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Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #661
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    The gay,comments go more,toward,Evgeny character and whether he can sell things, how people feel about him. Not whether he can or cannot win Ogm medal.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Quad is a gold medal standard, yes, but the current system of judging has removed emphasis from the jumps and spread it to all other aspects of the program. Evan's program was far more difficult than the programs in 1988 because the actual choreography/spins/footwork was much more demanding. Jump-wise his program wasn't particularly difficult, but in terms of the overall program it was better than Plushenko's (even Irina Rodnina acknowledged that Lysacek was better). While Plushenko focused on his quads, the other guys focused on their programs.
    Tango Amore was not very COP friendly, but that is a program with all required element, not just quads, OK? You sounds like Plushenko's program was only jumps, nothing else, which is not true. Playing with words surely is a fun game for you.

    The point is that when you say "It's not men's skating without a quad", it shows a sense of entitlement to winning and instead of being gracious in defeat (especially when he already had an Olympic gold medal), he decided to complain about it.
    Many skaters tried quads (but failed in different ways and degree), Evan did not attempt a quad, that is the difference. Without quad, men's skating is almost at the same level as lady's skating from jumping point of view, Plushenko merely pointed that out. That is not entitlement, that is dignity as a former Champion for this sports. A bitter joke even. People got furious from this statement because they know what he said is true, no matter how irritating it sounds.

    And I wouldn't attribute the quads we see today as Plushenko and others protesting. The value of quads were slightly increased, but you got skaters doing them much more consistently (like Chan, Fernandez, Amodio, etc.). Chan had actually planned to do quads at the Olympics but a year of injury set him back a season (hence why he was consistently starting to land them the year after Vancouver).
    Of course bringing back quads has nothing to do with Plushenko. Hell it probably Chan's merit. See, when he start to jump quads, the value increased. Hail to the only true king!

    P.s. if it's not men's skating without a quad, then should Plushenko's quadless Euros 2013 SP and Euros 2012 SP not be considered "men's skating", by his own words?
    Plushenko apologized for not jumping quad for his EC2012 SP. And he has good reason not to include quad in his EC2013 SP. He jumped quads in both his SP and LP in RN, that is different from those never attempting quads in their programs.

    But again, words game is so fun for you, right.

  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Jump-wise his program wasn't particularly difficult, but in terms of the overall program it was better than Plushenko's (even Irina Rodnina acknowledged that Lysacek was better). While Plushenko focused on his quads, the other guys focused on their programs.
    Well....Plushenko actually tied Lysacek in PCS in the LP (both received exactly 82.80 points) and received the third-highest PCS of the night (a measly 1.7 points behind Takahashi, who had the highest PCS in the LP) despite this focus on his quad. Charming, isn't it? Seems like focusing on the quad didn't exactly hurt Plushenko all that much compared to the "other guys [who] focused on their programs."

  4. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    (even Irina Rodnina acknowledged that Lysacek was better). While Plushenko focused on his quads, the other guys focused on their programs.

    P.s. if it's not men's skating without a quad, then should Plushenko's quadless Euros 2013 SP and Euros 2012 SP not be considered "men's skating", by his own words?
    You deliberately alter the facts, Rodnina exactly said:

    "Yes, Plushenko struggled, no doubt, and even with that skating could be a champion. Libra swayed, Evgeni not lost, the American did not win, but turn things in our direction, leadership of the national federation failed.Evgeni’s silver medal is a colossal result. The result achieved by him, his coach, choreographer and his spouse. But if the Federation had stepped in, he would have taken home the gold".


    Elena Vaitsehiovskaya article after Euros2013( she isn't a fan of Plush, she is Tarasova supporter)

    http://winter.sport-express.ru/figur...reviews/28073/

    Translation by quiqie from http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthr ... 8edc80be89

    "Evgeni Plushenko: failed triump
    by Elena Vaitsekhovskaya

    ..........
    I thought about those words that were never heard by Trankov-sr yesterday, when I watched the Olympic champion, three-times world champion, seven-times European champion Evgeni Plushenko skating in Zagreb.

    There is a lot of subjectivity in figure skating. Even when a champion is at his peak, it never happens that everyone likes him.There are fans of other skaters, there are people who have completely different tastes and like different skating style, there are, after all, professionals, who always see if a person has realized his full potential, having skated lights out, or underperformed, skating without much strain. Such critique can sometimes be ruthless. What should I say about times when a former star starts to wane, getting old and accumulating injuries.

    Now, when Evgeni didn't show his best in the short program (more precisely, showed his worst, having placed sixth, which is totally uncharacteristical for him), and then gave up on the fight for the European podium, maybe one could still find some fault with him. But is it worth it? For many years, whatever had happened in his carrier, he was completely honest with audience: never showed a lackluster performance, for example. He did the most difficult jumps when his body let him, and when it didn't, he still went all out. Like at the Russian national championships in December, after which all Plushenko's injuries, that he accumulated over the last decade, had aggravated. Perhaps that could be avoided if he excluded at least the quads from his programs. But ... not in his character.

    I listed all his titles above on purpose. Only an outsider to the sport can think that if you win once, after that gold medals start just falling into your outstretched hands. From the 1998 World championship, where Plushenko replaced Ilya Kulik and won bronze, until this season - 15 years of hardest work, injuries, victories, defeats, and endless struggle with himself. We, having criticized him for some of his doings, rarely spared a thought how difficult it must have been for him to overcome himself and find motivation when everything that he could win he had already won many times.

    When an outstanding athlete tries to hold on on previously achieved level, it's hard to watch without emotions. It's the most painful moment in sport: to understand that the desire to win is still all-consuming, but resources to do it become more and more limited. But even when an athlete looks completely powerless, it's not a reason to lose respect for him. After all, it was his decision to go through that as well. Such decision is always a challenge.

    Well, and as for the failed triumph in Zagreb... Maybe it was the performance that helped us to realize how much he had brought to figure skating. How much emotion he evoked not only from his fans, but also from the most notorious haters. All is left for us is to hope for his next inevitable comeback. And wish him good luck in that."


    this...

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Well....Plushenko actually tied Lysacek in PCS in the LP (both received exactly 82.80 points) and received the third-highest PCS of the night (a measly 1.7 points behind Takahashi, who had the highest PCS in the LP) despite this focus on his quad. Charming, isn't it? Seems like focusing on the quad didn't exactly hurt Plushenko all that much compared to the "other guys [who] focused on their programs."

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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Well....Plushenko actually tied Lysacek in PCS in the LP (both received exactly 82.80 points) and received the third-highest PCS of the night (a measly 1.7 points behind Takahashi, who had the highest PCS in the LP) despite this focus on his quad. Charming, isn't it? Seems like focusing on the quad didn't exactly hurt Plushenko all that much compared to the "other guys [who] focused on their programs."
    The other guys made errors, so it made sense that their PCS didn't score as high. He was still outscored in PCS categories, notably 5th in choreography.

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    "But if the Federation had stepped in, he would have taken home the gold".
    It's rather ironic that Plushenko (and others, such as Rodnina) were so dismayed that the Russian federation didn't step in, and then Plushenko attributes Chan's 2013 Worlds win to his federation.

    2010: "I should have had at least a 5 point lead over my competitors [after the SP]. In the end however, the gap amounted to a mere 0.55 to which our Federation did not react at all.”

    2013: "Patrick Chan didn’t win, his figure skating federation did!"

    So when his gold was on the line, the Russian federation should have intervened... but then he audaciously slams the Canadian federation (without any concrete evidence) for politicking for Chan's gold.

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Yes, I knew that isn't the whole qoute, I didn't know where to look, but finally I found it :

    Rodnina: “Evgeni had one big advantage - the quadruple jump - but at the same time, in the performance of our champion, there were enough small errors that weren't noticeable to all. Lysacek, meanwhile, had a winning appearance, a balanced program, all elements carefully woven into his program, logically. And Evgeni, it was especially obvious in the second half, was skating from jump to jump."

    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple_jump_controversy)

  9. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    The other guys made errors, so it made sense that their PCS didn't score as high. He was still outscored in PCS categories, notably 5th in choreography.

    It's rather ironic that Plushenko (and others, such as Rodnina) were so dismayed that the Russian federation didn't step in, and then Plushenko attributes Chan's 2013 Worlds win to his federation.

    2010: "I should have had at least a 5 point lead over my competitors [after the SP]. In the end however, the gap amounted to a mere 0.55 to which our Federation did not react at all.”

    2013: "Patrick Chan didn’t win, his figure skating federation did!"

    So when his gold was on the line, the Russian federation should have intervened... but then he audaciously slams the Canadian federation (without any concrete evidence) for politicking for Chan's gold.
    CSG! You are such an entertaining controversialist!Don't you understand, really?

    Plushenko received too low scores for his SP, or the others received too high scores, thus the difference was too small. He didn't understand, why the RF have not stepped..( like the SC did in 2002)
    Chan received too high scores for the weak skating in LP...probably, because the SC is so strong and influential...

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    CSG! You are such an entertaining controversialist!Don't you understand, really?

    Plushenko received too low scores for his SP, or the others received too high scores, thus the difference was too small. He didn't understand why the Rus Fed didn't step.( like the SC did in 2002)
    Chan received too high scores for the weak skating in LP...probably, because the SC is so strong and influential...
    To me Plushenko leading the SP in 2010 Olympics was similar to Gachinski leading the SP in 2012 Euros. Plushenko is a better skater than Gachinski in 2012, and Lysacek/Takahashi had better programs than Plushenko in 2010. Plushenko in 2012 and Lysacek/Takahashi in 2012 did no quad. Hence, even with a quad, the skater with the inferior program (Gachinski in 2012 Euros, Plushenko in 2010 Olympics) does end up leading, but not leading by a whole lot -- certainly not by 5 points.

    Saying "I should have been leading by at least 5 points" is absolutely ridiculous given Plushenko's choreography being inferior to Lysacek/Takahashi/Lambiel/Chan... that statement is essentially saying his short program PCS should have been at least 44.20 points (his personal best is 42.50 from Euros 2012, for comparison.. and that's with improvement since 2010). Plushenko was under the impression that a clean program with a quad = highest PCS, which is not the case.

    As far as federations stepping in, in SLC, there was actual evidence and admission to cheating -- which is different than speculating, without evidence, that a federation won a title for a skater (Chan), or saying after the fact that your federation should have pushed for you to earn more points when you're already in the lead (Plushenko). The reason Plushenko didn't politic the 2010 SP results is because he was leading -- him and the Russian fed didn't care about the SP gap until he actually lost the gold. And if he was so worried about the minimal gap after the SP, then he should have done everything in his FS (including the 3-jump combo, getting higher levels on his spins/footwork) to ensure a victory.

  11. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    So, then you obviously surveyed all the worst Plu haters and asked them about their sexuality, right?
    There is no point in asking this question if you yourself already answered it: "How exactly do you know if a poster is gay unless they mention it?" An online poster and a Plu hater can say "I am gay" (like you did), and I accept it as the fact. A skater can come out as gay, so that' s it. But to claim, like you, that fans are gays is way too stupid, even for you. How do you know that fans are gays? What I saw on the screen from the Canadian London is a retirement village of 60+yo ladies. According to you they are lesbian babushkas. Fine, I'll take you word for that. But the fs fandom is not your Canadian rock that you keep failing to get out. There is a world beyond that, full of younger people. And not necessary gays. I am one of them.
    Um, but Evan is straight, so I don't see your point or Brian's point.
    Brian was defending quad as a basic feature of Men's segment. Easy to see.
    As for Plushenko insinuating that a skater without a quad is "not a man", that is misogynistic and borderline homophobic...
    Is it a Canadian feature to cheat with everything, including interpretation? He said "not a Man", not "not a man." They obviously didn't teach the meaning of the capital letters in your alma mater. The "man" implies just a gender. While the "Man" means the character. Like the one who has balls to challenge quads.
    calling North American skaters effeminate homosexuals, which is flat out homophobic
    No, it's not homophobic to call gays gays. If you get oversensitive when a straight guy call you gay, that's not a big deal for anyone. I am sure most of gays are fine with being called gays by a not-gay.
    Not having a quad should not equal being gay or being unmanly, and gay should not equal effeminate, so those were offensive, ignorant, stupid remarks for them to make and you're even stupider if you're actually trying to defend that.
    So are ISU, so is your beloved PChan, so are practically all male skaters who put quads, and often more than one, in their competitive progs. They are all stupid.
    Name 15 openly gay soccer or NFL or tennis players
    Do you not have google? Even poorly updated wiki has almost twice more names of soccer players, for example, listed as gays. So?
    by gay we are obviously talking about males, by definition.
    "I, Royal We." you mean by "we"? The definition of "gay" is a homosexual person. That's flat out misogynistic of you to imply that a woman is not a person. "I am gay" is a phrase that can be said by a lesbian.
    sports like soccer/football/tennis have historically had a far greater number of athletes than figure skaters, and yet there are still more openly gay figure skaters those sports.)
    The same as the humankind in general had and has, historically and biologically, more straight people than gays. Therefore it's plain idiotic to put on fs the label "gay sport".
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    But it came out more like "If you don't do a quad, then your skating doesn't deserve to be called men's skating." And there's an implication that "You might as well be skating with the ladies."
    In DOI last summer PChan didn't come in a finale with Dai, Mura and Kozuka to do 3A. He came with Akiko, Kanako and girls to do spins. So yes, if you don't do male elements, you skate with ladies. Some actually do. By their own choice.

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    CSG! You are such an entertaining controversialist!Don't you understand, really?

    Plushenko received too low scores for his SP, or the others received too high scores, thus the difference was too small. He didn't understand, why the RF have not stepped..( like the SC did in 2002)
    Chan received too high scores for the weak skating in LP...probably, because the SC is so strong and influential...
    Very true he was buried awfully in the sp. All of a sudden having as a combo 4/3 meant nothing in skating and 3/3 was really the combo to do and have so you can end quad training and focus on choreo and transitions and not getting fives in pcs like plushenko did. Getting fives in pcs Which you have to go all the way down to the 20th place skater to see again should have been protested. No one else got two 5.00 in the whole top 20. 5 was not the standard score if someone had no transitions In a sp 6 was as shown by weir and van see perren. And plushenko did have transitions in his sp!! So the 5.00 was all political and nonsense and should have been investigated. But the Russian federation didn't want to rock the boat. After seeing that the fix was In and plushenko was buried in he sp by at least 2 judges who felt that he should be 20th in the sp it wouldn't have been wrong for plushenko to withdraw In Protest. Not even getting weir marks in transitions! He went from 3 in his own nationals in tr to nothing below 6!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    To me Plushenko leading the SP in 2010 Olympics was similar to Gachinski leading the SP in 2012 Euros. Plushenko is a better skater than Gachinski in 2012, and Lysacek/Takahashi had better programs than Plushenko in 2010. Plushenko in 2012 and Lysacek/Takahashi in 2012 did no quad. Hence, even with a quad, the skater with the inferior program (Gachinski in 2012 Euros, Plushenko in 2010 Olympics) does end up leading, but not leading by a whole lot -- certainly not by 5 points.

    Saying "I should have been leading by at least 5 points" is absolutely ridiculous given Plushenko's choreography being inferior to Lysacek/Takahashi/Lambiel/Chan... that statement is essentially saying his short program PCS should have been at least 44.20 points (his personal best is 42.50 from Euros 2012, for comparison.. and that's with improvement since 2010). Plushenko was under the impression that a clean program with a quad = highest PCS, which is not the case.

    As far as federations stepping in, in SLC, there was actual evidence and admission to cheating -- which is different than speculating, without evidence, that a federation won a title for a skater (Chan), or saying after the fact that your federation should have pushed for you to earn more points when you're already in the lead (Plushenko). The reason Plushenko didn't politic the 2010 SP results is because he was leading -- him and the Russian fed didn't care about the SP gap until he actually lost the gold. And if he was so worried about the minimal gap after the SP, then he should have done everything in his FS (including the 3-jump combo, getting higher levels on his spins/footwork) to ensure a victory.
    He got all level 4's on his spins and three on his steps. Like so did takahashi. There was not a lot of room for improvement on levels available to plushenko to improve to. I agree to do the 3 jump combo but also eliminate the quad triple move to a 3/5 layout. The quad elimination would have been best for more points on everything he did.

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I have never seen this video!!! Thank you !!!!! So funny!
    Another great cross-dressing exhibition by a guy well known to be all too hetero, Lloyd Eisler (and Isabelle Brasseur)

    Patricia the Stripper
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6LPWkg70g

  15. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Another great cross-dressing exhibition by a guy well known to be all too hetero, Lloyd Eisler (and Isabelle Brasseur)

    Patricia the Stripper
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6LPWkg70g
    Thank you for the link! I remember them at the competitions, but i have never seen this program. Really funny!!!! Lloyd/Patricia is very pretty ....

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