How will Kwan and/or Kim be viewed in the future?

I love the new direction of the debate! When Kwan ubers should be more aptly debating between themselves, they like to rebut the rebuttals of the YuNa fans. For example:

Olympia said:

To say that the competition fell down more and that's why Sasha won is begging the issue. People can only skate against the skaters who show up that day.

Click to expand...

Maybe you should be telling Kwanford Wife this, when she calls YuNa's competitors "such headcases"!

skateluvr said:

[YuNa] is the great jumper but she didn't move people.

Click to expand...

aftertherain said:

And so does Michelle. Don't really know why you feel like either of us have to give anything up.

Click to expand...

Don't know why you feel like replying to Moment when he was only protesting skateluvr's sweeping generalization!

Meanwhile, a YuNa fan is arguing with a YuNa fan (jatale against Moment), because...??? LOL

jatale said:

I think you should have said "Yuna does not move ME", a very acceptable declaration. However to claim she doesn't move a "lot of people" is presumptuous and depends on what "a lot" means.

Click to expand...

---------------------------------------

jenaj said:

Michelle competed against Kostner and Ando. Kostner snuck in ahead of her in 2005 when Michelle was injured and held back by questionable scoring on the short program. Michelle finished ahead of Ando in 2004.

Click to expand...

Yesss. Sneaky sneaking Kostner slipping past Kwan to land on the podium in 2005. I agree with pangtongfan in that it was actually Kostner who was undermarked in the SP, so to say that Kwan was "held back", well, Kostner was "held back" even more. And Kim finished ahead of Ando how many times?

jenaj said:

I think Slute as a competitor (and with the Russian federation behind her all the way) was far superior to Asada. It isn't always the skills per se that make a winner.

Click to expand...

Slutskaya was a great competitor, for sure. And Cohen was, at the least, an incredible Short Program skater. Kwan was very clutch in that she could pull out perfect (or at least clean) performances when she really, really needed them to win. You cited versus Lu Chen in 1996 as an example - I agree. Countless US Nationals aside, she also pulled out a clean 1998 Olympics only to be bested by an also-clean, but technically more difficult Lipinski. (I agree with pangtongfan in that Lipinski was the steeliest competitor.)

jenaj said:

Michelle in her time competed against three Olympic gold medalists, Lipinski, Arakawa and Hughes and more than held her own.

Click to expand...

I disagree with this reasoning completely. First of all, Kwan did not compete against them while they were Olympic gold medalists. All of those won their Olympic golds while Kwan was still competing (or in the case of Arakawa, not officially retired.) That means that Kwan gave up her chance at gold to them and it actually weakens her record.

It's as if somehow Kim's accomplishments would be made to sound stronger had she won Silver in Vancouver and Asada had won Gold. "But like, Kim competed against Olympic gold medalist Asada!" - no, it doesn't work like that.

In fact, the 2006 Olympic ladies podium composed of Kwan's rivals Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya, was one of the most underwhelming ladies' Olympics competitions of the modern age. The field was skating much stronger in 2010, where Kim won.

jatale said:

I think you should have said "Yuna does not move ME", a very acceptable declaration. However to claim she doesn't move a "lot of people" is presumptuous and depends on what "a lot" means.

Click to expand...

I think you misread my post.

Olympia said:

I have to disagree about Sasha's being the quintessential headcase.

Click to expand...

I actually agree with that. Considering her poor jump technique she was actually quite consistent. IMO the reason she had 1-3 mistakes every competition is her flawed jump technique which made it unlikely to skate clean competitions with 8 or 9 triples over 2 programs all landed without a major mistake.

To say that the competition fell down more and that's why Sasha won is begging the issue.

Click to expand...

What exactly has Sasha won. Her biggest titles are a Grand Prix final title, which has the asterix of Michelle Kwan's absence when she never beat Kwan up to that point, although she did beat Slutskaya who had won the last 3 Grand Prix finals so I might give her the benefit of doubt on that one; and a U.S National title which has the huge asterix of missing Kwan when she had lost to Kwan at 5 straight Nationals (would be 6 without her WD in 2001). No Olympic or World titles and 1 Kwanless U.S title basically. As for her collection of silver and bronze medals, she didnt always win that since others fell more, she did since her other qualities like her great spins, spirals, and beautiful positions and lines negated her mistakes and allowed her to beat tons of women who skated cleaner. However her overall jump deficit was always going to be too much against skaters who had the combined caliber of technical and artistic skating of Kwan, Kim, Asada, Slutskaya, and even Arakawa on one of her sparatic good days.

(Arakawa might have had only sporadic good days, but she sure did manage to time her peaks!)

I probably used the word "win" loosely. Most people assume that this means "came in first." I mean won a medal. Sorry for the lack of clarity. Sasha has made the national and (more important) world podium enough times and with enough consistency to render the term "headcase" a bit inaccurate for her. I agree, PTFan, that often what upped her score was elements such as her spins, spirals, and positions. I often wonder what she would have been like as a skater with the blade skills of Yuka Sato or Michelle Kwan.

Olympia said:

(Arakawa might have had only sporadic good days, but she sure did manage to time her peaks!)

I probably used the word "win" loosely. Most people assume that this means "came in first." I mean won a medal. Sorry for the lack of clarity. Sasha has made the national and (more important) world podium enough times and with enough consistency to render the term "headcase" a bit inaccurate for her. I agree, PTFan, that often what upped her score was elements such as her spins, spirals, and positions. I often wonder what she would have been like as a skater with the blade skills of Yuka Sato or Michelle Kwan.

Click to expand...

If the vastly improved blade skills not only made a difference in her basic skating, speed, and power, but drastically improved her subpar (for the very top level) jumping than nearly unbeatable I would say. The only things Sasha lacked in her peak years from 2004-2006 were stronger jumps and stronger basic skating, but unfortunately for her those are two most important things in the sport. It is like having a cheeseburger that only lacks the bun and meat, but has all the other ingredients.

I agree with you Olympia that Sasha wasn't usually a headcase. I have always felt her biggest problem was actually her stamina. Which is why she usually had amazing short programs. And besides her Turino FS (where she really was a headcase), she usually did pretty well during the first few jumping passes of her FS and would mess up during the later parts of the FS. I think she was too focused on having a beautiful line and figure to really focus on her stamina. I saw a recent interview Sasha did a year or two ago where she said that when she was competing, she would eat an egg white omelet for breakfast, half an apple and five almonds (yes, she said exactly FIVE) for a snack, grilled chicken and salad for lunch, and fish and steamed vegetables for dinner. I'm not a nutritionist, but that hardly seems like enough calories for an elite figure skater. I eat more than that just to keep up my energy to work full time at the office with no hard physical exercise. I read somewhere that Yuna maintains her stamina by routinely doing 60 laps around the ice during practices. I doubt Sasha would have been able to do that kind of practice with her calorie intake.

Personally, I don't like these questions because they
1 . Belittle the accomplishments of both skaters?
2. Their fans get to riled up defending the skater pro/con
3.. Different skaters different juding, different competition.
Both & all skaters will be remember fondly for
their accomplishments both on/off ice. Pro &con withstanding.

It depends on individual who like more
Michelle or Yuna. Or the other skaters more.

Sasha usually did start strong and make mistakes late in the program, so maybe stamina was an issue. Then again not always. In SLC she missed the first jump she tried, granted that was a super difficult and risky triple lutz-triple toe combo. At the 2003 Worlds she made silly early mistakes and falls in both the SP and LP. Then of course the 2006 Olympic LP.

prettykeys said:

I

In fact, the 2006 Olympic ladies podium composed of Kwan's rivals Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya, was one of the most underwhelming ladies' Olympics competitions of the modern age. The field was skating much stronger in 2010, where Kim won.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree here, in two respects. First, the field in 2010 was not that strong, except for Mao and Yu Na. And no one really expected Mao to challenge Yu Na in Vancouver. Mao finished off the podium at 2009 Worlds and had clearly fallen behind Yu Na in the season leading up to the Olympics. As for 2006, the fact that the Olympic performances were somewhat weak that year doesn't change the fact that that was a pretty strong field. Irina had gone nearly undefeated for a year before Torino (losing only to at 15 year old Mao at the GPF!) and Sasha was always a threat for the podium and for gold if, by some miracle, she could skate clean. Shizuka had the 3-3's, which the others really didn't. She was a wild card, who could always come up on top if circumstances were right. As far as Michelle's competition is concerned, her record at US Nationals shouldn't be overlooked. The American competition was often as good as the international competition, with Cohen, Hughes, Lipinski and even some upstarts like Naomi Nari Nam. Yet she managed to win 9 titles, including 8 in a row from 1998-2005.

LOL at even mentioning Naomi Nari Nam as a tough opponent to face for any champion calibre skater. Are you going to argue she would be tough competition for Yu Na Kim too. Naomi Nari Nam in a nuthsell, in her one year of somewhat good skating- an overhyped 13 year old who wouldnt have even placed top 10 at Worlds that same year, and only came 2nd at Nationals due to a super weak field where someone like Erin Pearl (who) was in the top 5; albeit a skater who at that point showed potential for the future considering her ability for her very young age, but then fizzled out and within a year dropped off the radar entirely, until she later began a respectable mostly National level pairs career which far eclipsed her singles career. Hughes was not tough competition for Kwan, Kwan could only lose to her if she pushed a giant self destruct button (and even then sometimes not); and had she been skating today wouldnt have even been competing against Kim with the opportunity to lose by 50+ points since she would have only about 2 ratified triples per program under COP and be unable to even make it out of the U.S to international events. Only Cohen in 2004-2005 (dont even mention before 2004 when she hadnt won a World medal yet and had been nowhere remotedly close to beating Kwan before) and Lipinski in 1997-1998 were somewhat tough competition for Kwan.

Just for the sake of argument in a crazy hypothetical that puts things into perspective the age rules been like today and the 2006-2015 Kim have entered U.S Nationals each year from 1996-2005 would she have matched or exceeded Kwan's 9 U.S titles (10 were possible)? Who knows, but she would most likely have won anywhere between 7-10. Basically looking at the caliber of skating Kim even with mistakes would have been certain to win 96, 98, 99, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, but could have lost if she had an off enough day (probably atleast 2 falls required still) in any of 97, 2002, or 2004. Other than Lipinski, Kwan's toughest opponent by far was Slutskaya, no other American comes close. I dont want to take anything away from Kwan's 9 US title as it was still an astonishing feat, but it is not something other dominant skaters couldnt have managed as well. The only World beater the U.S produced besides Kwan that whole period was Lipinski, neither Hughes or Cohen were ever that or would have been even without Kwan (remove Kwan and the only major title either ever wins is still Hughes's shock 2002 Oly Gold, or does she even win that if Kwan doesnt exist, perhaps not). Cohen only became competitive with an aging and fading, injured, and past her physical prime Kwan in 2004 and 2005, but was no threat to her before that, not even a minor one. Other than the 2000 U.S Nationals SP which Cohen won after Kwan fell on a simple triple toe, Kwan never lost more than 1 ordinal out of 9 judges to Cohen in a single program before a 03-04 season cheesefest. She was less of competition for Kwan up to that point than say Fumie Suguri.

It is not true at all the Vancouver field was considered weak. The last 3 World Champions were all there and going very strong, and the previous years World Silver medalist who had just posted a 140+ LP at Canadians was there on home ice, and a former multi World medalist and European Champion was there albeit struggling that season, and also some very talented up and coming skaters like Nagasu, Lepisto, Suzuki, rounding out the second tier contenders behind the big guns. The fact Kim was so overwhelmingly favored was simply due to how strong she had been in the 2 years leading into Vancouver. Had Shizuka and Sasha been her competition instead you had better believe Kim also would have been the overwhelming favorite. Asada would have been favored to win the Turino gold had she been able to skate, yet 4 years later she was the heavy underdog to Kim. Even if you insist on believing the field was weak going in though, it certainly didnt turn out that way. Nearly everyone has said the Vancouver Olympics was by far the best Olympic ladies event ever, and yet Kim won it by 23 points. Nagasu did performances that would have medalled at any other Olympics, arguably even on gold at any other Olympics, yet barely finished a very distant 4th, nowhere near the 3 medalists.

pangtongfan said:

Nearly everyone has said the Vancouver Olympics was by far the best Olympic ladies event ever, and yet Kim won it by 23 points. Nagasu did performances that would have medalled at any other Olympics, arguably even on gold at any other Olympics, yet barely finished a very distant 4th, nowhere near the 3 medalists.

Click to expand...

Nagasu would be buried in the SP, so no chance of gold in 1998, 2002. In 2006, her SP probably would get her sub 60, much less than Fumie's.

Her LP, without any 3x3, would not have won 1998 LP. Maybe 2002 LP. Definitely not 2006.

So with a so so SP, her best chance would have been 2002, but then again, she wouldn't have beat Hughes under the old system.

Can't see her winning gold at any other Olympics. Bronze, yes.

I think she would have definitely beaten Hughes even under 6.0. Slutskaya with one of her worst ever performances (even worse than her Turin LP really) was .1 from beating her. The judges didnt like Hughes that much and Nagasu skating her best is a better skater in virtually everyway- spins, spirals, jumps, posture, line, musicality. Not placing high in the SP wouldnt have mattered either since Hughes herself didnt. She would have had to only be in the top 6 to beat Hughes (who was only 4th) and she would have easily managed that.

1998 she would have won under COP but under 6.0 won only bronze.

2006 probably silver under both systems.