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Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #676
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Let's Talk
    What I saw on the screen from the Canadian London is a retirement village of 60+yo ladies. According to you they are lesbian babushkas.
    I think they are actually 60-year-old men in drag.

    The "man" implies just a gender. While the "Man" means the character. Like the one who has balls to challenge quads.
    Here "balls" means courage, right? As in, Mao Asada has the balls to attempt a triple Axel?

    I agree with this interpretation of the Manliness of quads. There is nothing about pirouetting in the air per se that is particularly "manly" in the small m sense. A "manly" sport would be cutting off the heads of ogres with a battle axe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodnina
    The Russian Federation should have stepped in.
    I have never understood quite what this "stepping in" might consist of. is the suggestion that Pisseev should have called up Cinquanta and told him to rig the computer to give Plushenko 5 more points? That's the trouble with wuz-robbing. After the scores are in, it's too late.

  2. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    There is no point in asking this question if you yourself already answered it: "How exactly do you know if a poster is gay unless they mention it?" An online poster and a Plu hater can say "I am gay" (like you did), and I accept it as the fact. A skater can come out as gay, so that' s it. But to claim, like you, that fans are gays is way too stupid, even for you.
    I'm one example. Did you survey all those Plu haters and did they all at some point say they were gay? And how many, 2 or 3? It's pretty delusional of you to think that several fans of figure skating aren't gay -- certainly in North America and Europe. There are only a handful of straight men that I know who are fans of figure skating (other than maybe during the Olympics when they watch all sports), but a ton of gay friends of mine who watch it and acknowledge that it's a sport that appeals to gay men more than several other sports, with its glitz and pageantry and general fabulousness. Call a spade a spade here.

    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    TIs it a Canadian feature to cheat with everything, including interpretation? He said "not a Man", not "not a man." They obviously didn't teach the meaning of the capital letters in your alma mater. The "man" implies just a gender. While the "Man" means the character. Like the one who has balls to challenge quads.
    So you agree then, that is misogyny. It's questioning a skater's manliness (which is an attack on their character) if they don't do a quad and implying inferiority in their unmanliness for not doing it. Obviously Plushenko wasn't saying Evan physically is not a male human. I'm not even going to get into the "capital letters means the character" thing... it's the most ridiculous/incorrect/inconsequential thing I've ever heard, and you've said your fair share. Don't school me on English, when it's out of politeness and apathy that I don't rip yours apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    No, it's not homophobic to call gays gays. If you get oversensitive when a straight guy call you gay, that's not a big deal for anyone. I am sure most of gays are fine with being called gays by a not-gay.
    There's a difference between calling somebody what they are, and calling somebody what they are with a derogatory stereotype attached to it? I don't get oversensitive when a straight guy calls me "gay" because that's what I am. But I certainly wouldn't enjoy him calling me a "sissy" or a "pansy" or "an effeminate homosexual".

    And when skaters like Joubert/Stojko make comments about lacking manliness, it's about as bad as when gay guys say "I want someone straight-acting" or "I want to date a man, not a woman", that reeks of insecurity, prejudice and downright douchiness. Plushenko saying that a program without a quad is "no longer men's skating" is like a hockey player saying "If you want to take out checking, it might as well be women's hockey"... it's insulting, and there are more tactful ways to express yourself. Especially when he's been outskated by men who have performed harder and more quads than he has, you'd think he wouldn't criticize other guys for not having his level of difficulty. Not to mention, even with his quads, he's made errors on simple jumps like 3S or 2A. Kinda like when Joubert in 2010 Worlds criticized guys who didn't do quads, and then fell on a simple 2A at Worlds. What's that about karma?

  3. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    The definition of "gay" is a homosexual person. That's flat out misogynistic of you to imply that a woman is not a person. "I am gay" is a phrase that can be said by a lesbian.
    Bit of education for ya: a lesbian (the noun) is the proper term for a woman who is gay (the adjective). When people correctly refer to "gay" or "gays" as a noun or plural noun, they are referring to only men -- many lesbians hate it when they are lumped into the plural noun "gays". "Same-sex marriage" is what "gay marriage" should be referred to, to encompass both homosexual men and women. And obviously for the purpose of skating we are referring to men -- people who call it a "gay sport" aren't referring to the female contingent! How many women were on that list of skaters you provided? Not a single one. But in your Wikipedia list (I assume you're referring to this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...r_sportspeople -- notice how it distinguishes 'gay' and 'lesbian' as two separate entities), several of the athletes you've included to make your point are women (and comparing apples to oranges essentially). Let's actually count the number of gay guys from that wikipedia list:

    Gay Figure skaters (12): Jeffrey Buttle, Toller Cranston, John Curry, Rudy Galindo, Matthew Hall, Robert McCall, Ondrej Nepala, Brian Orser, Brian Pockar, Ronnie Robertson, Johnny Weir, David Wilson... and not included (4): Emanuel Sandhu, Ryan O'Meara, Luc Bradet, Matthew Savoie --- also bear in mind that several of them were comfortable enough to come out while they were still active athletes (I can't imagine why that is! )

    Gay Football players (11 - several of these were never NFL players*, and none of them were out during their professional careers): Wade Davis, Ed Gallagher*, Alan Gendreau*, Kwame Harris, David Kopay, Ray Mcdonald, Lindsy Mclean, Roy Simmons, Brian Sims*, Jerry Smith, Esera Tuaolo

    Gay Tennis players (2): Bill Tilden, Ted Tinling ... there's not a single out gay professional tennis player on the ATP men's tour currently

    Gay Soccer players (8): Thomas Berling, John Blankenstein, Justin Fashanu, Anton Hysen, Aslie Pitter, Olivier Rouyer, Robbie Rogers, David Testo

    So, you're wrong when you say that there are more out athletes in sports outside of figure skating when it's apparent that figure skating has had the most gay athletes (several of whom were out while active, at that). And the reason is because figure skating is totally gay-friendly compared to other sports -- why are there no out NFL players, or NHL players, or MLB players? Why do you think people made such a big deal of Jason Collins coming out, but nobody blinked an eye when Johnny Weir or Brian Orser or Jeffrey Buttle came out. That you would even suggest that there are lots of openly gay American Football players, more so than openly gay figure skaters, is the most convoluted, untrue statement ever. Hopefully that will change though. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/footbal...211116127.html

  4. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Especially when he's been outskated by men who have performed harder and more quads than he has, you'd think he wouldn't criticize other guys for not having his level of difficulty. Not to mention, even with his quads, he's made errors on simple jumps like 3S or 2A. Kinda like when Joubert in 2010 Worlds criticized guys who didn't do quads, and then fell on a simple 2A at Worlds. What's that about karma?
    Plush said this in 2010. Who have performed harder and more quads than he has at Vancouver?

    This is a sophisticated post again.

  5. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    To me Plushenko leading the SP in 2010 Olympics was similar to Gachinski leading the SP in 2012 Euros. Plushenko is a better skater than Gachinski in 2012, and Lysacek/Takahashi had better programs than Plushenko in 2010.


    What makes you think so? I always thought Plushenko had much better programs then Lysacek. That is very subjective opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Plush said this in 2010. Who have performed harder and more quads than he has at Vancouver?

    This is a sophisticated post again.
    If we're talking Vancouver, Lambiel attempted more quads than Plushenko. If we're talking about after 2010...

    At Euros 2012, in the SP Plushenko was the only man in the top 6 not to attempt a quad. In the LP Plushenko only attempted 1 quad in his LP (his only quad of the competition). Gachinski executed 2 quads in the LP (3 overall). Fernandez also did 2 quads in the LP - one of them being a 4S, which is a harder quad than 4T. Joubert attempted 2 quads in his LP. None of these men (particularly Gachinski) complained that Plushenko was only attempting 1 quad or made any statement like "If you're not attempting 2 quads, then you really don't deserve to win."

    At Russian Nationals, Menshov executed 2 quads in his FS to Plushenko's 1 quad... (also, Plushenko had only 1 quad planned, whereas Kovtun, Menshov, Gachinski, and Voronov, had all planned 2 quads).

    Euros 2013, even if he had done a 4T in his SP, Fernandez, Amodio and Brezina all attempted and executed a harder quad - 4S - than he would have done. In the FS, Fernandez would have landed at least 1 more quad than Plushenko (likely 2, since Plushenko hadn't planned on doing 2 quads in his FS). And it would have been two 4S and one 4T to Plushenko's one (if not two) 4T.

    I was talking about Salt Lake City where Goebel performed 3 quads, as well as the 2003 Worlds... to Plushenko's two quads. Also two of those quads were quad salchows. Yes he said it in 2010, but it's convenient that he never said in 2002 that somebody who performs 3 quads to his 2 quads, and harder quads at that, should place ahead of him... but when he loses to somebody with less difficulty in Vancouver all of a sudden he protests.

    The point being, Plushenko complaining about other men not having his level of difficulty were it applied now would actually turn the tables on him, should the other guys attempt and execute more/harder quads. This isn't like 2002 where the judges can use Goebel's inferior artistry as a scapegoat.

  7. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post


    What makes you think so? I always thought Plushenko had much better programs then Lysacek. That is very subjective opinion.
    Um, but you always thinking Plushenko had much better programs than Lysacek isn't a subjective opinion? If you look at the marks, the judges gave Lysacek higher marks in transitions and choreography, which means Lysacek's programs were better. This seems subjective but difficult choreography and transitions are tangible things (like skating skills). Interpretation and performance are the subjective categories. Plushenko's choreography was the 5th best in both the SP and the LP (as it should have been) because you could physically see that his program was easier. Even with errors, other skaters placed above him in this category because their programs were inherently better (it's also the reason why you'll see Takahashi/Chan/others score high choreography marks even if they make errors, because the actual program itself is being credited and is independent of errors -- unless it was a serious disruption and resulted in a chunk of choreography being left out).

    Of course, a skater's fans will always think their skater has the best programs. I'm sure many of Plushenko's fans thought his program content was better than Takahashi or Lambiel, too, and not just Lysacek. That's totally fine to love your skater and hope the best of them. But calling out the judges because "OMG, why so low? He's like the best!" without actually dissecting whether the program itself is worthy of higher marks is just a fan getting ahead of themselves with a clean performance and ignoring the actual difficulty between the elements.

  8. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think they are actually 60-year-old men in drag.
    This totally explains the widespread appeal of Dan Hollander's "Doubtfire" program... a straight man dressed as an old woman in a gay-friendly sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I have never understood quite what this "stepping in" might consist of. is the suggestion that Pisseev should have called up Cinquanta and told him to rig the computer to give Plushenko 5 more points? That's the trouble with wuz-robbing. After the scores are in, it's too late.
    I always wondered that too. This isn't like gymnastics where the judges neglect to add a base value, or like Canadian Nationals where Chartrand's 3Z-3S was mistakenly counted as a series which initially denied her the bronze. Exactly what do you tell the judges: "Like his program more!" "Look back at all the programs and score him higher!" "Go back and change the +1's to +2s!" I mean, how ridiculous is it to complain that your artistic marks didn't put you enough in the lead?!

  9. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Um, but you always thinking Plushenko had much better programs than Lysacek isn't a subjective opinion? If you look at the marks, the judges gave Lysacek higher marks in transitions and choreography, which means Lysacek's programs were better. This seems subjective but difficult choreography and transitions are tangible things (like skating skills). Interpretation and performance are the subjective categories. Plushenko's choreography was the 5th best in both the SP and the LP (as it should have been) because you could physically see that his program was easier. Even with errors, other skaters placed above him in this category because their programs were inherently better (it's also the reason why you'll see Takahashi/Chan/others score high choreography marks even if they make errors, because the actual program itself is being credited and is independent of errors -- unless it was a serious disruption and resulted in a chunk of choreography being left out).

    Of course, a skater's fans will always think their skater has the best programs. I'm sure many of Plushenko's fans thought his program content was better than Takahashi or Lambiel, too, and not just Lysacek. That's totally fine to love your skater and hope the best of them. But calling out the judges because "OMG, why so low? He's like the best!" without actually dissecting whether the program itself is worthy of higher marks is just a fan getting ahead of themselves with a clean performance and ignoring the actual difficulty between the elements.


    You must be joking and hope you are not serious asking me to look at those marks, because I don’t know those people and how and why they put those marks.
    If Tarasova said Plushenko was robbed in SP a 5-6 points, that is the end of the story for me.

    Plus I have my own opinion at what I saw on ice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    He got all level 4's on his spins and three on his steps. Like so did takahashi. There was not a lot of room for improvement on levels available to plushenko to improve to. I agree to do the 3 jump combo but also eliminate the quad triple move to a 3/5 layout. The quad elimination would have been best for more points on everything he did.

    Not in his FS (he got a level 3 on his FSSp). He was also the only one in the top 5 to not do any level 4 footwork, which likely affected his PCS in both programs, too. As for: "All of a sudden having as a combo 4/3 meant nothing in skating and 3/3 was really the combo to do" -- it did mean something.. it meant a higher base value on his combo of about 3.8 points, and proportionally higher GOE. Unfortunately, he gave it up on spins and footwork.

  11. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post


    You must be joking and hope you are not serious asking me to look at those marks, because I don’t know those people and how and why they put those marks.
    If Tarasova said Plushenko was robbed in SP a 5-6 points, that is the end of the story for me.

    Plus I have my own opinion at what I saw on ice.
    Right, because Tarasova would have no biased opinion whatsoever on the matter. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But, "those people" are the ones doling out the marks.

    If you want to know why they put those marks, maybe look at the actual intricacies (or lackthereof) in Plushenko's program compared to the other skaters, instead of your "end of story" being a fellow Russian's opinion of Evgeni's skate. If you're unwilling to look at the marks and compare it to the programs, and just go by what you saw, then you'll keep telling yourself Tarasova was right.

    And why 5-6 marks? Why not 8-10 marks higher? They never explained why the marks should be higher and where the higher marks should come from. It certainly wouldn't be PCS... that SP was not deserving of 44 points PCS and back in 2010 judges were also being more conservative with their PCS scores -- nobody scored 9's in the FS, not even Lambiel who had the best PCS and the best programs.

  12. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    If we're talking Vancouver, Lambiel attempted more quads than Plushenko. If we're talking about after 2010...

    At Euros 2012, in the SP Plushenko was the only man in the top 6 not to attempt a quad. In the LP Plushenko only attempted 1 quad in his LP (his only quad of the competition). Gachinski executed 2 quads in the LP (3 overall). Fernandez also did 2 quads in the LP - one of them being a 4S, which is a harder quad than 4T. Joubert attempted 2 quads in his LP. None of these men (particularly Gachinski) complained that Plushenko was only attempting 1 quad or made any statement like "If you're not attempting 2 quads, then you really don't deserve to win."

    At Russian Nationals, Menshov executed 2 quads in his FS to Plushenko's 1 quad... (also, Plushenko had only 1 quad planned, whereas Kovtun, Menshov, Gachinski, and Voronov, had all planned 2 quads).

    Euros 2013, even if he had done a 4T in his SP, Fernandez, Amodio and Brezina all attempted and executed a harder quad - 4S - than he would have done. In the FS, Fernandez would have landed at least 1 more quad than Plushenko (likely 2, since Plushenko hadn't planned on doing 2 quads in his FS). And it would have been two 4S and one 4T to Plushenko's one (if not two) 4T.

    I was talking about Salt Lake City where Goebel performed 3 quads, as well as the 2003 Worlds... to Plushenko's two quads. Also two of those quads were quad salchows. Yes he said it in 2010, but it's convenient that he never said in 2002 that somebody who performs 3 quads to his 2 quads, and harder quads at that, should place ahead of him... but when he loses to somebody with less difficulty in Vancouver all of a sudden he protests.

    The point being, Plushenko complaining about other men not having his level of difficulty were it applied now would actually turn the tables on him, should the other guys attempt and execute more/harder quads. This isn't like 2002 where the judges can use Goebel's inferior artistry as a scapegoat.
    At this point you just show a total and fundamental and totally north American misunderstanding of what plushenko and joubert and others were saying about quads. It is not about quads only and most quads wins. Why is it so impossible for you to comprehend that quads should be a part of a program and then that's it. Lysacek buttle chan north American media were all saying in unison that you can be a total and complete skater and there's no more room for improvement or advancement if you do all triples well!! YOu are not complete with no room for improvement if you don't do quads. You can always add quads and that means you can be complete. Like chan in 2011 or takahashi in 2012 or if he landed his quad takahashi in 2010 or plushenko in 2010 were complete skaters and I know calling plushenko complete in Vancouver goes against all north American views of plushenko as he is seen as only jumping.

  13. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    This isn't like gymnastics where the judges neglect to add a base value, or like Canadian Nationals where Chartrand's 3Z-3S was mistakenly counted as a series which initially denied her the bronze.
    CSG, I noticed you have used this turn of phrase several times. I would like to point out, it is called a SEQUENCE (which is why it is designated as +SEQ on a score sheet) and that by not calling it its proper name, you are kind of ruining your credibility in your arguments.

    Back to your Plushenko argument, folks...

  14. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    At this point you just show a total and fundamental and totally north American misunderstanding of what plushenko and joubert and others were saying about quads. It is not about quads only and most quads wins. Why is it so impossible for you to comprehend that quads should be a part of a program and then that's it. Lysacek buttle chan north American media were all saying in unison that you can be a total and complete skater and there's no more room for improvement or advancement if you do all triples well!! YOu are not complete with no room for improvement if you don't do quads. You can always add quads and that means you can be complete. Like chan in 2011 or takahashi in 2012 or if he landed his quad takahashi in 2010 or plushenko in 2010 were complete skaters and I know calling plushenko complete in Vancouver goes against all north American views of plushenko as he is seen as only jumping.
    I think the point of skating is to do what you can execute well. There's no point attempting a quad if you're bound to fall on it. Lysacek and Buttle didn't deem a quad to be worth the risk and thus refrained from doing it. On a stage like the Olympics, it's most important to have a clean skate -- Takahashi wasn't landing quads very well, but decided to go for it in the FS and paid a huge price for attempting a jump that he wasn't even close to landing cleanly. Had he been smart and did a 3L instead of a quad (a 3L would have been worth 5 points + GOE, versus zero points for the fall on the under-rotated quad). Lysacek has proven that he's been capable of landing quads but if that week he felt his quad wasn't steady or consistent enough then it makes sense for him not to include it. Had he attempted a quad and made a significant error, the gold would have been lost.

    Takahashi and Lambiel in 2010 were the only truly "complete skaters", who attempted the highest technical content and also had wonderful programs to back it up (and both could have won if Lambiel was more solid and if Takahashi didn't go for the quad). Lysacek/Chan had a great program but no quad. Plushenko had a quad but not as great a program (or at least great enough to win).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    CSG, I noticed you have used this turn of phrase several times. I would like to point out, it is called a SEQUENCE (which is why it is designated as +SEQ on a score sheet) and that by not calling it its proper name, you are kind of ruining your credibility in your arguments.

    Back to your Plushenko argument, folks...
    A jump series is synonymous with a jump sequence.

    http://www.skatejournal.com/jump.html
    http://www.ekifsc.pwp.blueyonder.co....d_concepts.pdf
    http://iceskatingresources.org/PrinciplesOfJumping.pdf
    Culture on Ice: Figure Skating & Meaning; pg. 289

    Perhaps you've never referred to it as a jump series, but many people use "jump series" to distinguish it from "jump combination" (and as you said, "jump sequence" is also accepted and why it's marked as SEQ on the sheet).

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