doesn't mean I don't criticize things about Chan nor laud things about Plushenko.
    that is really questionable, especially skating skills, even jumps layout Plushenko has harder not Chan, two quads and two 3A LP, did Chan ever done this in LP? and clean? Spins Plushenko has the edge, better centered, better variety, especially camel, and choreography is a subjective thing. Plushenko's choreography does magic at the arena you really need to watch him live to see the difference with Chan.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Well, arguably, Goebel was robbed of the silver in SLC. He was superior to Plushenko certainly in the SP where Plushenko fell, and he thoroughly outjumped Plushenko in the LP. Plushenko's presentation was better but certainly shouldn't have been so much better to have denied Goebel a higher placement (the judges certainly robbed Goebel in the technical marks, one judge giving Goebel a 5.6 with 3 quads and just a step out on the second 3A, and another giving Plushenko a 5.9 with a stepout and a doubled jump). Even in the SP - the technical program - some judges gave him 3rd place ordinals with a fall over Goebel's clean 4S+3T/3A/3F program.
    Please don't start this, you know better how much Goebel prerotated his 4s

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    The CoP argument was to actually quantify just how much more jump content Goebel had in the overall competition over Plushenko, in both segments. It also shows how grossly held up Plushenko was in the SP, placing 4th after a fall and no combination. If anything, he's lucky the 2002 Olympics was pre-CoP because no matter how much PCS he was given by the judges, he would have been buried in the SP, and likely would have lost the LP to Goebel considering his jump disadvantage. Only under 6.0 would he get 5.9 technical merit for a stepout and a doubled jump, not to mention 5.9's for artistry in his SP when that fall was brutal.
    Finally God will hear you in Sochi! and if Chan will have a fall in SP, he will be placed below fourth place! Behind clean Rymond, Hanyu, Bzhezina..
    You brought up a karma by mudding Plushenko down to SLC. Hope God will hear all your "prayers". Just amaizing..Great job!

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    He executed a quad salchow in the second half of his program. That would (and should) have only helped his technical mark. He was the only guy to attempt 3 quads, land 3 quads, and attempt/land a quad in the 2nd half... and this is after having done two triple axels as well.
    this is what Chan needs to do to have a chance to beat Plushenko in Sochi, because Plushenko now even more amaizing then in 2002

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    And in the first time in history Goebel landed 3 quads in a FS and 4 quads over the course of the competition, which to me is much more impressive (not that a 3A-3F or 4-3-3, even with stepout, aren't impressive themselves). Plushyfan, you always refer to people's comments in Youtube videos as evidence of how much people love Plushenko. So in Youtube videos where the comments talk about Goebel deserving silver all of a sudden those comments don't mean anything?
    Goebel's 4s all badly prerotated, he did more than half turn on the ice. Judges knew that
    It was good enough for bronze only, of course 3.5s is better the 3s

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    The only jump edge Goebel had over Plushenko in the SLC LP was his quad salchows. Plushenko attempted an incredible quad toe-triple toe-triple loop, cleanly doing the quad-triple and making a great attempt of the quad-triple-triple, just two footing the last triple, and also did a better solo quad toe than Goebel's only quad toe. Triple axels between the two is a joke. Plushenko did an amazing triple axel-triple flip sequence, and a 2nd beautiful triple axel. Goebel did a smallish triple axel-double toe with his funny axel technique, and stepped out of his other triple axel. Plushenko did a very good triple lutz, while Goebel did a small fugly triple flutz. The triple flip and triple loops were used in the super difficult combinations I already discussed for Plushenko while Goebel did them solo. Both used the triple toe in a very difficult combination successfully as noted. Goebel did a triple salchow and Plushenko doubled it, so I guess that is his only other small jumping edge, but basically on everything from the quad toe down to the triple loop (and yes two footing a triple loop try at the end of a quad toe-triple toe is better than just an ok solo triple loop in my book) Plushenko crushes Goebel, and Goebel did salchows better and nothing else, LOL! So not sure on what planet Goebel thoroughly outjumped Plushenko. Although on the planet one might live where Goebel thoroughly outjumped Plushenko, I guess that would prove how strong Plushenko is in artistic, spins, and all other areas in this sport a certain troll has dismissed him as so weak, considering he still very easily beat him despite that supposed fact.

    Lets face it without his quad salchow, Goebel would be a nobody in the sport. Even his jumps wouldnt stand out amongst the pack. He had great quad salchows and quad toes, but many guys even in his prime could do quad toes like like him or better, his triple axel was mediocre at best and nowhere near the other top guys or top jumpers, and his other triples were all always small, poor technique, and poor quality; and I wont even get into the rest of his skating as that would just be mean to do. Under COP btw Goebel would get low GOE on almost all his jumps besides the quad salchows and quad toes, and he always URed and prerotated many of his jumps; even and in fact especialy his famed quads, so would lose lots of points, and even his jumps wouldnt likely garner a good quota of points vs other top skaters under COP. This is in sharp contrast to Plushenko who almost never underrotates his jumps or gets downgrades and certainly needed no help with prerotation to do his quads. We all saw how when COP came in, Goebel's career basically suddenly ended, and he made one last U.S World team in 2005 only since the U.S chose to use the 6.0 system that year. Lets also face it, had the Olympics been out of the U.S even the few homers who try to argue anything for Goebel would be silent completely, and Goebel would have been lucky to even be 3rd ahead of Honda.

    It is quite telling to ones intellect and desperation level that they would use what people on youtube (snickers) to try and propose what the general sane population might think of anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post

    this is what Chan needs to do to have a chance to beat Plushenko in Sochi, because Plushenko now even more amaizing then in 2002
    Yes, but he isn't as young and healthy as he was back then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    How predictable. What a Chan uber without personal attack and lousy attempt of being insulting. Which is nothing unusual and in fact rather logical since their idol is the worst trashy talking mouth in fs history. If he acts like that to the audience, fans, skaters, why his fans should have better manners or behave smarter.
    Can you find a single word from my post that was remotely "insulting"?! No! The words were all coming from your own post. When your own words were used back on yourself, you felt insulting, you were insulting others in the first place. So simple!

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Well, I try to answer:
    Mishin:
    "I think there hasn't been yet a figure skater in the world, who has such a wide diapason of creativity as Evgeni. That’s what makes him absolutely unique in modern figure skating."
    I don't think what Mishin thinks about his own star-skater is anything credibly to prove the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Plushenko is the master of skating's bold statement. His jumps and spins are big and dramatic and approached with unapologetic flair.
    He makes bold statement often, yes. He was the first one who did a successful 4-3-3 in competition. But every skater has his own ways to approach the jumps and spins. That doesn't make him an outstanding jumper and/or spinner in the quad club. In fact Plushenko had long been refered to as a "weak spinner" by Dick Button up to 2006 Olympics. He couldn't sit down low enough for his spin. I don't know if anyone remembered that there were often discussions on this board about his weak spins before his 2010 comeback. Plushenko knew his weakness on spins. He had focused on improving it. It is worth applause that they were much better in his 2010 comeback season. So he was not leading the spin. He was chasing the spin.

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    His artistic side, which at first leaned heavily toward classical, broadened to include humour and pathos.
    That doesn't say anything about his "geniusness". It has only explained his artistic approach change. Nothing special.

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    creativity: He is the author of many elements that are included in modern skating programs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeni_Plushenko
    Many skaters were authors of many movements that have been named in modern skating. I could easily list more than a dozen skaters who have created new movements. Plushenko is not standing out in that pack.

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    original and avant garde: His style is unique, unmistakable. He is diverse, he showed us every emotions in his programs. What is avant garde, if not the Asissai? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzZCc5nQ8-E
    Again that is not Plushenko's unique quality. The samething could be easily said to every single top skater which means over a dozen or two skaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    + my supplements:

    determination: is not questionable

    longevity: unique, he proved he really is a legend. He was a teenager, kid when he started to win competitions, and year after year your are amazed by his consistency. He gave so much to figure skating.
    Longevity record belongs to Plushenko. No doubt! His determination is truly admirable!

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    charisma: he has the magic touch with the audience. T. Verner: "And it's without mentioning of Evgeni Plushenko - probably the only one skater in the world, capable alone to filed full arena."
    His powerful, firelike charisma is not the only thing that could be called charisma. It is just one of a kind of charisma. So it does not prove the genius claim.

  11. #596
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    to BB!
    I would have been surprised if you agree with me. But what I wrote is not just my opinion, you can deny on this page, but you can't erase people's mind.
    About Mishin, the whole quote:
    I was asked many times: "You have such bright students as Urmanov, Yagudin, Plushenko. What is the difference between them?" I think Urmanov was perhaps the most elegant skater. Yagudin was the strongest physically and may be most emotional. ( If I right remember, this was your opinion, too) But I think there hasn't been yet a figure skater in the world, who has such a wide diapason of creativity as Evgeni. That’s what makes him absolutely unique in modern figure skating.
    Mishin is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    Finally God will hear you in Sochi! and if Chan will have a fall in SP, he will be placed below fourth place! Behind clean Rymond, Hanyu, Bzhezina..
    You brought up a karma by mudding Plushenko down to SLC. Hope God will hear all your "prayers". Just amaizing..Great job!

    this is what Chan needs to do to have a chance to beat Plushenko in Sochi, because Plushenko now even more amaizing then in 2002

    Goebel's 4s all badly prerotated, he did more than half turn on the ice. Judges knew that
    It was good enough for bronze only, of course 3.5s is better the 3s
    Yes, because God controls figure skaters and the outcome of skating competitions.

    If you think Plushenko is more amazing than in 2002 to a point where Chan needs three quads then there's really no explaining any further to you how off that statement is. As much as you want to say Plushenko's the best, etc. etc. the numbers show that it's in fact HE who will have to increase his technical content to contend with Chan and the other top guys.

    Goebel's quads were not badly pre-rotated, otherwise the ISU wouldn't have ratified him as having the first FS with 3 clean quads. Not to mention, salchow jumps *are* pre-rotated on the ice, that's part of the technique of the jump. Look at 3:45 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21woRiBqrks&t=3m40s), if you pause it at the moment of takeoff, you'll see that the blade is pointing almost forward before the skater actually leaves the ice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    to BB!
    I would have been surprised if you agree with me. But what I wrote is not just my opinion, you can deny on this page, but you can't erase people's mind.
    About Mishin, the whole quote:
    I was asked many times: "You have such bright students as Urmanov, Yagudin, Plushenko. What is the difference between them?" I think Urmanov was perhaps the most elegant skater. Yagudin was the strongest physically and may be most emotional. ( If I right remember, this was your opinion, too) But I think there hasn't been yet a figure skater in the world, who has such a wide diapason of creativity as Evgeni. That’s what makes him absolutely unique in modern figure skating.
    Mishin is right.
    Had Yagudin stayed with Mishin until he retired, I'm sure he would not have become the beloved skater in the world like he has been. Mind you, there were similar statement from Tatiana Tarasova talking about Yagudin's geniusness. And Tarasova had mentioned that Plushenko often under rotate his jumps. Well, we all know that under 6.0, under rotation was not picked as closely as under CoP. Should I use them against Mishin's statement?

    I'd say Tarasova was right

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Had Yagudin stayed with Mishin until he retired, I'm sure he would not have become the beloved skater in the world like he has been. Mind you, there were similar statement from Tatiana Tarasova talking about Yagudin's geniusness. And Tarasova had mentioned that Plushenko often under rotate his jumps. Well, we all know that under 6.0, under rotation was not picked as closely as under CoP. Should I use them against Mishin's statement?

    I'd say Tarasova was right
    OMG! I read on this page, that Plushy has the best jump technic, and what a surprised! "he often underrotated his jumps"....

    Tarasova is a fan of Plush today she always praises him.
    "I am astonished with the work of Evgeni Plushenko! I asked him to come on his practice. He told me that I can. And whole the training I stood - and cried. He surprised me. He shook me. They choose that kind of music, which he can reveal, which can raise him even higher. Zhenya is in terrific shape, exactly, physical shape. He spent a great job of examining every muscle of his body. And he has a great coach, who is engaged with him. I thank to Alexei Mishin for this titanic labor, which he continues. This is not an easy job. But Mishin made a good team. Invited wonderful choreographer. And not one. You know, it's like we are reading different books, becoming deeper and more interesting, so and Plushenko. In him is focused a lot of interesting knowledge. Plus, his grand talent. Although I think that in our figure skating has several singles that could reach him..."

    She was invited to Plushy's birthday party..but I have no doubt, she will work so hard- politically- against Plushy, because of Kovtun...

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    That was back in Yagudin vs. Plushenko days when Tarasova said it. Maybe Plushenko had that under rotation problems back then before and after 2002. Maybe under rotation has caused him a fall in SP in 2002 Olympics?

    I don't see Tarasova mention anything about geniusness. So please tell me, Plushyfan, who is more credible? Tarasova or Mishin?

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