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Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #691
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    CSG is like doctor who running up and down across time to find the evidence support his point. Anyway, apparently whatever Plushenko does/did, it will only be right when CSG can use it to show how ordinary, arrogant skater he is. Otherwise, it is totally non-existing. Everybody can beat Plushenko in certain area, so what the fuss about him? Let us forget about Plushenko and enjoy the great Chan's era, since his artistry is unmatched from PCS point of view. Let us worship Aaron who will perform 5 quads on Olympics. So now Plushenko has nothing to compete with young guys, why bother?

    But wait, maybe we need to bare his so average ability on ice for one more year (if he is healthy enough) since he is the best single men skater in Russia, so it would only make sense that he would bore us on the Olympics. What a tragic for figure skating fans

  2. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    CSG is like doctor who running up and down across time to find the evidence support his point. Anyway, apparently whatever Plushenko does/did, it will only be right when CSG can use it to show how ordinary, arrogant skater he is. Otherwise, it is totally non-existing. Everybody can beat Plushenko in certain area, so what the fuss about him? Let us forget about Plushenko and enjoy the great Chan's era, since his artistry is unmatched from PCS point of view. Let us worship Aaron who will perform 5 quads on Olympics. So now Plushenko has nothing to compete with young guys, why bother?

    But wait, maybe we need to bare his so average ability on ice for one more year (if he is healthy enough) since he is the best single men skater in Russia, so it would only make sense that he would bore us on the Olympics. What a tragic for figure skating fans
    On the contrary, I think Plushenko is an extraordinary skater in terms of jumping ability and many times I've said he's the most consistent skater of all time -- I have never called him average (only his program choreography/intricacy pre-2012). I give him credit for going for high difficulty and having such a great presence on the ice. My criticism of him is his moments of outspokenness, which can come across as arrogance (and I acknowledge that Chan also has the same, too). And I also criticize him for sometimes going over-the-top in his movements/expression (which is a matter of personal taste) and for not developing better choreography - which made his programs appear to be a jump checklist - until 2012, even though he was always capable of it (if not more capable of it before 2012 and injuries plaguing his ability). I've also said that he is the Russian man I would most like to see in Sochi, and I also agree that he is currently the best single men's skater in Russia (even though I prefer Kovtun's skating style and choreography more). His injury makes me question his Sochi status - it's pretty serious if an injury forces you to pull out - and he hasn't really done that before, and with a surgery I'm tentative about his ability to win the Olympics, let alone be on the podium -- especially given the talents and difficulty of the rest of the field. That's me taking the situation and being logical -- if you have a serious injury that requires surgery, your chances of coming back let alone winning are compromised. I take nothing away from his impressive accomplishments, and I totally respect his ability, but I'm also not going to fawn over him, and I'm going to criticize him when I think he deserves criticism.

  3. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    A jump series is synonymous with a jump sequence.
    Perhaps you've never referred to it as a jump series, but many people use "jump series" to distinguish it from "jump combination" (and as you said, "jump sequence" is also accepted and why it's marked as SEQ on the sheet).
    Not just me, MANY, MANY, MANY people have never referred to it as a "series" always as a sequence (and it's been defined by the ISU as sequence and has always been defined as "sequence" in the USFS rulebook) and I've been around this sport a long time as a participant. Must be something colloquial in Canada. Carry on....

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    On the contrary, I think Plushenko is an extraordinary skater in terms of jumping ability and many times I've said he's the most consistent skater of all time -- I have never called him average (only his program choreography/intricacy pre-2012). I give him credit for going for high difficulty and having such a great presence on the ice. My criticism of him is his moments of outspokenness, which can come across as arrogance (and I acknowledge that Chan also has the same, too). And I also criticize him for sometimes going over-the-top in his movements/expression (which is a matter of personal taste) and for not developing better choreography - which made his programs appear to be a jump checklist - until 2012, even though he was always capable of it (if not more capable of it before 2012 and injuries plaguing his ability). I've also said that he is the Russian man I would most like to see in Sochi, and I also agree that he is currently the best single men's skater in Russia (even though I prefer Kovtun's skating style and choreography more). His injury makes me question his Sochi status - it's pretty serious if an injury forces you to pull out - and he hasn't really done that before, and with a surgery I'm tentative about his ability to win the Olympics, let alone be on the podium -- especially given the talents and difficulty of the rest of the field. That's me taking the situation and being logical -- if you have a serious injury that requires surgery, your chances of coming back let alone winning are compromised. I take nothing away from his impressive accomplishments, and I totally respect his ability, but I'm also not going to fawn over him, and I'm going to criticize him when I think he deserves criticism.
    He's pulled out before. He did if famously in 2005 at Moscow worlds! He's older now so may not come back but he famously withdrew from what was arguably the biggest competition of his whole life up to that point in 2005.

    What kovtun choreography?!? Lol that's a joke. Plushenko in 6.0 was far superior choreography to kovtun in coP but also plushenko did much superior choreography under 6.0 as his best programs ever were 6.0 programs.

  5. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    On the contrary, I think Plushenko is an extraordinary skater in terms of jumping ability and many times I've said he's the most consistent skater of all time -- I have never called him average (only his program choreography/intricacy pre-2012). I give him credit for going for high difficulty and having such a great presence on the ice. My criticism of him is his moments of outspokenness, which can come across as arrogance (and I acknowledge that Chan also has the same, too). And I also criticize him for sometimes going over-the-top in his movements/expression (which is a matter of personal taste) and for not developing better choreography - which made his programs appear to be a jump checklist - until 2012, even though he was always capable of it (if not more capable of it before 2012 and injuries plaguing his ability). I've also said that he is the Russian man I would most like to see in Sochi, and I also agree that he is currently the best single men's skater in Russia (even though I prefer Kovtun's skating style and choreography more). His injury makes me question his Sochi status - it's pretty serious if an injury forces you to pull out - and he hasn't really done that before, and with a surgery I'm tentative about his ability to win the Olympics, let alone be on the podium -- especially given the talents and difficulty of the rest of the field. That's me taking the situation and being logical -- if you have a serious injury that requires surgery, your chances of coming back let alone winning are compromised. I take nothing away from his impressive accomplishments, and I totally respect his ability, but I'm also not going to fawn over him, and I'm going to criticize him when I think he deserves criticism.
    You believe me, he can sleep because of your criticism or any criticism from North-America. He entered his name in the figure skating history, like the biggest champion, one of the greatest and one of the most popular skater ever. He brought many new fans to figure skating, and some of them watched the FS solely because of him. In Eu his name is better known than Yuna's. His name is the best ticket seller. Plu earned millions of dollars, he became a rich man, because of his talent.

    I'm really glad, you don't like his programs, because your taste is toooooo COP-friendly.

    Do you think, he is sad because you don't like him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsEpvr0_eV4 He is a rock star, in front of the hotel.

  6. #696
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    He's pulled out before. He did if famously in 2005 at Moscow worlds! He's older now so may not come back but he famously withdrew from what was arguably the biggest competition of his whole life up to that point in 2005.
    Actually the biggest competition of his whole life up to that point was the 2002 Olympics -- which he lost to Yagudin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    You believe me, he can sleep because of your criticism or any criticism from North-America. He entered his name in the figure skating history, like the biggest champion, one of the greatest and one of the most popular skater ever. He brought many new fans to figure skating, and some of them watched the FS solely because of him. In Eu his name is better known than Yuna's. His name is the best ticket seller. Plu earned millions of dollars, he became a rich man, because of his talent.

    I'm really glad, you don't like his programs, because your taste is toooooo COP-friendly.

    Do you think, he is sad because you don't like him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsEpvr0_eV4 He is a rock star, in front of the hotel.
    No, I don't care if he thinks I don't like him. And he shouldn't care either. Why should one like one's critics?

    But just because others like him doesn't mean I have to nor does it mean I do. Though, in fact, I like him. I just don't adore him and think he can do no wrong (which is fine if others do).

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    No, I don't care if he thinks I don't like him. And he shouldn't care either. Why should one like one's critics?

    But just because others like him doesn't mean I have to nor does it mean I do. Though, in fact, I like him. I just don't adore him and think he can do no wrong (which is fine if others do).
    That is not fine by your standard since you kept "correcting" other's opinion.

    But you are right, why Plushenko should care about your critics? He certainly cares about critics especially for those questioning his patriotism, integrity as a athlete. That is why he might get a little bit angry/upset with all your comments about his withdrawing from EU is not due to injury but because of his bad performance (in this aspect, you are no better than that Z-something commentator). He replied some twits containing similar meaning after his surgery.

    He certainly cares about critics about his skating when he thinks they have a point. He said critics kept him moving forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Actually the biggest competition of his whole life up to that point was the 2002 Olympics -- which he lost to Yagudin.
    No this is not true and plushenko himself said it was the Moscow worlds. That was not the point anyway!! The point was he had withdrawn from a competition and a big one! Bringing up his losing to yagudin is not even relevant in any way at all!! But you had to bring in Yaguidn!! Of course as this is a plushenko thread!

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    That is not fine by your standard since you kept "correcting" other's opinion.

    But you are right, why Plushenko should care about your critics? He certainly cares about critics especially for those questioning his patriotism, integrity as a athlete. That is why he might get a little bit angry/upset with all your comments about his withdrawing from EU is not due to injury but because of his bad performance (in this aspect, you are no better than that Z-something commentator). He replied some twits containing similar meaning after his surgery.

    He certainly cares about critics about his skating when he thinks they have a point. He said critics kept him moving forward.
    When it comes to things like interpretation and performance, which are subjective, I don't correct others since they are welcome to think what they think. But when it comes to tangible things like better spins or better transitions, I will call him inferior to other skaters, and I will call out those who suggest he has "better ones" - particularly those whose rationale is that he's the best so of course he has the best everything.

    Before 2012, he might have cared about his critics about his skating but he certainly didn't do anything to change it... he continued to have programs with 2-footed skating and minimal choreography and his approach was "do the jumps. do the quad, and you'll probably win". I think any fan of his would certainly say his program in 2012 Euros was vastly superior to his program in 2010 or 2006 Olympics, so you have to ask yourself why he didn't improve/present that in the first place. It got to a point that his choreo in 2006/2010 was worse than that of 2002 because all he had to do was land the jumps and there was no Yagudin to challenge him. Now, I think he's embracing the fact that good choreography and transitions and difficult steps inbetween elements is actually significant and it's not all about landing the big tricks.

    And I've said that I agree that he withdrew from Euros 2013 due to injury, but considering what was at stake (the gold/his reputation/his superiority to Fernandez-Amodio-Brezina and his own countrymen), I wouldn't have been shocked if we later found out that he wasn't injured at the time and his camp had cited an injury as an excuse.

    Like I said, he was 6th, so there was no point further injuring himself, or shooting for gold when that was out of reach, and he would have needed one of his better skates just to make the podium.

  12. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    When it comes to things like interpretation and performance, which are subjective, I don't correct others since they are welcome to think what they think. But when it comes to tangible things like better spins or better transitions, I will call him inferior to other skaters, and I will call out those who suggest he has "better ones" - particularly those whose rationale is that he's the best so of course he has the best everything.

    Before 2012, he might have cared about his critics about his skating but he certainly didn't do anything to change it... he continued to have programs with 2-footed skating and minimal choreography and his approach was "do the jumps. do the quad, and you'll probably win". I think any fan of his would certainly say his program in 2012 Euros was vastly superior to his program in 2010 or 2006 Olympics, so you have to ask yourself why he didn't improve/present that in the first place. It got to a point that his choreo in 2006/2010 was worse than that of 2002 because all he had to do was land the jumps and there was no Yagudin to challenge him. Now, I think he's embracing the fact that good choreography and transitions and difficult steps inbetween elements is actually significant and it's not all about landing the big tricks.

    And I've said that I agree that he withdrew from Euros 2013 due to injury, but considering what was at stake (the gold/his reputation/his superiority to Fernandez-Amodio-Brezina and his own countrymen), I wouldn't have been shocked if we later found out that he wasn't injured at the time and his camp had cited an injury as an excuse.

    Like I said, he was 6th, so there was no point further injuring himself, or shooting for gold when that was out of reach, and he would have needed one of his better skates just to make the podium.
    This is total nonsense. He was always injured. The issue was how bad the injury was affecting his abilities! The extent of the injury! You were never ever going to find out he wasn't injured. He was it was a matter of extent and how it affected him. So this level of skepticism is absurd and ridiculous and why Let's Talk is justified in engaging with you the way they do so much of the time!!

    I don't think his 2012 euros performance was better than his 2010 Olympics performance looking back at the two. I think looking at them both now 2010 was better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    And I've said that I agree that he withdrew from Euros 2013 due to injury, but considering what was at stake (the gold/his reputation/his superiority to Fernandez-Amodio-Brezina and his own countrymen), I wouldn't have been shocked if we later found out that he wasn't injured at the time and his camp had cited an injury as an excuse.

    Like I said, he was 6th, so there was no point further injuring himself, or shooting for gold when that was out of reach, and he would have needed one of his better skates just to make the podium.
    Would you have been more satisfied if he actually did compete and risked severe injury? Would you have praised him for his sportsmanship then?
    In the past few seasons, he has chosen his competitions very carefully (and sparingly) because of his various injuries and taking into account that he's aiming for the Olympics. He would not have competed at Europeans this year to begin with if he felt that he was unprepared/not healthy enough - he can't afford the risks, health-wise and reputation-wise, leading into Sochi.

    Whether you like his skating or not, as an athlete and as a person he deserves more respect than you're giving him with the assumptions you make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuki View Post
    Would you have been more satisfied if he actually did compete and risked severe injury? Would you have praised him for his sportsmanship then?
    In the past few seasons, he has chosen his competitions very carefully (and sparingly) because of his various injuries and taking into account that he's aiming for the Olympics. He would not have competed at Europeans this year to begin with if he felt that he was unprepared/not healthy enough - he can't afford the risks, health-wise and reputation-wise, leading into Sochi.

    Whether you like his skating or not, as an athlete and as a person he deserves more respect than you're giving him with the assumptions you make.
    He's not exactly respecting Chan as an athlete and as a person (or Skate Canada) when saying the Canadian federation won him his 2013 World title.

    It would have actually been better if Plushenko hadn't competed at all in Euros and taken care of his health, instead of presenting a watered down SP while injured. You say he wouldn't have competed if he were unprepared/not healthy... well, clearly he was unprepared if he didn't come with a quad (against Fernandez/Amodio/Brezina/Joubert), and clearly he was not healthy enough if his SP fall was actually attributed to injury. If he didn't compete in the FS due to injury from the SP fall, I can accept that... but what I am skeptical of is people defending his poor SP performance primarily due to injury affecting his ability. Skaters have to perform while injured all the time -- but you would have to imagine that a skater only skates with an injury if they believe they can perform well, particularly a perfectionist like Plushenko. And with perfect 3A and 3Z-3T in practices leading up to the SP, I wouldn't attribute his poor performance solely due to injury - as inconceivable as it might be, maybe he actually legitimately made errors. All I'm saying is that people shouldn't rule that out and immediately say it was because of injury. Stating that you have a performance-affecting injury but are going to compete anyways is setting people up to applaud you if you skate well "he skated well in spite of injury" or defend you if you skate poorly "he skated poorly due to injury".

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    No, I don't care if he thinks I don't like him. And he shouldn't care either. Why should one like one's critics?

    But just because others like him doesn't mean I have to nor does it mean I do. Though, in fact, I like him. I just don't adore him and think he can do no wrong (which is fine if others do).

    This is Plushenko's essence

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVGRZLmIEIw touching video from a very talented and creative Plushy fan.

    about his arrogance:
    "I used to hate him cause I thought he was arrogant, then in this hard times in Egypt I accidentally watched one of his routines. I suddenly felt his connection with the sport, he thinks he is the best, he wants to do his best, he wants everyone to know he is the best. It's not arrogance. He thinks the sport is the best thing in the world, and he wants to be the best in it. He is full of commitment to the sport. If I were a coach I would put someone like him in my team. "

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