Wagner's Olympic Strategy: Play It Safe? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Wagner's Olympic Strategy: Play It Safe?

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Okay something of relevance. Phil Hersh posted the following:

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rjpgtp



So many questions....what exactly did Ashley do for the Olympic programs that made Mills unhappy? Who is going to choreograph her programs now? Will she stick to only Mr. Nicks or get another coach to assist?

It sounds like Mills fired Ashley.

I think it's a shame. Mills really choreographed some unique programs for Ashley that she sold very well. Complex choreography and good transitions. I think he played a large role in her rise these past few seasons, and it's a huge setback for Ashley. I don't know what Ashley did, but at WTT, her performance was definitely a watered down version of what she did earlier in the season. There's bits of choreography and transitions throughout that are gone. I don't think it's a big deal since this is a post-season fluff competition, but maybe Mills was irritated that she did that, since he was there (and she probably didn't regret it).

I think that getting the right choreographer next season will be extremely critical for Ashley. As for the technical content, a lot of this talk reminds of the pressure that was on Michelle Kwan to up her content in the 2001-2002 season. Everyone complained if she didn't attempt the 3/3; and they complained that she never attempted two of them. Well, 2001 Skate Canada, they got their wish. Michelle upped her attempted content. It was a disaster.

I think Ashley attempts the most difficult content that she can handle given the pressure of competition, her complex choreography and transitions. I am doubtful that introducing the 3/3 in the SP early in the season or later in the season would matter much. She is just not as proficient with a backend 3T as others are. After all, as a junior, she attempted the 3F/3Lo jump.
 

pointyourtoe

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Michelle overdid it though. You can take baby steps
Michelle suddenly went from an every-so-often 3t-3t to suddenly attempting TWO 3-3's including a 3lz-3lo, one of the hardest jump combinations ever. She claims in one article to have trained the 3lz-3t and Peggy also said at one point that she was doing the 3s-3lo, I have no idea why she suddenly decided to go for something as insane as a 3lz-3lo.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Can't really read minds here. All we have is a vanilla statement saying they've "parted ways". The only thing to go on is that apparently they had differing views on the Olympic program.

Actually I hope this means we'll see the old Wagner again- the Wagner who held nothing back and went for everything, win or lose. Since she went to Nicks/Mills there has been a sense of caution about her. She is not MK and trying to make her into one is pointless IMHO.

But above all, program layout is critical, especially jump placement. If she wants all the points she can get...
 

ForeverFish

Medalist
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Well, at least Ashley's already looking towards her Olympic programs. I hope that Gracie's doing the same.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I'm pretty sure, again, Ashley was referring to Kaitlyn, not Andrew in that tweet because it was her birthday, not Andrew's (his is in February). People say stuff like "the love of my life" in a less romantic way too. I'm pretty sure Ashley became good friends with Weaver/Poje after skating with them at Stars on Ice in Canada last year.

So I think we need to stop using that as a factor in our discussions unless we get proof, (ala Gracie Gold's cupcakes to Max Aaron) that she is dating someone.

Agree with Mrs. P absolutely 100% here. Wagner's tweet clearly referred to Weaver. An earlier anecdote indicative of their friendship: when Wagner's luggage went astray en route to London Worlds, Weaver was among those who came to the rescue and lent clothes to her.

And from social media, it is apparent that Wagner has many friends -- female and male -- among skaters, and is not shy about frequently expressing/showing her love and affection for them.
We have to assume that she means platonic love in all cases, unless proven otherwise.

Random examples:
Radford tweeted a cute photo from WTT of a peck on the cheek he received from Wagner.
In the past, she has tweeted references to her "love" for Rippon and for Abbott, and prob. for others.
Etc., etc.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Sep 14, 2008
Country
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One reason why so many programs suck - outdated choreographers thinking everything they do is untouchable, when CoP is about making every moment count:

I believe that each choreographer’s program is a work of art that needs to be kept in its original form. I wouldn’t want anyone to change my art and I just would not make changes to someone else’s work.

Thankfully for Ashley, and me, she made a better decision about the Olympic season. ^_^
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
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Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I had no idea that Mills was such a diva. Skaters have to PERFORM choreography as best they can, in the moment. A sudden balance check, and changes will happen. Now that he's publicly reprimanded Wagner, he may find it hard to get new business....
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Skaters have to PERFORM choreography as best they can, in the moment. A sudden balance check, and changes will happen.

I agree with this. Unlike a dance recital, a successful figure skating program requires more than just great choreography. If a skater is too exhausted to complete technical elements at the end of a program, then the choreography should be changed.
 

Trewyn

Medalist
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Wow! *SHOCKED* at the Mills/Wagner split... Especially the timing of it! She's on her way to Stars on Ice, right? I didn't think she was already that far into the process of creating her Olympic programs, since the season was still in full swing (Worlds, WTT).
Mills has done incredible work for Wagner with Pollock, Black Swan and Samson & Delilah. As for her Olympic programs, I have thought about whether or not Ashley needed a 'bigger name' choreographer. But then I thought about all the good Mills has done for Ashley and it'd be sad to dump him after all that. But if *he* dumps *her*... That's weird. I really wonder what's going on there.
I can imagine they're divas, both of them, so maybe 'artistic differences' aren't that farfetched.

I just wonder where this leaves John Nicks... Anyone know whether he's officially retired now? Is Ashley looking for a new choreographer *as well* as a new coach? Because as I understood it, Mills was going to become Ashley's fulltime coach in case Nicks retired (so it's not just a choreographer/skater split, it's a coaching split as well). I really hope John Nicks will take Ashley to the Olympics... I truly think he's good for her. Keeps her focused.

I hope Ashley won't return to Irina for choreo. I never liked Spartacus or Polovetsian Dances that much :(

Off-season drama has begun...

ETA: random thought - maybe it was thing with the hair that Mills was unhappy about in Ashley's LP at WTT :p

ETA 2: Thinking more about what Mills said about "his art" etc. I don't think he'd be a good coach, if he watches a skater and only cares about 'his piece of art' being performed 'the way he intended it', that's not a good basis for coaching. He's definitely a clever choreographer, though, and I have tremendous respect for that.
 

dorispulaski

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United-States
Do you think they deserved the Bronze at that Worlds? I feel it's definitely their best FD ever (discounting the tech).

I was always OK with them getting the bronze, despite being 4th in the FD. However,after I saw the movie, I would probably have given them3rd in the FD over the hot mess that was Delobel & Schoenfelder's "Untouchables" program with the fake gun hands (of course, I have a definite prejudice against fake gun hands, so that is perhaps not wholly fair ;) ).

In fact, if I were on the tech panel, I would not have given Dubreuil & Lauzon level 4 in the twizzles, given that Patrice hopped through them in his less favored direction, and I would also give them lower PCS than they received from the judges, so they and B&A would be about even for me in that dance.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
I think she's been doing a 3Lo+2A sequence this year, so what about a 3T+3S sequence like Sasha used to do?

And what's the difference between a 3T+2A sequence and 3T/Lo/2A anyway?

3T+3S is no longer a sequence as the 1Lo (1/2 loop) is used to connect the two. The 1/2 loop is a tricky beast to land fully backwards (go look at the JGP events - there were 3 or 4 ladies who got a 1Lo << in their 3 jump, or watch earlier incarnations of Gold's FS with the 3F+1Lo+3S where the 3S was messy) and being able to do a 3S after it is even trickier in that the tendency is to start opening up the checking arm after the 1/2 loop and it needs to stay FIRMLY checked for even a single Sal to be successful. There is no such thing as a 3T+Lo+2A. It would either be 3T (step forward)+2A (Sequence) or 3T (tap toe)+2A (Sequence)
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I'm pretty sure, again, Ashley was referring to Kaitlyn, not Andrew in that tweet because it was her birthday, not Andrew's (his is in February). People say stuff like "the love of my life" in a less romantic way too. I'm pretty sure Ashley became good friends with Weaver/Poje after skating with them at Stars on Ice in Canada last year.

So I think we need to stop using that as a factor in our discussions unless we get proof, (ala Gracie Gold's cupcakes to Max Aaron) that she is dating someone.

Oh no so sorry for my misunderstanding; I guess I read some other posts too. Isn't Gracie a bit young for Aaron and really cupcakes - is she trying to sink the American team lol.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
3T+3S is no longer a sequence as the 1Lo (1/2 loop) is used to connect the two. The 1/2 loop is a tricky beast to land fully backwards (go look at the JGP events - there were 3 or 4 ladies who got a 1Lo << in their 3 jump, or watch earlier incarnations of Gold's FS with the 3F+1Lo+3S where the 3S was messy) and being able to do a 3S after it is even trickier in that the tendency is to start opening up the checking arm after the 1/2 loop and it needs to stay FIRMLY checked for even a single Sal to be successful.

For me, the person who did this combo best was Surya Bonaly. One great example was the 1994 Olympics.
 

NYscorp6

On the Ice
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Oct 23, 2005
Country
United-States
I don't think Ashley should play it safe at all. Also, perhaps a new choreographer will be the best thing for her. It just might get her out of the comfort zone she appears to be in. That being said it all depends on what happens with Mr. Nicks and his coaching one more Olympic games.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I just wonder where this leaves John Nicks... Anyone know whether he's officially retired now? Is Ashley looking for a new choreographer *as well* as a new coach? Because as I understood it, Mills was going to become Ashley's fulltime coach in case Nicks retired (so it's not just a choreographer/skater split, it's a coaching split as well). I really hope John Nicks will take Ashley to the Olympics... I truly think he's good for her. Keeps her focused.

Good question. It's too soon to tell what may happen but if Nicks does retire, sounds like Wagner will have to look for another coach, which could mean another big move. Not really the thing she'd want at this point IMO.

"Playing it safe" aside, Nicks has been great for her. He got her from 6th in the US to top 5 in the world. Granted, he hasn't gotten her onto the podium yet but each small step is very important. Last-minute change didn't pan out for MK so hopefully Team Wagner will be able to work things out. If she has to go back to her old coach, it may be a step back for her in the long run.
 

Trewyn

Medalist
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Looking up articles about Nicks possible retirement, it looks like on the one side Ashley seemed pretty convinced he was going to stay on and he was just spreading the rumour to keep her on her toes, on the other side with Philip Mills being involved in her coaching from day one, it would seem it really was planned that Nicks was going to retire eventually, possibly even before the Olympics.

I hope we won't have to wait until October until we know the deal.

Yes, Nicks hasn't gotten her onto the podium yet, but he's gotten her to be a medal contender. Multiple GP wins, 4 continents win, LP bronze in Nice... That's the whole point of this thread, I think, she's close but it looks like she needs just that little bit extra something (technical content?) to close the remaining gap between her and a medal. Changing everything (both choreographer and coach, training situation, location etc) would likely end up being a step in the wrong direction.

I'm crossing my fingers John Nicks will help her find a new, good choreographer. I went looking on Wikipedia who Sasha's past choreographers were (not that you can compare Ashley to Sasha, but still) - a lot of programs by Morozov (I didn't know that!), Tarasova and Sasha herself (with John Nicks!). Don't know what kind of choreographer would work best for Ashley?
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Don't know what kind of choreographer would work best for Ashley?

Someone who can tap into her core personality as a skater, bring it out, and exploit it to its fullest.

NOT someone who tries to switch her style or turn her into THEIR idea of a great skater.
 

Jammers

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Nov 4, 2010
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Oh no so sorry for my misunderstanding; I guess I read some other posts too. Isn't Gracie a bit young for Aaron and really cupcakes - is she trying to sink the American team lol.

Aaron is only 21 i think and Gracie turns 18 in a few months.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Joined
Sep 14, 2008
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I was always OK with them getting the bronze, despite being 4th in the FD. However,after I saw the movie, I would probably have given them3rd in the FD over the hot mess that was Delobel & Schoenfelder's "Untouchables" program with the fake gun hands (of course, I have a definite prejudice against fake gun hands, so that is perhaps not wholly fair ;) ).

In fact, if I were on the tech panel, I would not have given Dubreuil & Lauzon level 4 in the twizzles, given that Patrice hopped through them in his less favored direction, and I would also give them lower PCS than they received from the judges, so they and B&A would be about even for me in that dance.

I would have put Delobel & Schoenfelder 7th in both the OD and FD (and so overall too). They had a sloppy, lackluster Worlds. I'd have the Russians 6th. Virtue/Moir and Davis/White in 4th and 5th!
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Wasn't Ashley difficult to work with? If both are strong head, that's how it's going to end.

Anyway, let's get real. Mills got her to 4th best PCS. NO CHOREOGRAPHER will get her higher than that. I see her PCS tanking next year.
 
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