Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title? | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

bestskate8

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
I say he's a jumper because jumps are critical to his performance because his choreography or the intricacy of his programs (particularly in 2010 and prior to that) wasn't nearly the level of the other guys. At that time, if you took out the jumps there really wouldn't be a whole lot left in his programs choreography-wise (though some of his spins were good, and his energy in footwork sequences is great even if the footwork itself isn't particularly complex). Interpretation is up to some people... I agree that he's expressive, but I'm personally not a fan of the winks or hip thrusts -- it's excessive and "exhibition"y. I get he's playing to the audience, but stuff like that ruins the interpretation and character of the program.

They'll remember his skating for its high difficulty and consistent jumping more than for its complexity/interpretation. Although certainly in places outside of North America his style would be appreciated more. At risk of sounding pretentious, I think North American audiences are more attuned to subtlety (which could also come across as safe or boring if it's too subtle), whereas European audiences are fans of flamboyance and theatrics (which could also come across as over the top).

If you are really believe, as a fact, that NA style of skating is more artistic more complex and so on, then I MUST be Sophia Loren :biggrin:

Why not move on from Plushenko 2010 to Plushenko THESE days and FIANALLY watch his recent skating at RN, shows and so on. You will be very surprised what you see. Plushenko is a quick learner and he surpassed already Chan 2013 in many areas, please watch him and witness it for yourself.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
1) If you are really believe, as a fact, that NA style of skating is more artistic more complex and so on, then I MUST be Sophia Loren :biggrin:

Why not move on from Plushenko 2010 to Plushenko THESE days and FIANALLY watch his recent skating at RN, shows and so on. You will be very surprised what you see. Plushenko is a quick learner and he surpassed already Chan 2013 in many areas, please watch him and witness it for yourself.

When did I say that? I said nothing about the NA style of skating being more artistic or more complex in my original post -- I said that NA style is more subtle and Euro style is more theatrical, as a general statement. Obviously skaters like Fernandez can reel in the theatrics but still be artistic, but Europe has always been known as more dramatic.

I have watched his FS at Russian nationals (and Euros 2012) and acknowledged how great an improvement it was compared to his past. Plushenko 2012 has certainly surpassed Plushenko 2010, but I would be curious as to what "many areas" you think Plushenko has surpassed Chan, other than consistency which was always better than Chan's (and any other post-IJS skater, for that matter). Chan's choreography, transitions, and skating skills are tangible criteria that are certainly better, but subjective criteria-wise, in my opinion, Chan's interpretation/musicality is better, not to mention Chan attempts greater difficulty. Not to say Plushenko hasn't greatly improved those areas than before, but IMO he hasn't surpassed Chan or Takahashi, and in many ways has yet to surpass newer skaters like Fernandez and Hanyu with regards to choreography and transitions and difficulty.

Also when you say 2013 Chan, I'm guessing you'll pick and choose where Chan did technically poorly like Worlds and WTT, without regarding competitions where he did well like his SP at Worlds or his LP at Rostelcom, right? It would be like saying Plushenko did well at RN so he's surpassed Takahashi who had a bad Worlds/4CC?
 

gmyers

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Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I don't think anyone denies that Plushenko is talented. And in my opinion, his talents have predominantly been in jumping and performance moreso than skating skills, choreography and interpretation.

He's got tons of talent in skating skills and choreo and interpretation. It's why he got not only 6.0 in presentation but also go high pcs in IJS. I know you think he deserved zeroes in pcs and o.o in presentstion but be got the total opposite that and got 6.0 but pre 8,s and 9's in choreo ss and int.

Your belief is that Fernandez is far and away superior to what plushenko ever was is too out there. Hanyu to is alpacas apparently better than plushenko ever was! Amazing. Like really?

In 2012 euros plushenko crushed Fernandez on everything. He has not competed against hanyu and maybe never will but I think most would agree plushenko has had a more impressive career than hanyu even if you would disagree and say hanyu is better than plushenko.

Plushenko got level 4 step sequences which combines ss choreo and interpretation.

If you think plushenko is so untalented and inferior in every way to hanyu and fernandez why don't you look at his euro 2012 performance even once!
 

plushyfan

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Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
You will be surprised, but those people never ever watch Plushenko skate, especially life. When was last time Plushenko was invited to skate life in NA? 2004? Forget about Oly 2010, its not affordable for many people. They didn't see him almost 10 years, but are always so knowledgeable about his artistic side, judging from top view camera angels.:laugh:

He was on Fashion on ice in 2006, Tylenol skating and Gymnastic spectacular in 2007, COI in 2008. And he was invited to a show in december of 2010, San Antonio, but he didn't go.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
He's got tons of talent in skating skills and choreo and interpretation. It's why he got not only 6.0 in presentation but also go high pcs in IJS. I know you think he deserved zeroes in pcs and o.o in presentstion but be got the total opposite that and got 6.0 but pre 8,s and 9's in choreo ss and int.

Your belief is that Fernandez is far and away superior to what plushenko ever was is too out there. Hanyu to is alpacas apparently better than plushenko ever was! Amazing. Like really?

In 2012 euros plushenko crushed Fernandez on everything. He has not competed against hanyu and maybe never will but I think most would agree plushenko has had a more impressive career than hanyu even if you would disagree and say hanyu is better than plushenko.

Plushenko got level 4 step sequences which combines ss choreo and interpretation.

If you think plushenko is so untalented and inferior in every way to hanyu and fernandez why don't you look at his euro 2012 performance even once!

Stop saying I said (or assume that I think) things that I've never said. When did I say he deserved zeroes in PCS?

I also didn't say Fernandez is superior to what Plushenko ever was, and I specified which ways I think he's superior to Plushenko (contrary to you saying I've said Plushenko is inferior in every way to Fernandez). And why are you using 2012 Euros as an example? With Fernandez's 2013 Euros performance he would have crushed Plushenko, injured or not... Fernandez's 2013 Euros LP scored 10 points higher than Plushenko at Euros 2012 (and his total, a personal best, was 13 points higher than Plushenko's personal best at Euros 2012... Hanyu's personal best also beats Plushenko's personal best from Euros 2012, by the way). I

Also at Euros 2012 Plushenko got level 3's in both the SP and FS -- not level 4's as you just said. At Euros 2013, his step sequence was a level 2.

Get your facts straight -- including your statements about what I have or haven't said.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Stop saying I said (or assume that I think) things that I've never said. When did I say he deserved zeroes in PCS?

I also didn't say Fernandez is superior to what Plushenko ever was, and I specified which ways I think he's superior to Plushenko (contrary to you saying I've said Plushenko is inferior in every way to Fernandez). And why are you using 2012 Euros as an example? With Fernandez's 2013 Euros performance he would have crushed Plushenko, injured or not... Fernandez's 2013 Euros LP scored 10 points higher than Plushenko at Euros 2012 (and his total, a personal best, was 13 points higher than Plushenko's personal best at Euros 2012... Hanyu's personal best also beats Plushenko's personal best from Euros 2012, by the way). I

Also at Euros 2012 Plushenko got level 3's in both the SP and FS -- not level 4's as you just said. At Euros 2013, his step sequence was a level 2.

Get your facts straight -- including your statements about what I have or haven't said.


The level 4 step sequences was from 2006 and I never said it was from euros 2012 or 2013. The issue is if plushenko is so untalented in ss, choreo and in how did ever get the world or Olympic titles he got? Why is he not Chengjiang li or Kevin van der perren or have medals like Tim goebel? Two world silvers and an Olympic bronze. If there is such a level of poor quality in ch or in or ss how did he get where he is? I really don't know what you are saying or trying to say because you are questioning the legitimacy of almost everything about plushenkos skating when it comes to program and components and basics and getting points for those things!

Yeah I took the competition where Fernandez and plushenko actually competed sgainst each other in sp and lp!
 

plushyfan

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Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
I don't think anyone denies that Plushenko is talented. And in my opinion, his talents have predominantly been in jumping and performance moreso than skating skills, choreography and interpretation.

OMG CSG! You really don't understand. For us do not need better choreographies than the Bolero, Carmen, Moonlight Sonata, Adagio, St Peterburgh 300, etc. Not to mention except the Moon Son they were under the old system. We love them! And do you think, for ex, the Carmen was not interpreted?
 

yaya124

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
When did I say that? I said nothing about the NA style of skating being more artistic or more complex in my original post -- I said that NA style is more subtle and Euro style is more theatrical, as a general statement. Obviously skaters like Fernandez can reel in the theatrics but still be artistic, but Europe has always been known as more dramatic.

So can I assume what you said here is Fernandez can be both theatrics but at the same time still be artistic, but Plushenko is only full of drama but not very artistic?

I have watched his FS at Russian nationals (and Euros 2012) and acknowledged how great an improvement it was compared to his past. Plushenko 2012 has certainly surpassed Plushenko 2010, but I would be curious as to what "many areas" you think Plushenko has surpassed Chan, other than consistency which was always better than Chan's (and any other post-IJS skater, for that matter). Chan's choreography, transitions, and skating skills are tangible criteria that are certainly better, but subjective criteria-wise, in my opinion, Chan's interpretation/musicality is better, not to mention Chan attempts greater difficulty. Not to say Plushenko hasn't greatly improved those areas than before, but IMO he hasn't surpassed Chan or Takahashi, and in many ways has yet to surpass newer skaters like Fernandez and Hanyu with regards to choreography and transitions and difficulty.
Plushenko must be very glad that you think he improved a lot although not make him top level.
Maybe as a Plushenko fan I should also feel gracious that you think he improves?
I hope Plushenko will never be "as good as" Chan in interpretation/musicality, that is simple boring and not pleasing to the eye (maybe Chan's feet are, not his other parts of body).


Also when you say 2013 Chan, I'm guessing you'll pick and choose where Chan did technically poorly like Worlds and WTT, without regarding competitions where he did well like his SP at Worlds or his LP at Rostelcom, right? It would be like saying Plushenko did well at RN so he's surpassed Takahashi who had a bad Worlds/4CC?

Plushenko did not perform well at RN2013 or RN2012, obviously he was not in great shape. As for Chan, it is so easy to find a clean performance of him to compare with others :popcorn:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Plushyfan, from a fan's perspective, his programs will always be perfect to you and that's totally fine to admire him and think that of him... but from a technical skating perspective, most of Plushenko's career had a lot to be desired. In 2012, for the first time I started to appreciate his actual SKATING, and not just jumping. Prior to that, he was a jumping machine with moments of over the top interpretation. That link at the top of the page shows he's certainly capable of subtley and fluidity, unlike previous years. It does bode well for future performances. Plushenko's 2012 Euros LP scored higher PCS and yet wasn't as clean as his 2010 Olympics LP. To me that shows that at least the judges are crediting him for improving.

The level 4 step sequences was from 2006 and I never said it was from euros 2012 or 2013. The issue is if plushenko is so untalented in ss, choreo and in how did ever get the world or Olympic titles he got? Why is he not Chengjiang li or Kevin van der perren or have medals like Tim goebel? Two world silvers and an Olympic bronze. If there is such a level of poor quality in ch or in or ss how did he get where he is? I really don't know what you are saying or trying to say because you are questioning the legitimacy of almost everything about plushenkos skating when it comes to program and components and basics and getting points for those things!

Yeah I took the competition where Fernandez and plushenko actually competed sgainst each other in sp and lp!

Sorry, I should have guessed that you were referring to 2006 when you sandwich that statement in between two statements about Euros 2012 and make no mention of 2006. :rolleye:

I didn't say he's untalented in SS, CH, IN... I said he's inferior in those departments compared to other skaters (Lambiel, Takahashi, Chan)... and he got his World titles and Olympic medals primarily on the basis of his strong jumping ability (his 2006 Olympic LP was practically barren choreography-wise and was just a jump fest, with nobody else in the field coming even close to technically matching his difficulty or his level of clean programs). Euros 2012 shows he's capable of better artistry but if we're talking what he's done most of his career, it's been jumping. I mean, how would you compare his 2006 Olympic gold LP to his 2012 Euros gold LP? My guess is that in the past two years, he's come to a realisation that he really needs a program if he's going to still be competitive.

And, you took a competition where Fernandez skated poorly to prove your point. It would be as inaccurate as saying Buttle beating Plushenko at the Japan Open where they actually competed against each other in SP and LP means that Buttle's better than Plushenko. It would be like saying Ten has better choreography and interpretation than Takahashi because at their most recent head-to-head competition, Ten thoroughly outscored Takahashi overall and in several PCS areas in the FS... but we all know Takahashi performed poorly and has better CH/IN than most if not all of the field.

If you take their best competitions, Fernandez handily wins. Even if Plushenko weren't injured and skated like he did at Euros 2012 (his personal best) at Euros 2013 he still would have most likely lost to Fernandez.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I didn't say he's untalented in SS, CH, IN... I said he's inferior in those departments compared to other skaters (Lambiel, Takahashi, Chan)... and he got his World titles and Olympic medals primarily on the basis of his strong jumping ability (his 2006 Olympic LP was practically barren choreography-wise and was just a jump fest, with nobody else in the field coming even close to technically matching his difficulty or his level of clean programs). Euros 2012 shows he's capable of better artistry but if we're talking what he's done most of his career, it's been jumping. I mean, how would you compare his 2006 Olympic gold LP to his 2012 Euros gold LP? My guess is that in the past two years, he's come to a realisation that he really needs a program if he's going to still be competitive.

The thing is, he is going to get high PCS just based on who he is. Not as high as Chan, but I don't think if Plushenko is clean he is going to get the 8th highest PCS marks either. Furthermore, being in Russia, if Plushenko is clean and Chan falls once, Chan will not beat Plushenko (assuming similar tech content). The entire country would be in an uproar, even more than the pairs event in SLC. Now I'm not saying Plushenko SHOULD win in this situation, because I think Chan is more than 1 fall better, but he will just based on who he is.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
If you take their best competitions, Fernandez handily wins. Even if Plushenko weren't injured and skated like he did at Euros 2012 (his personal best) at Euros 2013 he still would have most likely lost to Fernandez.

For me, I don't usually get pulled into discussions of what would happen if this skater gives his best performance (he won't) or if that skater doesn't fall down (he will) or if the other skater goes clean (he won't). We will have to wait and see. If, God willing, Plushenko is in sound health he has as good a chance as anyone. :yes:
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
And I find it interesting how often people say that Chan is so-and-so many falls better than such-and-such. How come no one seems to compare Plushy in how many falls he has on other skaters. Why is that? Hmmmm....
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
For me, I don't usually get pulled into discussions of what would happen if this skater gives his best performance (he won't) or if that skater doesn't fall down (he will) or if the other skater goes clean (he won't). We will have to wait and see. If, God willing, Plushenko is in sound health he has as good a chance as anyone. :yes:

dmd brought up a good point in that if Plushenko does go clean, it will be difficult to not give him the PCS in front of a Russian crowd. But as what happened with the Canadian pairs losing to the Germans, he still might lose even if his competitors mess up after you do the math (he'll need the base value of his life).

I don't know if he has as good a chance as Takahashi or Chan or Fernandez or Hanyu. If those guys go clean, he will likely not win but might medal. But that's a big "if" considering the inconsistencies of the rest of the field and their ambitious programs.

He will need to skate cleanly though and doesn't have as much margin for error as Chan/Takahashi. Hence what LRK said about he doesn't have a fall-cushion on the rest of the field; if anything he needs the rest of the field to bomb.

I can only hope that clean skating is rewarded, and that all the guys will bring their A-game. And you can bet Plushenko will do everything he can to bring his, particularly in front of a home crowd.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think what LRK meant was that Plushenko doesn't fall. ;)

Hah I assumed that was the implication, but you could also argue that because his skating/PCS isn't up to par (while improved) on the rest of the field, they have a fall cushion on him but not the other way around. ;) As for him never falling, I know he was injured at Euros but at Japan Open he also fell. I'm curious as to how consistent he'll be after surgery and getting his jumps back (I'm a bit more skeptical than 2010, but still hope he does recover).
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Plushyfan, from a fan's perspective, his programs will always be perfect to you and that's totally fine to admire him and think that of him... but from a technical skating perspective, most of Plushenko's career had a lot to be desired. In 2012, for the first time I started to appreciate his actual SKATING, and not just jumping. Prior to that, he was a jumping machine with moments of over the top interpretation. That link at the top of the page shows he's certainly capable of subtley and fluidity, unlike previous years. It does bode well for future performances. Plushenko's 2012 Euros LP scored higher PCS and yet wasn't as clean as his 2010 Olympics LP. To me that shows that at least the judges are crediting him for improving.



Sorry, I should have guessed that you were referring to 2006 when you sandwich that statement in between two statements about Euros 2012 and make no mention of 2006. :rolleye:

I didn't say he's untalented in SS, CH, IN... I said he's inferior in those departments compared to other skaters (Lambiel, Takahashi, Chan)... and he got his World titles and Olympic medals primarily on the basis of his strong jumping ability (his 2006 Olympic LP was practically barren choreography-wise and was just a jump fest, with nobody else in the field coming even close to technically matching his difficulty or his level of clean programs). Euros 2012 shows he's capable of better artistry but if we're talking what he's done most of his career, it's been jumping. I mean, how would you compare his 2006 Olympic gold LP to his 2012 Euros gold LP? My guess is that in the past two years, he's come to a realisation that he really needs a program if he's going to still be competitive.

And, you took a competition where Fernandez skated poorly to prove your point. It would be as inaccurate as saying Buttle beating Plushenko at the Japan Open where they actually competed against each other in SP and LP means that Buttle's better than Plushenko. It would be like saying Ten has better choreography and interpretation than Takahashi because at their most recent head-to-head competition, Ten thoroughly outscored Takahashi overall and in several PCS areas in the FS... but we all know Takahashi performed poorly and has better CH/IN than most if not all of the field.

If you take their best competitions, Fernandez handily wins. Even if Plushenko weren't injured and skated like he did at Euros 2012 (his personal best) at Euros 2013 he still would have most likely lost to Fernandez.

LOL you don't stop at Lambiel Takahashi Chan you have continued to Fernadez Hanyu and virtually everyone else! But lots of people have been good jumpers if not as consistent over multiple competitions than certainly in individual ones. Where is Zhang Min's world title? Chengjiang Li's world title? Brian Joubert was better than Plushenko in 2004 - Plushenko fell in that worlds and Plushenko still won. There are so many instances of great jumpers not having the medals of Plushenko does. By your writing you are very clear that for Plushenko all good PCS and before that 6.0 was just a bonus for being a consistent jumper! LOL! Virtually everyone else who ever skated or is skating is better than Plushenko. SS, CH, IN all crap compared to everyone else? WHy ere judges so blind to him being so awful and giving him good scores? Why did not they view him as they did Zhang MIn or Chengjiang Li or Kevin Van Der Perren? Or forget them how about Tim Goebel? Why did Plushenko win over Goebel in 2003? They were both jumpers and nothing else so why did Plushenko win over Goebel? I mean if judges were only giving him marks because of his jumps why wouldn't they give Goebel the win?

The main point in bringing up Fernandez in 2012 was because he was there and improved over the previous compeittions where Plushenko competed against Fernandez which was Euros 2010 and the Olympics? Obviously the record is Plushenko 3-0 against fernadez where they both competed SP and LP.

I view 2012 LP from Plushenko better than The Godfather but not worthless like you do. That is the main difference. Every performance you have seen from Plushenko is basiscally worthless compared to Chan, takahashi, Lambiel, Hany, Fernandez? Anyone else I am missing? Maybe Lysacek too right?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
LOL you don't stop at Lambiel Takahashi Chan you have continued to Fernadez Hanyu and virtually everyone else! But lots of people have been good jumpers if not as consistent over multiple competitions than certainly in individual ones. Where is Zhang Min's world title? Chengjiang Li's world title? Brian Joubert was better than Plushenko in 2004 - Plushenko fell in that worlds and Plushenko still won. There are so many instances of great jumpers not having the medals of Plushenko does. By your writing you are very clear that for Plushenko all good PCS and before that 6.0 was just a bonus for being a consistent jumper! LOL! Virtually everyone else who ever skated or is skating is better than Plushenko. SS, CH, IN all crap compared to everyone else? WHy ere judges so blind to him being so awful and giving him good scores? Why did not they view him as they did Zhang MIn or Chengjiang Li or Kevin Van Der Perren? Or forget them how about Tim Goebel? Why did Plushenko win over Goebel in 2003? They were both jumpers and nothing else so why did Plushenko win over Goebel? I mean if judges were only giving him marks because of his jumps why wouldn't they give Goebel the win?

The main point in bringing up Fernandez in 2012 was because he was there and improved over the previous compeittions where Plushenko competed against Fernandez which was Euros 2010 and the Olympics? Obviously the record is Plushenko 3-0 against fernadez where they both competed SP and LP.

I view 2012 LP from Plushenko better than The Godfather but not worthless like you do. That is the main difference. Every performance you have seen from Plushenko is basiscally worthless compared to Chan, takahashi, Lambiel, Hany, Fernandez? Anyone else I am missing? Maybe Lysacek too right?

Titles don't mean everything. Janet Lynn and Toller Cranston never won Worlds, but their interpretation and artistry and skating skills are some of the best ever.

Min/Goebel/Li/Van Der Perren were all jumpers purely and their artistic ability paled in comparison to their technical ability, and to the artistic ability of the rest of the field. Even when they skated clean they wouldn't win because of their lack of artistry. Again, Plushenko isn't devoid of artistry... but it's not really a fair fight to pit him against guys who are known jump technicians. Just like it's not a fair fight to bring up Plushenko's record against Fernandez, when really it was the 2011-2012 season Fernandez started to blossom and 2012-2013 season that he actually became a consistent contender among the big guys.

Fernandez had improved in 2012 but by no means was he a huge threat to Plushenko... he placed 6th at those Euros and 9th at Worlds that year. Do you honestly think Plushenko would have won Euros this year the way Javier skated, even if he weren't injured and went clean? The reason I bring up Fernandez is because he's clearly a threat to Plushenko in Sochi, and PCS-wise, Fernandez has surpassed Plushenko in some respects. If you're using their last head to head as an indication of who's better, there's a lot that has happened since then. Even if Javier had skated his best he still would have probably lost to Plushenko at Euros 2012... his PCS has grown tremendously this year, and it's this year that he's truly surpassed people like Plushenko and Joubert and Amodio in terms of skating quality and choreography.

I should also say that I think pre-IJS Plushenko had better programs and interpretation than post-IJS-to-2010 Plushenko. It seems that when CoP was introduced, Plushenko focused on what earned him points -- the jumps -- and having been established he was bound to get high PCS if he simply delivered a clean program, regardless of the inbetween content (because none of the other guys other than Yagudin could match him technically). This was the period his programs declined artistically, IMO -- I mean, look at the first minute of both of his 2006 and 2010 Olympic programs... it's literally just basic stroking between jumping passes one after another. His 2002 Olympic FS to Carmen was better artistically than his 2006 or 2010, in my opinion, and he seemed more into the character of the program instead of focusing on checking off a jump list. I really wish Yagudin had stayed on, or Buttle had a quad, or Lambiel was more consistent with his 3A, or Takahashi peaked sooner because they could have absolutely pushed Plushenko to improve his PCS and we could have seen his 2012 Euros PCS ability sooner (and he'd likely have a second Olympic gold if it had happened).
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
When I watched Euros 2012 in the sp I was first row and Plush's sp looked ok to me. In the Lp I was in the 99th row, Plushenko looked like a fly on the ice and yet I remember his skate like it was the first time watching figure skating, the personality and energy he produced were amazing and there was a wow in the air. If he can ever skate again I wish for him to have this skate at Sochi even if he doesnt win anything, and btw with this skate I believe he could have medal to this years Euros and Worlds.His pcs last year were fine, 88+ is not that low.
 
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