How will Kwan and/or Kim be viewed in the future?

hello!!
I believe Michelle will be one of the most Greats. We can look at her in the many competitions. She has been proved as a Great Skater anytime, before and now on. And maybe in the future. It's impossible to wipe her memory from my mind.
Yu-na doesn't make me so yet. And I don't think she is the all-around skater. (We must wait Sochi. Too early to discuss.)

if yuna wins another gold in sochi, i bet she'll zoom into the #1 spot for her combination of competitive nerve, technical difficulty, and artistic expression... and doing it all under the potentially soul crushing pressure of carrying a nation on her young shoulders (i mean, i still have sad memories of midori having to apologize to all of japan for her fall in albertville). i think yuna really outdid herself this year. her performance at worlds was effortless, almost unbelievably so--i think it was mathman who said it was the closest thing to a 6.0 skate under CoP. michelle, even without an OGM, will always be one of the all-time greats. i think she's a high watermark in the development of FREE skating coupled with the arsenal of triple jumps. the legacies of great american women's champions like peggy, janet, dorothy, and kristi are all contained within her skating. and had she come of age under CoP, given her competitive spirit, i'm sure she still would have been a champion.

anthologyz said:

if yuna wins another gold in sochi, i bet she'll zoom into the #1 spot for her combination of competitive nerve, technical difficulty, and artistic expression... and doing it all under the potentially soul crushing pressure of carrying a nation on her young shoulders (i mean, i still have sad memories of midori having to apologize to all of japan for her fall in albertville). i think yuna really outdid herself this year. her performance at worlds was effortless, almost unbelievably so--i think it was mathman who said it was the closest thing to a 6.0 skate under CoP. michelle, even without an OGM, will always be one of the all-time greats. i think she's a high watermark in the development of FREE skating coupled with the arsenal of triple jumps. the legacies of great american women's champions like peggy, janet, dorothy, and kristi are all contained within her skating. and had she come of age under CoP, given her competitive spirit, i'm sure she still would have been a champion.

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I agree with both of your points.

Welcome, yoch-n. Thanks for joining us. Post often, post long! :yes:

anthologyz said:

if yuna wins another gold in sochi, i bet she'll zoom into the #1 spot for her combination of competitive nerve, technical difficulty, and artistic expression... and doing it all under the potentially soul crushing pressure of carrying a nation on her young shoulders (i mean, i still have sad memories of midori having to apologize to all of japan for her fall in albertville). i think yuna really outdid herself this year. her performance at worlds was effortless, almost unbelievably so--i think it was mathman who said it was the closest thing to a 6.0 skate under CoP. michelle, even without an OGM, will always be one of the all-time greats. i think she's a high watermark in the development of FREE skating coupled with the arsenal of triple jumps. the legacies of great american women's champions like peggy, janet, dorothy, and kristi are all contained within her skating. and had she come of age under CoP, given her competitive spirit, i'm sure she still would have been a champion.

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Agree with all you said!

pointyourtoe said:

I'll admit there were times when I was a bit jealous or bitter as Yuna rose up the ranks with her phenomenal jumping prowess and then ultimately won the 2010 Olympics. It's really petty, I know, but I felt almost threatened as a fan that Michelle's legacy was supposedly being diminished.
But then I grew up (figuratively, it happened in quite short a time span ). Everyone knows that sports are meant to progress.

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Mathman said:

...at the 2006 Olympics I was hoping that neither Irina nor Sasha would win and get ahead of Michelle in the OGM category. OK, so Shizuka won and got ahead Michelle in OGM category -- somehow, that didn't sting so much.

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What you both say has been corroborated by my observations and interactions with many (not all) Michelle ubers over the years.

Of course ya'll loooove Shizuka, for being the heroine and blocking Irina and Sasha (two big rivals of Michelle; Irina in her competitive successes, Sasha in the love of the American skating fans) from winning the OGM in 2006. And while she had great potential, Shizuka was never a rival against Michelle in terms of her overall competitive record or as "America's sweetheart."

I agree that it's petty.

prettykeys said:

What you both say has been corroborated by my observations and interactions with many (not all) Michelle ubers over the years.

Of course ya'll loooove Shizuka, for being the heroine and blocking Irina and Sasha (two big rivals of Michelle; Irina in her competitive successes, Sasha in the love of the American skating fans) from winning the OGM in 2006. And while she had great potential, Shizuka was never a rival against Michelle in terms of her overall competitive record or as "America's sweetheart."

I agree that it's petty.

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It is possible to wish more than one skater well.

I'm fairly sure I count as a Michelle uber (I've certainly tried my best). I was indeed thrilled for Shizuka to win gold, but not because she took it from Sasha or Irina. She's wonderful in her own right, and I'd been a fan of hers for quite some time by 2006.

But I was also a fan of Sasha's and it would have been very satisfying to see her finally hold it together for an international gold. And what if Irina had won? Equally cool. That was some foursome at the top of the heap for those Olympics.

As for whether Mao will rank as one of the all-time greats, I certainly hope so. She has extraordinary qualities, some of which even YuNa lacks. She'll be one of my all-time greats, that's for sure.

Well, you can only speak for yourself, Olympia.

That was my evil twin who said that. I like all skaters equally. :yes:

My issues with Sasha had more to do with her off-ice behavior than her stealing thunder from Michelle.

Mathman said:

That was my evil twin who said that. I like all skaters equally. :yes:

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Everyone has one, Mathman, even those who might say they don't. As someone who liked both Irina and Sasha (but sentimentally I was rooting a little more for Irina in 2006) it annoyed me then when it was clear there were those who rooted against them.

And obviously it makes my eyes roll that people root against YuNa for small reasons as well. It's hardly an epiphany.

Both Michelle and Yu-Na have unique strengths in skating and accomplishments that the other doesn't have, and which have been touched upon in this thread already. However, I have something to add that I think that both Michelle Kwan and Yu-Na Kim are/will be remembered not only for their accomplishments on their ice, but their accomplishments off of the ice.

Michelle is loved not only for her skating but for her incredible graciousness in defeat. Who can forget, "I like you, Tara"? I still remember her gesturing Sarah Hughes onto the podium at the 2002 Olympics. She turned Olympic disappointment into a stunning, long career filled with lovely programs and amazing performances that are still the gold standard for American ladies today. She's not only a champion skater but she's a wonderful role model for how to compete and have a long, successful career and navigate the ups and downs.

Yu-Na, aside from her individual accomplishments on the ice, she has also obviously been a trailblazer Korean figure skating, inspiring the current and all following generations to come. (I feel a bit sorry for those Korean skaters, they will find it impossible to live up to Yu-Na but at least they know that success is possible.) Yu-Na is also often cited as an inspiration by skaters from countries that do not have a strong history of figure skating; I think it's not only for her skating, but because she's proof that you can succeed as long as you deliver, even if you don't represent USA/Canada/Japan/Russia. Yu-Na has seven Grand Prix golds and not one was ever earned with the benefit and comfort of a hometown advantage, which I find truly astonishing. She sacrificed a lot, having to train abroad, far from her family and her home country, and suffered a lot of injuries, but I think every medal, including her OGM and especially her two world titles, was hard-earned, and therefore all the more valuable.

At the end of the day, while people can argue about how valuable an OGM is and how valuable a World title is and exactly how their artistry differs, both Michelle and Yu-Na are all-time greats, which is an accomplishment in itself. Michelle left behind an amazing legacy of skating and accomplishments off the ice, and Yu-Na already has an amazing legacy of her own as well--just waiting to see what she can add to it in the next year. I hope she has an ending that she's happy with.

jaylee said:

Yu-Na, aside from her individual accomplishments on the ice, she has also obviously been a trailblazer Korean figure skating, inspiring the current and all following generations to come. (I feel a bit sorry for those Korean skaters, they will find it impossible to live up to Yu-Na but at least they know that success is possible.) Yu-Na is also often cited as an inspiration by skaters from countries that do not have a strong history of figure skating; I think it's not only for her skating, but because she's proof that you can succeed as long as you deliver, even if you don't represent USA/Canada/Japan/Russia. Yu-Na has seven Grand Prix golds and not one was ever earned with the benefit and comfort of a hometown advantage, which I find truly astonishing. She sacrificed a lot, having to train abroad, far from her family and her home country, and suffered a lot of injuries, but I think every medal, including her OGM and especially her two world titles, was hard-earned, and therefore all the more valuable.

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the injury which was continued until 07-08 is resolved,
Eventually she get the title in the 2009 World Championships and crying at the awards ceremony,To me, memory of it is not lost.

Whenever she get major titles, I remember she always have perfect performance. (2009 worlds-only mistakes on last 3S in FS, 2010 olympics, 2013 worlds)
i trust i would see such drama in the 2014 Olympics...

Thanks!
All the skaters have to be applauded.
There are various types of skaters.
For example, Surya Bonaly had been jumpin' and Jumpin' and jumpin', and i like her very much! Or Katarina Witt, she had the the liquid grace, and i like her, too!

Let's get together again!!

I don't like comparing skaters. They all have their own unique strengths, weaknesses and legacy.

Sucha silly question.... Michelle Kwan will be remembered as the Greatest. Of. All. Time. She was the gold standard for so long and really pushed her peers to be more expressive on ice. I know she won't be remembered as the greatest technically, but when you look at her programs' technical layout, she could've competed against this current crop of ice divas... and probably with more consistant results. Granted, I'm never sure if this generation of skaters lack her competitive edge or if being the first real generation under CoP and it's number crunching maddness has simply sucked the life out of the sport's beauty....

Yuna is simply breathtaking to watch and I love her. But I wonder if she has captured the heart and soul of the hard core, life long fans. Will she spark heated debate 8 years after leaving the ice? Im not sure but wow... when I think about how great it would've been for her to compete through the Michelle / Irina / Sasha / Everyone Else Era I can't help but be bitter. Mainly because it's so hard to be objective when you look at her competition... it's hard to call her the best when those around her are such headcases... but time will tell.

Kwanford Wife said:

Sucha silly question.... Michelle Kwan will be remembered as the Greatest. Of. All. Time. She was the gold standard for so long and really pushed her peers to be more expressive on ice. I know she won't be remembered as the greatest technically, but when you look at her programs' technical layout, she could've competed against this current crop of ice divas... and probably with more consistant results. Granted, I'm never sure if this generation of skaters lack her competitive edge or if being the first real generation under CoP and it's number crunching maddness has simply sucked the life out of the sport's beauty....

Yuna is simply breathtaking to watch and I love her. But I wonder if she has captured the heart and soul of the hard core, life long fans. Will she spark heated debate 8 years after leaving the ice? Im not sure but wow... when I think about how great it would've been for her to compete through the Michelle / Irina / Sasha / Everyone Else Era I can't help but be bitter. Mainly because it's so hard to be objective when you look at her competition... it's hard to call her the best when those around her are such headcases... but time will tell.

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Sasha was the quintessential headcase. Out of all of Michelle's main rivals during her prime, only Irina could be considered somewhat consistent. Let's not downplay Yuna's accomplishment by disparaging her rivals. Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner and Miki Ando are all quite talented and pushed Yuna.

Michelle Kwan will be remembered as the Greatest. Of. All. Time.

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Maybe in the U.S she will be. Not anywhere else though. You cant be the greatest ever when you didnt win the Olympic Gold, the holy grail of the sport. There are other people who have dominated as much or more than her outside of the Olympics, but won the Olympics too, some people mulitple.

Kwanford Wife said:

Mainly because it's so hard to be objective when you look at her competition... it's hard to call her the best when those around her are such headcases

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Haha you are funny. Kwan only competed against one top skater her whole 10 year or so career who was consistent and that was Tara Lipinski for 15 months, and then poof Tara was gone forever. During that period where Kwan had to face consistent Tara she lost 4 of 5 meetings with her. Slutskaya from 2000-2002 and in 2005 was somewhat consistent overall, but almost never skated her best at big events, and anyway her skating is full of more holes than a huge slab of Swiss Cheese, especialy on the artistic side of things. The rest SashaSplat (yeah as if Kim would be worried about facing a skater who probably gives up 20 plus points to Kim per program on jumps alone considering the huge disparity in difficulty, quality, and consitency all), Butyrskaya who was never that good or remotedly consistent, Hughes possibly the weakest Olympic Champion in history, Suguri who like Butyrskaya was neither potentially great nor consistent, some great lineup of ladies that was, not. Kwans competition except for blip Tara couldnt even be consistent skating the much easier and less demanding 6.0 programs, so I shudder to imagine them today under COP. Comparing their main career competition:

Asada = Slutskaya (only equal since Slutskaya was more consistent, Asada does technically much harder programs and her artistry is light years superior)
Kostner > Cohen
Ando > Butyrskaya or Hughes

Krislite said:

Sasha was the quintessential headcase. Out of all of Michelle's main rivals during her prime, only Irina could be considered somewhat consistent. Let's not downplay Yuna's accomplishment by disparaging her rivals. Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner and Miki Ando are all quite talented and pushed Yuna.

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I have to disagree about Sasha's being the quintessential headcase. I used to think that too, until I saw real headcases who would skate gorgeously but couldn't get on an international podium to save their lives. Sasha actually has quite an impressive record, including an Olympic medal, a Grand Prix win, and a few World medals. To say that the competition fell down more and that's why Sasha won is begging the issue. People can only skate against the skaters who show up that day.

I think Sasha had headcase moments, but she rarely fell completely apart. Part of her problem was certain technical weaknesses (edging and so on) that robbed her of consistency and possibly of confidence. I gather from things people have said here that she also did not train consistently, which, if true, is too bad. If she had such beautiful skating as a headcase, imagine what she would have been like if she had trained like Mao or Michelle. Even the Sasha we got is a wonderful skater, with beautiful extension and positions, and I'll always love her.

pangtongfan said:

Maybe in the U.S she will be. Not anywhere else though. You cant be the greatest ever when you didnt win the Olympic Gold, the holy grail of the sport. There are other people who have dominated as much or more than her outside of the Olympics, but won the Olympics too, some people multiple.

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I wonder if, in the You Tube age, "what people remember" will be different in the future than it was in the past. At one time, the only way to remember a skater was to see her name in the almanac a lot of times. Herma Szabo won an Olympic gold medal and seven world championships (two in pairs). But she is not remembered, except by figure skating historians.

But people go on You Tube and watch performances by Janet Lynn over and over. Janet Lynn never won a Olympic or world gold medal, but no one "in the future" (now) cares much about that.

So he question of "how will a skater be remembered" is not the same as adding up how many 6.0s or CoP points someone got, or what was the strength of the competition. (Michelle did get a lot of 6.0s, though. )