How will Kwan and/or Kim be viewed in the future?

All this hullabaloo about how Kwan and Kim will be seen in the future.

Both in their respective countries will be seen as the greatest for a long while yet. Even that, however, is within our own little insular figure skating enthusiast community. As much as Kwan is my favorite skater of all time and I would like to imagine how much the rest of the US loves her, most people in this country don't really care. Most people here couldn't name a single figure skater. The best effort at unassisted recall that I ever got was an unsure "Nancy Kerrigan?" from a 55 year old gentleman.

The average American only cares during the Olympics, and skating has been dying a slow death here for years.

Michelle's peak of fame for most Americans was 98-02. In the late 90's she had good ratings for some of her tv specials (for skating show standards), made the cover of magazines, appeared on a bunch of late night talk shows and tv shows, had a best-selling biography out, a wax statue at madame tussaud's and even a videogame, lol. I remember one of Michelle's Disney specials got 10 million viewers, while the ratings for US nationals a few months ago was only a small fraction of that (of course tv viewership in general has gone down).

Speaking of, I just recently rewatched an old "Friends" episode with a Michelle mention...the character Ross said he brought a banner for her to an ice show

(edited to add)
This is a low quality link someone posted online of michelle's hall of fame induction video that shows some of the mentions of Michelle in mainstream American pop culture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EN_51gIreao
sigh, my childhood

I think Michelle was actually a household name when she was competing, not just in this insular figure skating enthusiast community -- at least in North America. She was one of the most well-recognized North American athletes, to be sure, and I think a mere mention of her name still brings people back to figure skating. As for Yuna Kim, we all know by this point there isn't practically a single Korean who doesn't know her name regardless of their interest in figure skating as a sport. That won't change for several decades to come, I bet, even if by some miracle Korea gets another Yuna in their hands -- which I think is honestly unlikely. The US has had several great skaters and potential big stars since Michelle Kwan, but no single dominant skater like her for some time, and Yuna may just be one of the kind. If nothing else, she was the very first world-class figure skater the country ever had, and that will go down a historical event all by itself, but then even among the top world-class skaters she's something different altogether. Her act would be impossible to emulate even if Korea gets another OGM contender in the future.

Mathman said:

So he question of "how will a skater be remembered" is not the same as adding up how many 6.0s or CoP points someone got, or what was the strength of the competition. (Michelle did get a lot of 6.0s, though. )

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Doesn't Michele hold the records for 6.0's in total, as well as at a single event?

Yes, the thread is about how the skater will be remembered - NOT about who's the greatest!!!! It's also impossible to compare a 6.0 with COP as the training methods change. Also, you can't compare a Heiss vs Fleming vs Hamill vs Yamaguchi vs Kwan etc 100% at a technical level. Different eras!

Mathman said:

I wonder if, in the You Tube age, "what people remember" will be different in the future than it was in the past. At one time, the only way to remember a skater was to see her name in the almanac a lot of times. Herma Szabo won an Olympic gold medal and seven world championships (two in pairs). But she is not remembered, except by figure skating historians.

But people go on You Tube and watch performances by Janet Lynn over and over. Janet Lynn never won a Olympic or world gold medal, but no one "in the future" (now) cares much about that.

So he question of "how will a skater be remembered" is not the same as adding up how many 6.0s or CoP points someone got, or what was the strength of the competition. (Michelle did get a lot of 6.0s, though. )

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Agreed, Math. When people look up skating from the past, they don't (except to prove arguments) look up old lists of scores, or even lists of medals. They look up skating performances. That's why people spend time watching (often again and again) Janet Lynn's programs, or Torvill and Dean's (who happen to have won lots of medals, but it's not the pictures of the medals we look up), rather than Beatrix Schuba's. One's personal list of favorites may be subjective and may depend on country as well as individual preference, but in general, the appeal of a skater lies in his or her skating. The appeal of a great skater lies in his or her skating. The appeal of an immortal skater lies in his or her skating.

heyang said:

Doesn't Michelle hold the records for 6.0's in total, as well as at a single event?

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Counting nationals, I think so. I am pretty sure Alexei Yagudin has the most in international competition.

Mathman said:

Counting nationals, I think so. I am pretty sure Alexei Yagudin has the most in international competition.

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As a single skater, yes, but obviously T/D are the record holders for the highest number of 6s internationally...

pangtongfan said:

Asada = Slutskaya (only equal since Slutskaya was more consistent, Asada does technically much harder programs and her artistry is light years superior)
Kostner > Cohen
Ando > Butyrskaya or Hughes

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Michelle competed against Kostner and Ando. Kostner snuck in ahead of her in 2005 when Michelle was injured and held back by questionable scoring on the short program. Michelle finished ahead of Ando in 2004. I think Slute as a competitor (and with the Russian federation behind her all the way) was far superior to Asada. It isn't always the skills per se that make a winner. Michelle in her time competed against three Olympic gold medalists, Lipinski, Arakawa and Hughes and more than held her own. And there was also Sasha Cohen who was always one fall away from beating her. And Lu Chen, we can't forget her in 1996. Michelle never had an easy time of it. Look at her scores for her flawless long program at 2000 Worlds. The gold medal was there for either Slute or Bute's taking. Michelle had to be perfect to beat them and even them and even then, either one could have won.

pangtongfan said:

Maybe in the U.S she will be. Not anywhere else though. You cant be the greatest ever when you didnt win the Olympic Gold, the holy grail of the sport.

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I think Kurt Browning is a strong candidate for the greatest men's skater ever, whether or not someone is Canadian.

jenaj said:

Michelle competed against Kostner and Ando. Kostner snuck in ahead of her in 2005 when Michelle was injured and held back by questionable scoring on the short program.

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It was Kostner who was grossly underscored in the SP. She skated a beautiful short program with a triple-triple and should have won the short clearly, yet due to being a young skater with no name was placed 4th. Kostner was nowhere close to her prime in 2005, nor was Michelle. Kwan was only underscored in the SP compared to Slutskaya who did a sloppy performance and was still gifted 1st, but as Irina was clearly winning that event overall anyway it is moot. Ando was also nowhere near her prime around then. Pointless to even bring up, unless you want to note Kostner probably even more out of her prime than Kwan managed to win their only COP meeting at Worlds, which I doubt was your intent.

I also didnt say Kostner and Ando were better than Kwan, I said they were better skaters than anyone Kwan faced on a "regular" basis outside of Slutskaya. Ando is considered one of the top 5 jumpers in history, and Kostner is an outstanding all around skater with some of the best skating skills ever seen, although inconsistent. Ando is a 2 time World Champion and Kostner is a many time World medalist and former World Champion as well. Both competed at the top level Kim's whole career, and were competitive virtually the whole time.

I think Slute as a competitor (and with the Russian federation behind her all the way) was far superior to Asada.

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Yes Slutskaya is so far superior to Asada that during the 15 month period that most regard her best ever skating she handily lost to a 15 year old Asada at the GP final. An underaged senior Asada laid waste to Kwan's "rivals" you refer to, going 6-1 vs Arakawa, Slutskaya, and Cohen combined for the season, and her ghost laid over all of them at the Turin Olympics as the winner was always a bit asterixed by Asada's absence. Yet weeks after easily beating Slutskaya to win the GP final she proceeded to Junior Worlds to be crushed by an also 15 year old Yu Na Kim, who also could have picked up another Oly Gold had it not been for the stupid age rules which didnt exist in Kwan's time (and without which someone like Tara Lipinski would have never been heard of probably as her hips were already bust at 15).

Michelle in her time competed against three Olympic gold medalists, Lipinski, Arakawa and Hughes

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Michelle was on the way out as late blooming Shizuka was on her way in. They were basically rivals at one event, the 2004 Worlds. The rest of their careers Shizuka didnt even coexist in Kwan's World. Tara was a 15 month phenom like I mentioned, and during that blip she almost always beat Kwan. As for Hughes, like I said many regard her as the worst Olympic Champion in history, it is a toss up between her and Annett Poetzsch. She is not revered as some great skater just because she won the Olympics, that is for sure.

And there was also Sasha Cohen who was always one fall away from beating her.

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Sasha couldnt even win a World or Olympic Gold when Kwan was no longer a serious factor. Lots of hype which amounted to nothing. As I said she isnt someone Kim would be remotedly worried about facing when Kim would put 20 points (or more) on her per competition on jumps alone.

And Lu Chen, we can't forget her in 1996.

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So like Shizuka she was a one event rival.

jenaj said:

Kostner snuck in ahead of her in 2005 when Michelle was injured and held back by questionable scoring on the short program.

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That's ridiculous.
Here's Kostner's SP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mHrWWWdp-g

Here's Michelle's SP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omqE0fv6VCk

Frankly, aging Kwan should not even come close to Kostner's in PCS. Skating skill should be 1.5 points behind. Look at Kostner's ice coverage vs Michelle's. Choreography isn't as good. P/E is better. Everything else is a wash.

Kostner was vastly undermarked here. She should approach 70, not barely crack 60.
Look at the 3F-3T combo. Look at the 3Loop.

FlattFan said:

That's ridiculous.
Here's Kostner's SP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mHrWWWdp-g

Here's Michelle's SP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omqE0fv6VCk

Frankly, aging Kwan should not even come close to Kostner's in PCS. Skating skill should be 1.5 points behind. Look at Kostner's ice coverage vs Michelle's. Choreography isn't as good. P/E is better. Everything else is a wash.

Kostner was vastly undermarked here. She should approach 70, not barely crack 60.
Look at the 3F-3T combo. Look at the 3Loop.

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The SP scoring at those Worlds was one of the worst ever. Slutskaya had 2 major mistakes on 2 of her strongest elements and still won the short over clean Cohen, clean Kwan, and clean Kostner with a 3-3 combo (Slutskaya never tried 3-3s in the short of course). Thankfully for her she won the LP and title with a spectacular performance which made people forget about the short program. Rochette performed brilliantly and was dumped in 10th, when she possibly should have been top 3. Sokolova was mediocre with a two footed jump and sluggish performance and was marked above Ando who skated clean with a super hard 3-3.

Kostner definitely should have won the SP at that years Worlds hands down, not been in 4th in that phase. Kwan that year getting higher SS points than Kostner (which she did) is just a major ROTFL as well.

Awesome duo-but just point me to Kim's masterpiece (may yet come) to equal Lyra. She is the great jumper but she didn't move people. I liked her Les Miz. Somehow there are dozens of Kwan skates-many- so much a gift. Kim is good but Kwan is great. Why? Her artistry/purity/joyous journey. We loved her offerings ro us-she connected us. Humongous jumps don't make for better programs. If so the thread would include yuna, ito and tonya harding-who is tech queen. I say Ito or yuna.

Yuna does move a lot of people, give it up.

Moment said:

Yuna does move a lot of people, give it up.

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And so does Michelle. Don't really know why you feel like either of us have to give anything up.

aftertherain said:

And so does Michelle. Don't really know why you feel like either of us have to give anything up.

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Did I say she didn't? I was replying to skateluvr's desperate try to discredit Yuna by reducing her as just a "great jumper" which is a load of crap.

skateluvr said:

Awesome duo-but just point me to Kim's masterpiece (may yet come) to equal Lyra. She is the great jumper but she didn't move people. I liked her Les Miz. Somehow there are dozens of Kwan skates-many- so much a gift. Kim is good but Kwan is great. Why? Her artistry/purity/joyous journey. We loved her offerings ro us-she connected us. Humongous jumps don't make for better programs. If so the thread would include yuna, ito and tonya harding-who is tech queen. I say Ito or yuna.

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What a presumptuous thing to say on behalf of all the people who watched Yuna's Olympic programs.

skateluvr said:

Awesome duo-but just point me to Kim's masterpiece (may yet come) to equal Lyra. She is the great jumper but she didn't move people. I liked her Les Miz. Somehow there are dozens of Kwan skates-many- so much a gift. Kim is good but Kwan is great. Why? Her artistry/purity/joyous journey. We loved her offerings ro us-she connected us. Humongous jumps don't make for better programs. If so the thread would include yuna, ito and tonya harding-who is tech queen. I say Ito or yuna.

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Don't be ridiculous. So, you think those who gave huge standing ovation to her at Worlds were not really moved by her?

British Eurosport commentator (Chris?) said, "I've never seen a better. I have lump in my throat." He almost cried.

BBC female caster asked Cousins "Have you ever seen anything more spectacular than this?"

Lots of people were moved or impressed by her at this Worlds. And, also in 2009 Worlds, 2010 Olympics, 2007 Worlds.

skateluvr said:

Awesome duo-but just point me to Kim's masterpiece (may yet come) to equal Lyra. She is the great jumper but she didn't move people. I liked her Les Miz. Somehow there are dozens of Kwan skates-many- so much a gift. Kim is good but Kwan is great. Why? Her artistry/purity/joyous journey. We loved her offerings ro us-she connected us. Humongous jumps don't make for better programs. If so the thread would include yuna, ito and tonya harding-who is tech queen. I say Ito or yuna.

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I have to disagree. Kim is great, and even immortal, by almost any measuring stick available. She doesn't move everyone, but she moves a good part of the world. She certainly took my breath away in Vancouver. One problem with being that steady and consistent is that people start thinking you're having an easy time of it, and what she's done can't possibly have been easy for her. She is certainly far more than a jumping machine. In fact, both she and Mao Asada are extraordinarily graceful for jumpers of such quality. We tend to expect good jumpers to be sturdy, forceful ladies like Slutskaya and Midori Ito, not fragile sylphs, but Kim and Asada disprove this assumption. Both are musical, complete skaters.

I doubt that anyone will top Kwan on my Forever List of ladies' skaters, a totally subjective tally. But Kim is on that list, and there are ways that she should be on the list of every skating fan. There's nothing lukewarm about what she's brought to skating, as her amazing return to the top amply shows.

As for her being a household word, I doubt anyone in the next fifty years will equal her impact in Korea. She's literally a rock star (well, pop), a top model, and a champion athlete all rolled into one. Who could top that? To begin with, Korea is unlikely to have another skater like her for a good long time to come. So the next pop star-international beauty will fall far behind.

The final point in how amazing Kim is is that even if she came from a traditional skating power, she'd be an astonishing skater. The fact that she comes from Korea, which never before had anyone--anyone!--who was a true contender for an international title is almost unimaginable. You wouldn't have believed it as the plot for a book or a movie, or one of the Korean soap operas.

Moment said:

Yuna does move a lot of people, give it up.

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I think you should have said "Yuna does not move ME", a very acceptable declaration. However to claim she doesn't move a "lot of people" is presumptuous and depends on what "a lot" means.