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Thread: Wagner's Olympic Strategy: Play It Safe?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by pointyourtoe View Post
    I know you weren't necessarily referring to me, but when I made the Schindler's List comment it was actually meant as a general comment. I wasn't referring specifically to Gracie's "Life is Beautiful" program, even though we were discussing Gracie. I was actually thinking of a popular youtube video where this girl is doing this interpretive dance to music from "Schindler's List" but she appears to have a smile on her face, which made it kind of awkward for me

    I've seen "Life is Beautiful" many times but when I first saw Gracie's skate, I never would have guessed the music was from that film.
    No, I definitely was not referring to you. I actually saw your post after I posted mine. Sorry!

    My beef was people was saying that Gracie ought to be more forlorn because the movie takes place during the Holocaust, when clearly the movie's whole premise was to show a joyful attitude. That said, did Gracie do a great job being true to the letter of the movie? Probably not.

    However, the music is joyful, beautiful. So I don't see why people were fussing about that aspect of the her interpretation rather the fact that she lacked the nuances to skate to this music.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    No, I definitely was not referring to you. I actually saw your post after I posted mine. Sorry!

    My beef was people was saying that Gracie ought to be more forlorn because the movie takes place during the Holocaust, when clearly the movie's whole premise was to show a joyful attitude. That said, did Gracie do a great job being true to the letter of the movie? Probably not.

    However, the music is joyful, beautiful. So I don't see why people were fussing about that aspect of the her interpretation rather the fact that she lacked the nuances to skate to this music.
    I do think that Gracie's Miss Teen USA pageant smile sometimes is a bit overdone when she skates. Plus did she or her choreographer have a clue what the movie was about or even watch it?

  3. #78
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    I am not sure Wagner is playing it safe or will play it safe. Interesting scenarios. We aren't to gossip but her love or lust life could play a role in her Olympic success. first, she isn't exactly a teen ingenue but her proclaiming her love or lust for Poje may seem pretty stupid in a few years when she is dating some one else or married to someone else. I remember a buddy saying this is the girl for me I know it, God told me so. Six months later he was married to the girl of his dreams - not the girl he proclaimed his love for. but I digress, depending on how the Olympic team competition is done the fact she is dating poje could play into favoring the americans. For example Andrew is excited because he knows his best chance for a medal is in teams but he has to be picked. If Poje calls up excited when he finds out Kaitlyn and him are doing the Short dance and he tells ashley. AShley tells team america and they sub in D and W to ensure the victory in dance. But if they have say the Shibutanis or Chock and Bates the win isn't so clear. the other crazy possibility but highly unlikely is if Poje and Wagner are intimate and she ends up pregnant. Anyways, I am hoping this doesn't happen (any of this but it is a possibility - I mean the sharing of who is skating on the Canadian team to the American (more likely scenario than other way around).

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I am not sure Wagner is playing it safe or will play it safe. Interesting scenarios. We aren't to gossip but her love or lust life could play a role in her Olympic success. first, she isn't exactly a teen ingenue but her proclaiming her love or lust for Poje may seem pretty stupid in a few years when she is dating some one else or married to someone else. I remember a buddy saying this is the girl for me I know it, God told me so. Six months later he was married to the girl of his dreams - not the girl he proclaimed his love for. but I digress, depending on how the Olympic team competition is done the fact she is dating poje could play into favoring the americans. For example Andrew is excited because he knows his best chance for a medal is in teams but he has to be picked. If Poje calls up excited when he finds out Kaitlyn and him are doing the Short dance and he tells ashley. AShley tells team america and they sub in D and W to ensure the victory in dance. But if they have say the Shibutanis or Chock and Bates the win isn't so clear. the other crazy possibility but highly unlikely is if Poje and Wagner are intimate and she ends up pregnant. Anyways, I am hoping this doesn't happen (any of this but it is a possibility - I mean the sharing of who is skating on the Canadian team to the American (more likely scenario than other way around).
    I'm pretty sure, again, Ashley was referring to Kaitlyn, not Andrew in that tweet because it was her birthday, not Andrew's (his is in February). People say stuff like "the love of my life" in a less romantic way too. I'm pretty sure Ashley became good friends with Weaver/Poje after skating with them at Stars on Ice in Canada last year.

    So I think we need to stop using that as a factor in our discussions unless we get proof, (ala Gracie Gold's cupcakes to Max Aaron) that she is dating someone.

  5. #80
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    Okay something of relevance. Phil Hersh posted the following:

    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rjpgtp

    Given the sports news of the day, this is of minor consequence, but here is how choreographer Phillip Mills explained his split from @ashwagner10:

    Ashley Wagner and I have decided to go in different directions. Having worked with the greatest coaches and skaters over thirty years and having a very clear system on what works to make an elite skater successful I have made this decision. Being able to be at the boards and get Ashley to skate like I knew she could at the World Team Trophy was a wonderful way to wind down our relationship.

    We each had a different focus for the upcoming Olympic season. I believe that each choreographer’s program is a work of art that needs to be kept in its original form. I wouldn’t want anyone to change my art and I just would not make changes to someone else’s work. Ashley and I have accomplished so much in the past three years and I’ve enjoyed working with her as her coach and choreographer. This decision opens new opportunities for both of us. I wish her all the best.
    So many questions....what exactly did Ashley do for the Olympic programs that made Mills unhappy? Who is going to choreograph her programs now? Will she stick to only Mr. Nicks or get another coach to assist?

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Okay something of relevance. Phil Hersh posted the following:

    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rjpgtp



    So many questions....what exactly did Ashley do for the Olympic programs that made Mills unhappy? Who is going to choreograph her programs now? Will she stick to only Mr. Nicks or get another coach to assist?
    It sounds like Mills fired Ashley.

    I think it's a shame. Mills really choreographed some unique programs for Ashley that she sold very well. Complex choreography and good transitions. I think he played a large role in her rise these past few seasons, and it's a huge setback for Ashley. I don't know what Ashley did, but at WTT, her performance was definitely a watered down version of what she did earlier in the season. There's bits of choreography and transitions throughout that are gone. I don't think it's a big deal since this is a post-season fluff competition, but maybe Mills was irritated that she did that, since he was there (and she probably didn't regret it).

    I think that getting the right choreographer next season will be extremely critical for Ashley. As for the technical content, a lot of this talk reminds of the pressure that was on Michelle Kwan to up her content in the 2001-2002 season. Everyone complained if she didn't attempt the 3/3; and they complained that she never attempted two of them. Well, 2001 Skate Canada, they got their wish. Michelle upped her attempted content. It was a disaster.

    I think Ashley attempts the most difficult content that she can handle given the pressure of competition, her complex choreography and transitions. I am doubtful that introducing the 3/3 in the SP early in the season or later in the season would matter much. She is just not as proficient with a backend 3T as others are. After all, as a junior, she attempted the 3F/3Lo jump.

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    Michelle overdid it though. You can take baby steps
    Michelle suddenly went from an every-so-often 3t-3t to suddenly attempting TWO 3-3's including a 3lz-3lo, one of the hardest jump combinations ever. She claims in one article to have trained the 3lz-3t and Peggy also said at one point that she was doing the 3s-3lo, I have no idea why she suddenly decided to go for something as insane as a 3lz-3lo.

  8. #83
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    Can't really read minds here. All we have is a vanilla statement saying they've "parted ways". The only thing to go on is that apparently they had differing views on the Olympic program.

    Actually I hope this means we'll see the old Wagner again- the Wagner who held nothing back and went for everything, win or lose. Since she went to Nicks/Mills there has been a sense of caution about her. She is not MK and trying to make her into one is pointless IMHO.

    But above all, program layout is critical, especially jump placement. If she wants all the points she can get...

  9. #84
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    Well, at least Ashley's already looking towards her Olympic programs. I hope that Gracie's doing the same.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I'm pretty sure, again, Ashley was referring to Kaitlyn, not Andrew in that tweet because it was her birthday, not Andrew's (his is in February). People say stuff like "the love of my life" in a less romantic way too. I'm pretty sure Ashley became good friends with Weaver/Poje after skating with them at Stars on Ice in Canada last year.

    So I think we need to stop using that as a factor in our discussions unless we get proof, (ala Gracie Gold's cupcakes to Max Aaron) that she is dating someone.
    Agree with Mrs. P absolutely 100% here. Wagner's tweet clearly referred to Weaver. An earlier anecdote indicative of their friendship: when Wagner's luggage went astray en route to London Worlds, Weaver was among those who came to the rescue and lent clothes to her.

    And from social media, it is apparent that Wagner has many friends -- female and male -- among skaters, and is not shy about frequently expressing/showing her love and affection for them.
    We have to assume that she means platonic love in all cases, unless proven otherwise.

    Random examples:
    Radford tweeted a cute photo from WTT of a peck on the cheek he received from Wagner.
    In the past, she has tweeted references to her "love" for Rippon and for Abbott, and prob. for others.
    Etc., etc.

  11. #86
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    One reason why so many programs suck - outdated choreographers thinking everything they do is untouchable, when CoP is about making every moment count:

    I believe that each choreographer’s program is a work of art that needs to be kept in its original form. I wouldn’t want anyone to change my art and I just would not make changes to someone else’s work.
    Thankfully for Ashley, and me, she made a better decision about the Olympic season. ^_^

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    I had no idea that Mills was such a diva. Skaters have to PERFORM choreography as best they can, in the moment. A sudden balance check, and changes will happen. Now that he's publicly reprimanded Wagner, he may find it hard to get new business....

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Skaters have to PERFORM choreography as best they can, in the moment. A sudden balance check, and changes will happen.
    I agree with this. Unlike a dance recital, a successful figure skating program requires more than just great choreography. If a skater is too exhausted to complete technical elements at the end of a program, then the choreography should be changed.

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    Wow! *SHOCKED* at the Mills/Wagner split... Especially the timing of it! She's on her way to Stars on Ice, right? I didn't think she was already that far into the process of creating her Olympic programs, since the season was still in full swing (Worlds, WTT).
    Mills has done incredible work for Wagner with Pollock, Black Swan and Samson & Delilah. As for her Olympic programs, I have thought about whether or not Ashley needed a 'bigger name' choreographer. But then I thought about all the good Mills has done for Ashley and it'd be sad to dump him after all that. But if *he* dumps *her*... That's weird. I really wonder what's going on there.
    I can imagine they're divas, both of them, so maybe 'artistic differences' aren't that farfetched.

    I just wonder where this leaves John Nicks... Anyone know whether he's officially retired now? Is Ashley looking for a new choreographer *as well* as a new coach? Because as I understood it, Mills was going to become Ashley's fulltime coach in case Nicks retired (so it's not just a choreographer/skater split, it's a coaching split as well). I really hope John Nicks will take Ashley to the Olympics... I truly think he's good for her. Keeps her focused.

    I hope Ashley won't return to Irina for choreo. I never liked Spartacus or Polovetsian Dances that much :(

    Off-season drama has begun...

    ETA: random thought - maybe it was thing with the hair that Mills was unhappy about in Ashley's LP at WTT

    ETA 2: Thinking more about what Mills said about "his art" etc. I don't think he'd be a good coach, if he watches a skater and only cares about 'his piece of art' being performed 'the way he intended it', that's not a good basis for coaching. He's definitely a clever choreographer, though, and I have tremendous respect for that.

  15. #90
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Do you think they deserved the Bronze at that Worlds? I feel it's definitely their best FD ever (discounting the tech).
    I was always OK with them getting the bronze, despite being 4th in the FD. However,after I saw the movie, I would probably have given them3rd in the FD over the hot mess that was Delobel & Schoenfelder's "Untouchables" program with the fake gun hands (of course, I have a definite prejudice against fake gun hands, so that is perhaps not wholly fair ).

    In fact, if I were on the tech panel, I would not have given Dubreuil & Lauzon level 4 in the twizzles, given that Patrice hopped through them in his less favored direction, and I would also give them lower PCS than they received from the judges, so they and B&A would be about even for me in that dance.

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