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Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Same strategy that workd in 2012! That's why there was no quad in 2013 sp! He agreed with everyone who said he deserved to lose to Gachinski in 2012 in the SP. So that's the fact! His strategy was basic conservation as it has displayed in 2012 and in the 2005 qualifying free skate at worlds where there was no quad and also in the 2005 qualifying free skate he did do two triple axels but one was after the halfway point but I think that was because he doubled his first attempt in my opinion.
    Given the performances of 2013 Euros, do you think that strategy would have still worked? A lot of guys in 2012 Euro gave really subpar performances, whereas this year they were strong -- he would have had trouble even making the podium (especially since he was less injured around the time of Euro 2012 than Euro 2013).

    You also can't compare him not trying a quad in a qualifying in 2005 Worlds when neither Lambiel, Joubert nor Lysacek were against him... why do a quad when your main competition is Li and Lindemann?

    Him continuing a conservative strategy based off of Euros 2012 would be like Denis Ten not adding a 2nd quad to his FS come Sochi, with the rationale that one quad was enough for World silver -- without paying heed to the fact that many of the top guys were not at their best.

  2. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    My point was that his jumping ability had diminished when in the last season, he had no international attempts at the 4T in the SP, nor did he do it in the Euros 2012 SP. This is compared to his previous standard (from 2000, maybe earlier, up to 2010, he's attempted quads in his SP). Also, if you look at the quads he has executed (speed/height/landing quality), they're not the same quality of quads that he's shown in the past. It's notable that his lutzes are also less consistent.




    Then that's an issue with what you're deducing from them. If you extrapolate or exaggerate a statement I make, then that's your doing, but don't expect me not to defend myself when I say "I didn't say actually that" and you say "Well, I'm sure this is what you meant". If you look at other threads, you'll see that Plushenko is my pick to go to Sochi of the Russian men, so I have no idea why you would think I'd say he's 'done'.
    I am sure I am not the only one on this thread who would deduce your words like what I did. I admit I exaggerate it just a little bit to make it sounds sarcasm. That is the reason I deduce from your attitude towards my post the fact that you have probably never watched "the big bang theory", because you are a bit like Sheldon who could not sense when people are serious and when people are being sarcasm.

    I do not care who you pick for Russia, since people with sanity will pick Plushenko (if he could still compete after the surgery) over any other Russian skaters. What you did is just to diminish Plushenko's reputation (over his fans, have to say nice try). That makes your "pick Plushenko over other Russian skaters" excuse nonsense and pathetic.

  3. #738
    Custom Title snowflake's Avatar
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    Please bring back the fun Plushy thread from before Vancouver olympics

  4. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    I am sure I am not the only one on this thread who would deduce your words like what I did. I admit I exaggerate it just a little bit to make it sounds sarcasm. That is the reason I deduce from your attitude towards my post the fact that you have probably never watched "the big bang theory", because you are a bit like Sheldon who could not sense when people are serious and when people are being sarcasm.

    I do not care who you pick for Russia, since people with sanity will pick Plushenko (if he could still compete after the surgery) over any other Russian skaters. What you did is just to diminish Plushenko's reputation (over his fans, have to say nice try). That makes your "pick Plushenko over other Russian skaters" excuse nonsense and pathetic.
    Okay... so just because I don't pick him to be on the podium or win in Sochi I'm suggesting he's "done"? Tell me what I've done to diminish his reputation.

    As for detecting sarcasm, this is the internet -- you can't make something "sound" like sarcasm (unless you put a winky face emoticon or write *sarcasm* or something like that). It might sound okay in your head, but people don't always read your post in the same way you think your post.

    And, as for another unsubstantiated assumption you have made about me, I have watched the Big Bang Theory and it's one of my favourite shows... Sheldon, as annoying as he might be, is also the smartest one who rationalises things based on detailed facts. So, um, thanks I guess.

  5. #740
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    Go Plushy! Be healthy! We would like to see you in Sochi!

    What do you think Doris, it is good last post in this thread?

  6. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Okay... so just because I don't pick him to be on the podium or win in Sochi I'm suggesting he's "done"? Tell me what I've done to diminish his reputation.

    As for detecting sarcasm, this is the internet -- you can't make something "sound" like sarcasm (unless you put a winky face emoticon or write *sarcasm* or something like that). It might sound okay in your head, but people don't always read your post in the same way you think your post.

    And, as for another unsubstantiated assumption you have made about me, I have watched the Big Bang Theory and it's one of my favourite shows... Sheldon, as annoying as he might be, is also the smartest one who rationalises things based on detailed facts. So, um, thanks I guess.
    I am perfectly fine with you assuming that he could not win Sochi. As a fan, I hope he would win, just as other skaters fans wish their favorite would win. That is not the part where people will deduce he is done. You are very smart, first to build up that Plushenko is great skater with consistent jumps, and then try to set up the image that Plushenko's wins over other skaters are purely because he is a great consistent jumper, because apparently his other abilities are just average, or even below average. Then you repeatedly "correct" people's assumption that Plushenko's bad performance on EC2013 is due to his injury, and insisting that the cause of Plushenko's fall is because the jumping ability of Plushenko is diminished. Since you insist that this diminishing ability has nothing to do with Plushenko's injury, it only means that you want people to believe that now Plushenko's only advantage (which was established by yourself) is now gone.

    Yes, you never say he is done, but your posts are pretty much hinted that. And it is perfect fine for you to think "it is you who deduce my post like that", but do not expect people would assume you're being innocent on this topic.

    I said "you have probably never watched...". So you proved me wrong. That is fine. And if you could only sense sarcasm via symbols, I have nothing else to say. Because apparently you cannot sense any sarcasm without the help of smileys.

    And yes, Sheldon is the smartest one in the show, that is why I put (sorry Sheldon) in my post.

  7. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Skaters often seem to think that somehow that perfect picturing of their programs results in perfect performance regardless of their physical condition.

    Listen to the interview with Debi Thomas that The Skating Lesson did to hear this theory defended in detail.

    Also, you could check out the entire career of Christopher Bowman who made a habit of it (Frank Carroll's interviews with The Skating Lesson).

    I'm sure Rachael Flatt thought she would be just fine at her last Worlds, despite having a broken leg.

    Likewise, I'm sure Alissa Czisny thought that all her hip troubles would magically go away at her most recent Worlds.

    Skaters, like everyone else, like to believe that everything is really OK and their problems are transitory, and that they will be fine when they most need to be fine.

    They are Kings & Queens of DeNile like everyone else.

    So just because a skater competes, it doesn't mean that he/she thinks he's/she's in top shape--
    You beat me to to it! This is exactly true. Every athlete thinks, "I can gut it out -- oops, I guess I can't."

    In Plushenko's case, I remember reading that his wife, mother, mother-in-law, coach's cousin's grandfather, and the Prime Minister all told him not to compete, but Evgeni brushed them all aside. In my book, anyone who defies his mother-in-law -- that's more manly than a thousand quads!

    It is also true that every skater has fans who say, after a good performance, "Wow, he won despite all the injuries that he has suffered!" And after a bad, "Well, of course he couldn't skate his best -- he was injured."

    (OT: Alissa is going to come back next year and make all the doubters eat their words. )
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-26-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  8. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Given the performances of 2013 Euros, do you think that strategy would have still worked? A lot of guys in 2012 Euro gave really subpar performances, whereas this year they were strong -- he would have had trouble even making the podium (especially since he was less injured around the time of Euro 2012 than Euro 2013).

    You also can't compare him not trying a quad in a qualifying in 2005 Worlds when neither Lambiel, Joubert nor Lysacek were against him... why do a quad when your main competition is Li and Lindemann?

    Him continuing a conservative strategy based off of Euros 2012 would be like Denis Ten not adding a 2nd quad to his FS come Sochi, with the rationale that one quad was enough for World silver -- without paying heed to the fact that many of the top guys were not at their best.
    What he would had done in a euros 2013 fs will be a mystery! I don't know if he would have done exactly what he did at Russian nationals or what he tried at 2012 Japan open. you say the only reason he withdrew is that he saw no way of winning but he had tried two different free skates at the two previous competitions he did. But he was too injured to even try. Maybe he could've won maybe he would have lost he lost in his career before. I don't believe your opinion that he could not survive a loss to Fernandez or amodio or kovtun and he would have been destroyed for Sochi as an emporer with no clothes and exposed as a no talent. Lol he lost to Sandhu once. Joubert another one. the issue of him competing injured is well documented. You divorce his problems from injury at this point but previously in his career he did similar things when he was injured like 2005 worlds in the qr.

  9. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    You beat me to to it! This is exactly true. Every athlete thinks, "I can gut it out -- oops, I guess I can't."
    This is why I almost never have the heart to get angry with a skater who shows up injured and doesn't back out in time to give another skater the spot. They always think that they can defeat their bodies as well as their opponents. It makes Michelle's timely withdrawal at Turin even more impressive, and it makes Plushenko's efforts to make it back to Olympic ice completely understandable. With Evgeny, it's generally a mistake to count him out. My only hope is that he doesn't endanger himself physically. If he can stay safe (spinally speaking), he should have at it!

  10. #745
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    Too bad Artur cannot jump consistently. I like his style..

  11. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    Too bad Artur cannot jump consistently. I like his style..
    I just wonder if he beats Kovtun like he did at 2013 Russian nationals in 2014 would Kovtun still be favored? Surely doing so badly damaged his reputation a little? Or because the federation likes Kovtun better now it wouldn't matter? If there is no Plushenko is there any chance Gachinski could replace Kovtun? When you have a skater like Kovtun where it just doesn't matter how he performs will there be a limit? I would hope Gachinski has a shot. I would like see to him be top 10 in Sochi! Somehow to a Euros 2012 performance again! The best non Pluhsenko performance in 10 years from a Russian man!! Nothing matched that from 2002 to 2012! The federation is trying to make something out of Kovtun but he's not doing a Gachinski worlds 2011 or euros 2012.

  12. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    What he would had done in a euros 2013 fs will be a mystery! I don't know if he would have done exactly what he did at Russian nationals or what he tried at 2012 Japan open. you say the only reason he withdrew is that he saw no way of winning but he had tried two different free skates at the two previous competitions he did. But he was too injured to even try. Maybe he could've won maybe he would have lost he lost in his career before. I don't believe your opinion that he could not survive a loss to Fernandez or amodio or kovtun and he would have been destroyed for Sochi as an emporer with no clothes and exposed as a no talent. Lol he lost to Sandhu once. Joubert another one. the issue of him competing injured is well documented. You divorce his problems from injury at this point but previously in his career he did similar things when he was injured like 2005 worlds in the qr.
    No, he could not have won. He would have needed a score of 200.06 points to beat Fernandez. I agree that he could handle a loss to Fernandez (considering it was the 2nd highest total score of all time, anyone would have had a hard time beating that)... but it would be a blow to his Sochi bid if he were off the podium. He would have needed 170 points to place 3rd, which is possible for him but he would have needed a perfect skate. And even with his personal best FS score from Euros 2012 he wouldn't have caught Amodio for silver. So since he was injured, it made sense not to fight for a bronze.

    Like I said, I attribute problems that he had as in part due to injury. I have also said his general skating/choreography has much improved since 2010 (and yes, between 2006 and 2010 I would have called his choreography "average" IMO, but not after 2010)... though it hasn't improved to a point that can challenge the program content of Takahashi and Chan. My point was that even when healthier in the past two seasons, he's still had jumping issues, so if you ask my opinion of whether he'll be able to win in Sochi I would turn to those jumping issues, and his PCS, and say his chances of winning are questionable. I also question Chan's ability to win given his recent consistency issues, but he still has the PCS scores to keep him in the running and he's still pulling 250/260+ even with major errors (so assuming he gets it together by Sochi and has less or no errors he would certainly be ahead).

    Plushenko does not have as high PCS scores, his jumps as of late haven't been as consistent as in the past (and that's even if we excluded Euro 2013), and to top that off, he's injured and had surgery. That's a lot of things not going in his favour. I would have said the same thing about Stojko's chances in 2002 - even though he was capable of a quad/3A his jumps weren't as consistent as the 90's, he had a nagging groin injury, and he didn't get the highest presentation scores of the top guys... so his chances of medaling were slim.

  13. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    Since you insist that this diminishing ability has nothing to do with Plushenko's injury, it only means that you want people to believe that now Plushenko's only advantage (which was established by yourself) is now gone.
    I never said his diminished jumping ability has nothing to do with his injury - obviously it is in part attributed to his injury; I also attribute to the fact that consistency is very difficult to maintain especially when you're his age. Which is why I'm skeptical of people saying "if he's healthy, he'll win" because him "being healthy" in 2014 is a different body than him "being healthy" in 2010/2006, especially with his recent surgeries. It's remarkable how resilient he's been, but you can only fix a machine so many times before it starts to get defective. I would hope that he makes it to Sochi healthy and is thus able to give it his best effort, but the field is much stronger than in 2010 and 2006 so his success isn't as sure a bet.

    And I don't "want people to believe" anything... I'm stating my opinion, and others have theirs. But if you're going to repeat my opinion to comment on it, please make sure that it's something I've actually said and not some exaggeration or interpretation.

  14. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post

    Plushenko does not have as high PCS scores, his jumps as of late haven't been as consistent as in the past (and that's even if we excluded Euro 2013), and to top that off, he's injured and had surgery. That's a lot of things not going in his favour. I would have said the same thing about Stojko's chances in 2002 - even though he was capable of a quad/3A his jumps weren't as consistent as the 90's, he had a nagging groin injury, and he didn't get the highest presentation scores of the top guys... so his chances of medaling were slim.
    I show you again(I'm very petient ):
    PCS
    ECH 2012:
    Plush 88,84
    Javi 76,78

    2012 WCH:
    Chan 90,14
    Javi 75,66
    Hanyu 83,0
    Dai 85,78

    ECH2013:
    Javi 89,42

    WCH 2013:
    Javi 85,30
    Chan 89,28
    Hanyu 80,0
    Ten 87,16
    Dai 85,0

    So, what are you talking about?

  15. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It's ironic that Plushenko is so insulted by defamatory, unsubstantiated statements of a TV commentator questioning Plushenko's integrity so much that he sues him, but then Plushenko makes a defamatory, unsubstantiated statement that questions Skate Canada's integrity.
    One more idiotic statement of the local buffon. Zhurankov was the only attention seeker who came up with his statement that Plu faked his operation. I don't remember any internet coo-coo, even on GS where you found your harbour, who would say anything like that. Plu's opinion was shared widely by specialists, some skaters themeselves, as well as zil of various posters on forums. You obviously didn't have internet connection at that moment.

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