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Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #601
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    That was back in Yagudin vs. Plushenko days when Tarasova said it. Maybe Plushenko had that under rotation problems back then before and after 2002. Maybe under rotation has caused him a fall in SP in 2002 Olympics?

    So please tell me, Plushyfan, who is more credible? Tarasova or Mishin?
    I think both of them

    Tarasova is a very smart woman, for me, the best choreographer. But she always knows what to say...
    The fall in SP 2002 isn't good example, because that was a totally wrong jump...

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I think both of them
    Still, you cannot prove your genius claim. Tarasova didn't mention anything about it. And she didn't talk about Yagudin there either. Plushenko is many things. But geniusness is not one of them.

    When people say genius, I'd relate this term to Kurt Brownings, John Curry, Dick Button, and the like who are truly outstanding.

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Still, you cannot prove your genius claim. Tarasova didn't mention anything about it. And she didn't talk about Yagudin there either. Plushenko is many things. But geniusness is not one of them.

    When people say genius, I'd relate this term to Kurt Brownings, John Curry, Dick Button, and the like.
    Of course.. for me, not. I love Kurt, but...nothing special, because the North-American skaters are a little bit similar for me...Dick he competed so long time ago, I don't care of him, sorry. John probably was very special, but I barely remember him, and he wasn't diverse..

    Plushy is a genius.

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Of course.. for me, not. I love Kurt, but...nothing special, because the North-American skaters are a little bit similar for me...Dick he competed so long time ago, I don't care of him, sorry. John probably was very special, but I barely remember him, and he wasn't diverse..

    Plushy is a genius.
    It gaves an impression that you have bias against North-American skaters. You have made the word "genius" down to a personal taste level rather than keep it on a general accomplishment and talent level. Well, whatever you think. It's your choice. I've seen that there is no reason for me to discuss this "geniusness" of your #1 favorite skater anymore. Only some, but not all, Plushy ubers think so. The rest of the people are more level headed on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    The fall in SP 2002 isn't good example, because that was a totally wrong jump...
    Why is it not a good example? Because it was too painful for plushy ubers? Or because it has just proved what Tarasova said was right? Maybe Plushenko 2002 SP's fall was not an coincident.

  5. #605
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    No, because it was a bad jump, totally..I think Tarasova didn't say about it.. Yes, that was painful for every Plushy's fan, I can't deny.

    I'm not bias against N-A skaters, much more like you against Plushy. Your list is also personal opinion, right?

  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Your list is also personal opinion, right?
    Not really. I think these three were universally hailed as genius. If I go further down the list, it might mix my personal opinions. So I won't. I could list, just on top of my head, that the skaters who were crowned "genius" at the time (not by me): Yagudin, Lambiel, Stojko, Hamilton, Abbott, Takahashi, Boitano, Cranston... and of course, your favorite skater Plushenko and your most disgusted skater Chan.

    Every elite skater is genius in a sense. Plushenko is no more genius than other elite skaters except that he has an ironman's body and ironman's will. I have no doubt that Yagudin has the same ironman's will but his body has failed him.

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    No, because it was a bad jump, totally..I think Tarasova didn't say about it.. Yes, that was painful for every Plushy's fan, I can't deny.

    I'm not bias against N-A skaters, much more like you against Plushy. Your list is also personal opinion, right?
    I agree with you that that particular quad isn't a good example of his capability to do quads, particularly when he landed two excellent ones in the FS. It's rare for him to under-rotate quads, let alone fall on them. That being said, it was a real botch up, because if there's ever a time you shouldn't fall on a quad, it's the SP at the Olympics.

    If you look at his quad in the past year or so, it's been landed, but hasn't been as clean or with as much speed/height as he has in the past -- it's kind of miraculous that he's still able to do them with his age/injuries. And coming back from injury now I really don't see how he'll be able to execute two clean quads in Sochi. His axel should be fine, as his technique has been good and even when he's off axis or something's wrong, he can save the jump moreso than he can with the quad. But two quads in an LP in 2014 which has harder choreography/spins/footwork will be a mountain of a task for him compared to two quads in 2002.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    OMG! I read on this page, that Plushy has the best jump technic, and what a surprised! "he often underrotated his jumps"....

    Tarasova is a fan of Plush today she always praises him.
    "I am astonished with the work of Evgeni Plushenko! I asked him to come on his practice. He told me that I can. And whole the training I stood - and cried. He surprised me. He shook me. They choose that kind of music, which he can reveal, which can raise him even higher. Zhenya is in terrific shape, exactly, physical shape. He spent a great job of examining every muscle of his body. And he has a great coach, who is engaged with him. I thank to Alexei Mishin for this titanic labor, which he continues. This is not an easy job. But Mishin made a good team. Invited wonderful choreographer. And not one. You know, it's like we are reading different books, becoming deeper and more interesting, so and Plushenko. In him is focused a lot of interesting knowledge. Plus, his grand talent. Although I think that in our figure skating has several singles that could reach him..."

    She was invited to Plushy's birthday party..but I have no doubt, she will work so hard- politically- against Plushy, because of Kovtun...
    Politics for kovtun may work against menshov and gachinski but kovtun is very bad. Worlds and wtt and also Russian nationals but also euros too shows kovtun can't compete against real talent like plushenko. Kovtun was last good at Junior grand prix final!! Double axels for triple at euros and 4 combos in a fs and a ridiculous 3t-1t combo in the worlds sp and a post halfway point collapase for the record books at worlds and a wtt performance that was bad in every way that can be seen in figure skating! Sorry but politics is not going to work for kovtun against plushenko! But maybe it will because kovtun shouldn't have gone anywhere after Russian nationals but amazingly and astonishingly has gone to euros worlds wtt just because tarasova is his coach and not because he has shown any capacity for skating in seniors. None.

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Politics for kovtun may work against menshov and gachinski but kovtun is very bad. Worlds and wtt and also Russian nationals but also euros too shows kovtun can't compete against real talent like plushenko. Kovtun was last good a. Junior grand prix final!! Double axels for triple at euros and 4 combos in a fs and a ridiculous 3t-1t combo in the worlds sp and a post halfway point collapase for the record books at worlds and a wtt performance that was bad in every way that can be seen in figure skating! Sorry but politics is nit going to work for kovtun against plushenko! But maybe it will because kovtun shouldn't have gone anywhere after Russian nationals but amazingly and astonishingly has gone to euros worlds wtt just because tarasova is his coach and not because he has shown any capacity for skating in seniors. None.
    I don't think it's fair to call Kovtun "very bad". He's a junior skater coming up (almost forced) into the senior ranks. At Euros he thoroughly outjumped Plushenko in the SP -- not even Plushenko in the past year has done a 4T-3T in the SP. Still he's unrefined and Plushenko is more talented, but that's like saying a young Plushenko in 1997/98 was less talented than Russians like Urmanov before he ended up developing more and surpassing/winning. Give him time.

    Politics won't work against Plushenko, but performance might... I can totally picture Kovtun having an excellent set of programs (including a FS with two quads) at the next Russian nationals and edging out Plushenko (if Plushenko makes enough mistakes). To me, Kovtun has the potential to be a better overall skater (if you consider the total package, not just jumps) than even Plushenko.

  10. #610
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    Kovtun did do a quad triple in the short in euros but then did a double axel. Plushenko did a 3/3 and then fell on a triple axel. Both are totally mediocre in different ways. Kovtun in seniors has shown no Ability at doing good short programs and good free skates together. I wouldn't say that he can be better then plushenko as he is showing no potential for that now in either jumping or artistry. He doesn't have the jumps nor the artistry right now in any way that can be combined for success in any senior competition. He should never have been sent to euros or worlds or wtt. Nothing about his skating indicates he can beat plushenko or that medaling at Russian nationals is assured as he placed 5th in 2013 because as in every senior competition he has been in he bombed severely.

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    Is there a chance that Plushenko comes back next year but being denied for going into Olympics? I can't imagine that. Seems to me it's impossible.

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    Yeah plushenko could compete and not wind up going to Sochi. He Had a surgery that is rare and Russian federation could decide it is just too risky to send him and have him withdrawing in the middle of team which means no Russian man in team and no Russian man in singles. Even if plushenko wins russian nationals it would depend on how he won it and if he doesn't win I think it would show he's too physically weak for the Olympics and sending him just because of who he is and not thinking about if he can actually compete would be wrong. It was up to kovtun to get two spots and tarasova convinced everyone that by worlds kovtun was a 100% guarantee for two spots for men. If Russia had two spots it could have sent plushenko without a second thought. But the man must do team and must do singles.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I agree with you that that particular quad isn't a good example of his capability to do quads, particularly when he landed two excellent ones in the FS. It's rare for him to under-rotate quads, let alone fall on them. That being said, it was a real botch up, because if there's ever a time you shouldn't fall on a quad, it's the SP at the Olympics.

    If you look at his quad in the past year or so, it's been landed, but hasn't been as clean or with as much speed/height as he has in the past -- it's kind of miraculous that he's still able to do them with his age/injuries. And coming back from injury now I really don't see how he'll be able to execute two clean quads in Sochi. His axel should be fine, as his technique has been good and even when he's off axis or something's wrong, he can save the jump moreso than he can with the quad. But two quads in an LP in 2014 which has harder choreography/spins/footwork will be a mountain of a task for him compared to two quads in 2002.
    We can't deny he will be 31 year old. I only hope he will able to compete and win on Rus Nat with the two good and strong programs. Honestly, I can't imagine how his body will be able to do it. What I know I will support him all the way, and i hope I will see him at Euros 2014. I haven't see him on competition live, only on show.


    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I don't think it's fair to call Kovtun "very bad". He's a junior skater coming up (almost forced) into the senior ranks. At Euros he thoroughly outjumped Plushenko in the SP -- not even Plushenko in the past year has done a 4T-3T in the SP. Still he's unrefined and Plushenko is more talented, but that's like saying a young Plushenko in 1997/98 was less talented than Russians like Urmanov before he ended up developing more and surpassing/winning. Give him time.
    Kovtun is almost 18. (18.07.1995) Plushy was Junior WCH at 14, he was World bronz and silver medalist, European Champion, and two times European silver medalist when he was younger than Kovtun. He beat Urmanov at 15 y.o.

  14. #614
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Is there a chance that Plushenko comes back next year but being denied for going into Olympics? I can't imagine that. Seems to me it's impossible.
    That isn't impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Yeah plushenko could compete and not wind up going to Sochi. He Had a surgery that is rare and Russian federation could decide it is just too risky to send him and have him withdrawing in the middle of team which means no Russian man in team and no Russian man in singles. Even if plushenko wins russian nationals it would depend on how he won it and if he doesn't win I think it would show he's too physically weak for the Olympics and sending him just because of who he is and not thinking about if he can actually compete would be wrong. It was up to kovtun to get two spots and tarasova convinced everyone that by worlds kovtun was a 100% guarantee for two spots for men. If Russia had two spots it could have sent plushenko without a second thought. But the man must do team and must do singles.
    I don't like the Rus Fed. But I don't want to see a weak Plushenko. He can't do it, because of his name. I hope he will go to Sochi, if he deserves it. He will participate on the gala.

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    and of course, your favorite skater Plushenko and your most disgusted skater Chan.
    That isn't true that my most disgusted skater is Patrick. You didn't read such post, when I was really hostile on him. I don't like him too much, and disagree with his some victories. I'm rather indifferent on him.
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQPXPf14JQw
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXfBNHYODLA instead of words for our discusson...

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