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Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #721
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    What you are saying about plushenko and jumps makes no sense! Acting like he never fell or competed injured!! 2002 Olympics, 2005 worlds! Newsflash!!! In 2005 he eliminated the quad from his qualifying free skate and then fell on his attempt on it in the fs! You are like not even using his past and history!! Just ignoring parts that don't fit it to your argument that he wasn't injured in euros 2013 and never competed injured or never fell but there are examples for all those things that prove them! What the heck is going on here!!! It's so strange anD odd and bizarre!!

  2. #722
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    CSG, you think the SC is the only one non-corrupt federation, and the SC is not using his influence?? You're not serious

  3. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    What you are saying about plushenko and jumps makes no sense! Acting like he never fell or competed injured!! 2002 Olympics, 2005 worlds! Newsflash!!! In 2005 he eliminated the quad from his qualifying free skate and then fell on his attempt on it in the fs! You are like not even using his past and history!! Just ignoring parts that don't fit it to your argument that he wasn't injured in euros 2013 and never competed injured or never fell but there are examples for all those things that prove them! What the heck is going on here!!! It's so strange anD odd and bizarre!!
    CSG denies the facts and what is obvious. I can not take him seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think it's arrogance in that he's saying "I know figure skating, so I'm allowed to make speculations with no evidence whatsoever that a skater's federation won him a gold instead of the skater actually achieving that." It's one thing to say Ten should have won (something I agree with), but it's another thing to accuse Skate Canada and question their integrity by suggesting they manipulated and politicked for their skater to win. It is also insulting to things that Chan actually did do well, such as his excellent SP, and the two quads landed in the LP which contributed to the victory. Even saying "Chan didn't win, the judging system did." would have been a more 'accurate' statement (though still an insulting one), but instead he chose to make a defamatory statement against Skate Canada.
    A bit odd that nobody but you feel his comments very offensive here, and kept this topic again and again. Maybe because most of other people found the results of WC2013 are weird and questionable? But As I said, if you think he is arrogant, so be it. You do not need to explain yourself again and again.

    My skepticism is of people saying "the reason he made mistakes in his SP is because of injury". He's been a very consistent jumper in the past, but his jumping ability is diminished from the past... so it makes sense for him to make errors. Note his mistakes in his programs at Russian nationals. Note that he didn't attempt the 4T internationally in his SP last season when he had no problem attempting it before. And he's had more recent problems with his 3Z than in the past. It would be like me saying "Chan must have been injured at Worlds because he's been able to land 3Z's in his sleep when he's healthy enough." to rationalize his poor performance. I agree that injuries may have contributed to a poorer performance, but I can't picture him wanting to compete while injured and further risking injury, against such a strong field that could push him off the podium and likely would have, and in a competition that isn't particularly important which he's won many times before.
    Ya, right, like Plushenko attended several international competitions without quads! He attended competitions two times in the last season, one of them is RN where he performed quads in both his SP and LP. You are so right he did not attempt any quads internationally last season, since he only competed once and only performed a quadless SP. It is really a very great example of saying now Plushenko would not try quads internationally.


    It doesn't seem like he's the type to go for the "old college try" though. He's not the type to just "show up" given his reputation... he comes to win. So he must have felt prepared enough to win. With the Olympics next year, where Plushenko presumably wants to beat Fernandez/Brezina/Joubert/Amodio, it's not smart to show up with an injury and an SP with no quad, and potentially have people say Fernandez/Brezina/Joubert/Amodio can beat me and are technically superior. Injury or not, he would have still been 3rd or 4th after the SP, and with Fernandez's FS, he would have likely lost. So it would have made more sense to rest up until he's back to better health enough to put a quad in his SP so he actually has a legitimate shot against the other guys instead of have reduced content and is simply perceived as trying to "keep up"... not to mention it goes against Plushenko's own words that your program should have a quad.
    Should I thank you for having so much faith in him to show up and win? And to understand your skeptical thinking because he could not reach this goal?

    I get that Plushenko's own words on quads will be used to haunt him by people like you. He should keep his word jumping quads until he could not stand anymore to please people like you. Too bad he still consider his health a little bit more to not performing quads when he felt he could not, and withdraw from the competition to take surgery in order to continue.

    My issue isn't him pulling out of the FS to tend to his health (that fall and the lutz could have indeed exacerbated his injury to a point that he didn't think it was worth it, especially given the standings)... it's with his fans dismissing his poor performance as solely due to injury. It would kind of be like if Chan/Hanyu/Fernandez/Takahashi had said before 2013 Worlds that he's nursing an ankle injury, so then if he he skated well people could say "Oh wow, he did well even while injured!" or in case he skated poorly people could say "Oh, well, he has an injury, so that's why he skated poorly". In Nagano, Stojko didn't want people to know about his groin injury because he didn't want people to make excuses for him or to have lowered expectations.
    You are insane, just insane. if other skaters would not announce their injury, it is their business. If they did, I bet you will use this to defend Chan's bad performance. Plushenko's injuries were known to a lot of people (except you), he had so many operations done on him. He is celebrity in some way, so people who care about him knows his status. People who does not care him, like you, will have your expectations. I do not see you lower your expectation so what is the matter?

    And as for his bad performance, no fans really defended his EC2004 LP melt down performance, right? No one really cited injury for that performance, right? Plushenko himself never said anything to defend that performance, right? In my opinion, you just cannot bear other people have logical way of thinking things. You just mad that people like me will not let you repeat your "skeptical thinking" without fighting for your true purpose: making people believe that Plushenko is done in this sports: "He was only a great consistent jumper to win the games in the past, now he could not even jump so he is over, done!" What's ******* wrong with people thinking his performance is due to his injury? Why you want to correcting this type of thinking over and over again if you do not have your agenda?
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-26-2013 at 11:40 AM.

  5. #725
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    Have we really spent 49 pages discussing if Plushenko can win the 2014 Olympic title?

    In any case, my answer is no. He's been injured, quite severely, for the past few seasons. His body is giving in to the stress of competitive skating. Even with the SOHL, he won't be able to keep up with the young upstarts. He doesn't *need* another Olympic run/title when his name is already in the books as one of the greatest of all time.

  6. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    Ya, right, like Plushenko attended several international competitions without quads! He attended competitions two times in the last season, one of them is RN where he performed quads in both his SP and LP. You are so right he did not attempt any quads internationally last season, since he only competed once and only performed a quadless SP. It is really a very great example of saying now Plushenko would not try quads internationally.

    I get that Plushenko's own words on quads will be used to haunt him by people like you. He should keep his word jumping quads until he could not stand anymore to please people like you. Too bad he still consider his health a little bit more to not performing quads when he felt he could not, and withdraw from the competition to take surgery in order to continue.

    You are insane, just insane. if other skaters would not announce their injury, it is their business. If they did, I bet you will use this to defend Chan's bad performance. Plushenko's injuries were known to a lot of people (except you), he had so many operations done on him. He is celebrity in some way, so people who care about him knows his status. People who does not care him, like you, will have your expectations. I do not see you lower your expectation so what is the matter?

    And as for his bad performance, no fans really defended his EC2004 LP melt down performance, right? No one really cited injury for that performance, right? Plushenko himself never said anything to defend that performance, right? In my opinion, you just cannot bear other people have logical way of thinking things. You just mad that people like me will not let you repeat your "skeptical thinking" without fighting for your true purpose: making people believe that Plushenko is done in this sports: "He was only a great consistent jumper to win the games in the past, now he could not even jump so he is over, done!" What's ******* wrong with people thinking his performance is due to his injury? Why you want to correcting this type of thinking over and over again if you do not have your agenda?
    Actually I wouldn't. If a skater chooses to compete, especially in a competition against a tough field, and especially if they have a standard for winning, then it only makes sense that they go in prepared. I acknowledge when a skater has an injury, and that it can hinder their performance (though one can't tell if a skater fell because of an injury or because they actually screwed up a jump). But I would never use injury as the sole reason for a skater's poor performance, since by competing in the first place that shows the skater believes that they can give a strong performance, regardless of their injury, and without substantial limitation to their level of performance (why risk competing if you know your injury will restrict you from a strong performance?). This isn't a "test" competition or like Nebelhorn/NRW or something... it's Euros where the field will bring their A-game. It's already disadvantageous enough that he didn't have a quad, but if his injury was actually limiting his performance substantially, and there was a risk of further injury, then I can't see Plushenko's rationale for competing.

    Also, you're exaggerating the statements I'm making. I've never said he can't jump and he's so over. I'm saying he was a more consistent jumper in the past, and now he has shown to have some jumping issues, which is understandable given his age and not having the same body as 2002/2006. I don't hold him to a perfect standard where if he makes a mistake it must be because of injury (people exclaiming "he hasn't fallen on a 3A in years, so it must have been injury" is ridiculous because ice is slippery and skaters inevitably make errors). Don't get me wrong, I attribute his poor Euros performance in part due to injury, but I believe it was also him simply making an error and not landing successfully (he's human, after all).

    I also never said he didn't try any quads internationally (look at Euros 2012 FS), nor did I say he wouldn't add quads for Sochi, but the reality is, the majority of his competitions since the Olympics he hasn't done a quad in the SP (hence my criticism of him competing at Euros against a field of guys with quads). And if you're criticizing me for only using a sample size of just two competitions, people who claim Plushenko is at the top of his game use only one international competition - Euros 2012 - to back their prediction, while disregarding his mistakes at Russian Nationals and dismissing Euros 2013 as entirely due to injury, so I fail to see how that's any different. Because Plushenko hasn't competed a whole lot since 2010, for the purposes of the thread predicting if he'll win Sochi, we can only go by the competitions he has had to make our predictions.

    I also don't "hate" him and you only have to look a few posts earlier to see that. Like all skaters, I will be critical of them if and when I think they deserve criticism... and given the topic of the thread, criticism (to go with the confident praises of his fans) is bound to happen.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-26-2013 at 02:04 PM.

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    Skaters often seem to think that somehow that perfect picturing of their programs results in perfect performance regardless of their physical condition.

    Listen to the interview with Debi Thomas that The Skating Lesson did to hear this theory defended in detail.

    Also, you could check out the entire career of Christopher Bowman who made a habit of it (Frank Carroll's interviews with The Skating Lesson).

    I'm sure Rachael Flatt thought she would be just fine at her last Worlds, despite having a broken leg.

    Likewise, I'm sure Alissa Czisny thought that all her hip troubles would magically go away at her most recent Worlds.

    Skaters, like everyone else, like to believe that everything is really OK and their problems are transitory, and that they will be fine when they most need to be fine.

    They are Kings & Queens of DeNile like everyone else.

    So just because a skater competes, it doesn't mean that he/she thinks he's/she's in top shape--

    CSG, isn't it time to let this go? Or do the mods have to close this thread?

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    CSG, just referring to your comments on "I also never said he didn't try any quads..." part, check what I marked out in bold from your own statement.

    My English must be so bad that I could not understand you very clearly.

    And yes, you never said many things in exact words, but the power of words is that it makes people deduce meaning from it. I bet you can get away with any accusation by "I never said those exact words."

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    A bit odd that nobody but you feel his comments very offensive here, and kept this topic again and again. Maybe because most of other people found the results of WC2013 are weird and questionable? But As I said, if you think he is arrogant, so be it. You do not need to explain yourself again and again.
    I'm pretty sure several people found it offensive that Plushenko claimed a federation won Chan his World title. Of course the results are questionable, and many (including myself) think Ten deserved to win. But to say Skate Canada essentially pushed for Chan's win is discrediting the things Chan did well, and is an accusation about Skate Canada's integrity. It's ironic that Plushenko is so insulted by defamatory, unsubstantiated statements of a TV commentator questioning Plushenko's integrity so much that he sues him, but then Plushenko makes a defamatory, unsubstantiated statement that questions Skate Canada's integrity. He could have shared his opinion about 2013 Worlds, without saying that about Chan's federation.

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    I get that Plushenko's own words on quads will be used to haunt him by people like you. He should keep his word jumping quads until he could not stand anymore to please people like you. Too bad he still consider his health a little bit more to not performing quads when he felt he could not, and withdraw from the competition to take surgery in order to continue.
    I don't think he should keep jumping quads to make me happy or to keep his word. I think he should keep jumping quads if he's hoping to stay competitive. I'm assuming he intended a quad in his FS, so I can't see why he wouldn't have attempted it in the SP (especially when it was obvious that he would have needed a quad to keep up with Fernandez/Amodio/Brezina/Joubert). And if you make a statement that "without quad, it's not men's skating... a quad should put you at least 5 points ahead" (especially in a context that makes you appear like an unsportsmanly, sore loser) you better believe that people should call you out if all of a sudden you stop doing SP quads. It's like saying "I don't have transitions" and then crying foul when you don't get high transitions marks.

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    CSG, I guess you never watch The big bang theory. Sometimes you are like Sheldon. (Sorry Sheldon)

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    CSG, just referring to your comments on "I also never said he didn't try any quads..." part, check what I marked out in bold from your own statement.
    My point was that his jumping ability had diminished when in the last season, he had no international attempts at the 4T in the SP, nor did he do it in the Euros 2012 SP. This is compared to his previous standard (from 2000, maybe earlier, up to 2010, he's attempted quads in his SP). Also, if you look at the quads he has executed (speed/height/landing quality), they're not the same quality of quads that he's shown in the past. It's notable that his lutzes are also less consistent.


    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    My English must be so bad that I could not understand you very clearly. And yes, you never said many things in exact words, but the power of words is that it makes people deduce meaning from it. I bet you can get away with any accusation by "I never said those exact words."
    Then that's an issue with what you're deducing from them. If you extrapolate or exaggerate a statement I make, then that's your doing, but don't expect me not to defend myself when I say "I didn't say actually that" and you say "Well, I'm sure this is what you meant". If you look at other threads, you'll see that Plushenko is my pick to go to Sochi of the Russian men, so I have no idea why you would think I'd say he's 'done'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    CSG denies the facts and what is obvious. I can not take him seriously.
    It's very difficult! Just very difficult to leave a discussion if the last word is so absurd! That is what is going on here! The last word can't be absurd!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    Have we really spent 49 pages discussing if Plushenko can win the 2014 Olympic title?

    In any case, my answer is no. He's been injured, quite severely, for the past few seasons. His body is giving in to the stress of competitive skating. Even with the SOHL, he won't be able to keep up with the young upstarts. He doesn't *need* another Olympic run/title when his name is already in the books as one of the greatest of all time.
    Has 49 pages been spent discussing Plushenko in Sochi? Not at all!! I wish!! A big huge part of hit has been whether or not Plushenko has the talent if he was healthy to even come close! Or if he ever had talent! How Chan, Ten, Fernandez, Goebel, Yagudin, Hanyu etc etc have all displayed more talent than Plushenko ever did! How Plushenko from any era in his whole career is inferior to all the skaters skating now and in the past! Obviously I think a disc replacement in the spine is not very encouraging to his chances. But with his tweets and comments Plushenko wants the fans and thanks the fans for having faith in his ability!

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm pretty sure several people found it offensive that Plushenko claimed a federation won Chan his World title. Of course the results are questionable, and many (including myself) think Ten deserved to win. But to say Skate Canada essentially pushed for Chan's win is discrediting the things Chan did well, and is an accusation about Skate Canada's integrity. It's ironic that Plushenko is so insulted by defamatory, unsubstantiated statements of a TV commentator questioning Plushenko's integrity so much that he sues him, but then Plushenko makes a defamatory, unsubstantiated statement that questions Skate Canada's integrity. He could have shared his opinion about 2013 Worlds, without saying that about Chan's federation.



    I don't think he should keep jumping quads to make me happy or to keep his word. I think he should keep jumping quads if he's hoping to stay competitive. I'm assuming he intended a quad in his FS, so I can't see why he wouldn't have attempted it in the SP (especially when it was obvious that he would have needed a quad to keep up with Fernandez/Amodio/Brezina/Joubert). And if you make a statement that "without quad, it's not men's skating... a quad should put you at least 5 points ahead" (especially in a context that makes you appear like an unsportsmanly, sore loser) you better believe that people should call you out if all of a sudden you stop doing SP quads. It's like saying "I don't have transitions" and then crying foul when you don't get high transitions marks.
    Same strategy that workd in 2012! That's why there was no quad in 2013 sp! He agreed with everyone who said he deserved to lose to Gachinski in 2012 in the SP. So that's the fact! His strategy was basic conservation as it has displayed in 2012 and in the 2005 qualifying free skate at worlds where there was no quad and also in the 2005 qualifying free skate he did do two triple axels but one was after the halfway point but I think that was because he doubled his first attempt in my opinion.

    You are not going to have the last word in this thread unless it is closed because I don't think it should end with such extreme absurdity!!

  13. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    My issue isn't him pulling out of the FS to tend to his health (that fall and the lutz could have indeed exacerbated his injury to a point that he didn't think it was worth it, especially given the standings)... it's with his fans dismissing his poor performance as solely due to injury. It would kind of be like if Chan/Hanyu/Fernandez/Takahashi had said before 2013 Worlds that he's nursing an ankle injury, so then if he he skated well people could say "Oh wow, he did well even while injured!" or in case he skated poorly people could say "Oh, well, he has an injury, so that's why he skated poorly". In Nagano, Stojko didn't want people to know about his groin injury because he didn't want people to make excuses for him or to have lowered expectations.
    Why exactly is this an issue (in general, and for you in particular)? It's not an unreasonable assumption.

  14. #734
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm pretty sure several people found it offensive that Plushenko claimed a federation won Chan his World title. Of course the results are questionable, and many (including myself) think Ten deserved to win. But to say Skate Canada essentially pushed for Chan's win is discrediting the things Chan did well, and is an accusation about Skate Canada's integrity. It's ironic that Plushenko is so insulted by defamatory, unsubstantiated statements of a TV commentator questioning Plushenko's integrity so much that he sues him, but then Plushenko makes a defamatory, unsubstantiated statement that questions Skate Canada's integrity. He could have shared his opinion about 2013 Worlds, without saying that about Chan's federation.
    "sigh"

    Plushenko is living in that world since 1998. Maybe he knows more thing about the FS and what happens in the backgound, like you CSG!


    And he wrote that tweet on the twitter, like a privat people, not like a professional commentator.

    Plushy: "Well, I think if you are a sport journalist, you should comment sport precisely and nothing else. No need to comment my personal life, my wife, my kids, my so-called "show business" or whatever. I am not doing any show business. Yes, I have a lot of friends in that field. Probably some people are too concerned about the fact that I have so many friends in show business, in politics, in the theatre and movie worlds. I think journalists should have a more professional approach to their work. If they comment figure skating, so please study this sport, like the difference between lutz and flip jumps. That is what they should talk about: technical skills, programs of skaters, their costumes, choreography, so on. Journalists have to study figure skating before being assigned to comment this sport."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Skaters often seem to think that somehow that perfect picturing of their programs results in perfect performance regardless of their physical condition.

    Listen to the interview with Debi Thomas that The Skating Lesson did to hear this theory defended in detail.

    Also, you could check out the entire career of Christopher Bowman who made a habit of it (Frank Carroll's interviews with The Skating Lesson).

    I'm sure Rachael Flatt thought she would be just fine at her last Worlds, despite having a broken leg.

    Likewise, I'm sure Alissa Czisny thought that all her hip troubles would magically go away at her most recent Worlds.

    Skaters, like everyone else, like to believe that everything is really OK and their problems are transitory, and that they will be fine when they most need to be fine.

    They are Kings & Queens of DeNile like everyone else.

    So just because a skater competes, it doesn't mean that he/she thinks he's/she's in top shape--

    CSG, isn't it time to let this go? Or do the mods have to close this thread?
    I didn't say top shape (skaters are frequently not in top shape), but if you compete, then it shows that you at least have confidence in your ability to produce an acceptable performance -- otherwise you would withdraw to avoid injury or withdraw much earlier so somebody can compete in your stead (it must have annoyed Menshov that he could have competed at Euros had Plushenko pulled out, or annoyed Mirai when she could have competed if Rachael pulled out of Worlds).

    Anyways, I've said what I need to say about Euros, but since it is his most recent competition it has been pertinent with respect to the title of the thread. So in the context of trying to predict if he'll win in Sochi, it makes sense to consider not just the way he skated at Euros but also the injury/surgery. It seems many people think that these days if Plushenko is healthy he'll skate flawlessly, based on past performances -- or that he'll beat Fernandez/Chan considering Euros 2012 and Vancouver 2010 -- but I'm disagreeing with that.

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