Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 155

Thread: Is Abbott finished?

  1. #106
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,966
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't think the USFSA should be in the business of "supporting " one skater and holding another one back. That never seems to work. Just run a fair contest at Nationals and let the chips fall as they may.
    Well, first of all, using one competition as the sole benchmark for who gets to go to Worlds is not a good idea. If someone gets sick the day before Nationals, when they are the highest ranked skater in the country internationally, do they deserve to have their career completely thwarted because of it? Not to mention that a lot of skaters can do well on home turf, Nationals is like classmates competing against each other in front of familiar crowds, but then get overwhelmed when skating abroad.

    That aside, things get tricky with the Junior eligibles. Dornbush didn't need to go to 2011 Worlds. He should have been sent to Junior Worlds, which he could have won. And with regards to 2013 Nationals, they didn't support Abbott in that they didn't score the competition correctly. Miner landed a Quad and skated relatively clean they gave him undeserved PCS just for a steady technical effort.

  2. #107
    Outdated Old Dinosaur
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    905
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Well, first of all, using one competition as the sole benchmark for who gets to go to Worlds is not a good idea. If someone gets sick the day before Nationals, when they are the highest ranked skater in the country internationally, do they deserve to have their career completely thwarted because of it? Not to mention that a lot of skaters can do well on home turf, Nationals is like classmates competing against each other in front of familiar crowds, but then get overwhelmed when skating abroad.
    I think Nationals is an excellent place to decide who will represent the country in the WC. We want to see who can deliver when the heat is really on. Who is on the rise, and who is fading?

    It's about handling pressure. I know this is mean, but it gets to the heart of the matter. When Max Aaron lit up the house, who among us didn't expect Jeremy to fold?

    Did anyone, in their secret heart of hearts, say to themselves, "This is fantastic! Jeremy will feed off the energy and deliver a performance for the ages!"

    No. We knew.

    He's a lovely skater, but I haven't seen an overabundance of "fire in the belly."

  3. #108
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    27,957
    I think the more you try to guess who is going to do the best at worlds, the more you just end up outsmarting yourself. I think it is far better to decide things by a competition rather than by the opinion of a committee as to what they think might happen if they send this person or that.

    As for the case of the skater who does well in the Grand Prix, but then flubs Nationals -- well, like TontoK, I hate to be mean, but that's sports. Is it fair that a really, really good team wins a lot of games during the season but then loses the semi-finals and doesn't get to play in the Super Bowl?
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-31-2013 at 03:27 PM.

  4. #109
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,147
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    I think 2nd through 4th places could have been shuffled around in any order with a valid argument for any of those three guys finishing in whichever order. And while I do think either Abbott or Farris would have finished higher than 14th at Worlds, the chances of either holding off Takahashi for 6th (or higher) and getting 3 spots would have been slim to none. So in the end it would not have made a difference.
    In the end that perception speaks pretty badly to Abbott right now also though. One apparently cant even believe he has a good shot to finish top 5 (all he would have needed to give the U.S 3 spots back with Aaron) at a Worlds as poorly skated as Worlds was this year. Considering his talent and the poor mens event at Worlds this year, that is pretty bad that we even say this. Well if that is true it probably is time for him to move on.

  5. #110
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,157
    This is the typical Monday morning QB call, though. Who would have thought that Worlds would have been that poorly skated by the top men contenders? If someone sticks their hand up and says "Oh, I did!" I cry BS. Who also knows what Abbott would have been able to deliver at Worlds if he had been at the event. He could have added to the suck-fest that the majority of that event was or he could have risen above the suck-fest that occured and laid down the performance of his life based on a lack of pressure because of the poor quality of the other skaters in at least one segment. That is just something no one will ever know.

  6. #111
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,828
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't think the USFSA should be in the business of "supporting " one skater and holding another one back. That never seems to work. Just run a fair contest at Nationals and let the chips fall as they may.
    Agreed. It always seems to backfire on federations when they end up giving the favourites more clout, even if they perform poorly at Nationals. And then they're so surprised when they bomb on the World stage.

  7. #112
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,147
    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    This is the typical Monday morning QB call, though. Who would have thought that Worlds would have been that poorly skated by the top men contenders? If someone sticks their hand up and says "Oh, I did!" I cry BS.
    I actually did. The mens event has been super weak since 2008 now, so why would one expect Worlds to have turned into a Golden Souffle all of a sudden. How else is Chan winning almost every event this quad with more falls and major errors than anyone has ever been making to win that many events. How else is a mediocre skater like Evan freaking Lysacek a World, Grand Prix final, and Olympic Champion today, and not even having to do a quad to boot to win any of those. Controversial judging aside, it also says something about the field the last 5 years which is pretty much just what we saw at Worlds this year. Bad. This years Worlds was only a bit worse than the recent norm, not by much though. Given the dire state of the mens event the last half decade it was pretty much the level of skating one should have expected if they were being realistic and reasonable.

  8. #113
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,157
    Typically, though, someone who's considered a favorite skates great or better than the rest did.

  9. #114
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,314
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    USFSA has made a mistake in not supporting Abbott all the way through this quadrennial. He should have been sent to Worlds in 2011, with Dornbush being sent to Junior Worlds instead, and he should have been sent this year over Miner. This lack of support has hurt him a lot, both in confidence and experience in getting to compete at Worlds. If they actually supported him in 2011 and he had that Worlds under his belt, then maybe he would have had a better showing at 2012 Worlds. He was capable of getting on the podium; his performances at Nationals would have been enough to do it. If he managed to do that at 2012 Worlds, then perhaps it would have carried over to this season and he could have made the podium again, or at least done well enough to secure 3 Olympic spots for the Men.
    Here is a flaw in your "logic": Jeremy Abbott was a headcase at Vancouver and ever since and has received a rather large amount of support and favouritism from his fed ever since.

    Ross earned the spot. Jeremy didn't. Abbott fans need to get over the fact that he is a headcase, headcased at Nationals, and stop taking it out on Ross and Max. Ross and Max delivered. Your boy didn't. End of story.

  10. #115
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,966
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think the more you try to guess who is going to do the best at worlds, the more you just end up outsmarting yourself. I think it is far better to decide things by a competition rather than by the opinion of a committee as to what they think might happen if they send this person or that.

    As for the case of the skater who does well in the Grand Prix, but then flubs Nationals -- well, like TontoK, I hate to be mean, but that's sports. Is it fair that a really, really good team wins a lot of games during the season but then loses the semi-finals and doesn't get to play in the Super Bowl?
    The World Figure Skating Championships isn't the Super Bowl. Elite level players in other sports get to compete at top-level events throughout the whole year. In figure skating, the World Championships (or Olympics every 4 years) are the only things that really matter in the end; those events should actually feature all of the best skaters in the World.

    Anyway, it's not about choosing by committee really, but rather just factoring recent results. A formula that combines international season best scores with Nationals results could be used to determine teams. When you have a skater like Abbott in 2011 who was 5th at the World Championships the previous year and had the highest scoring potential out of all the U.S. Men, it's a huge disservice to not send that skater to Worlds just because they had one bad performance.

    There are a lot of outside factors to take into consideration. Do you think skaters like Michelle Kwan, Belbin&Agosto, and Virtue&Moir never should have been sent to Worlds/Olympics in the years where they got byes? What difference is there in someone not competing at Nationals at all, and getting a bye to Worlds because of their previous accomplishments, and someone competing at Nationals and not doing well because they are ill/still recovering or have a boot/skate that needs to be replaced?

  11. #116
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,966
    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Here is a flaw in your "logic": Jeremy Abbott was a headcase at Vancouver and ever since and has received a rather large amount of support and favouritism from his fed ever since.
    How has he received any favoritism at all? That fact that he has not been sent to Worlds twice in the recent years, when he really should have been, is proof that there is no great amount of special support for him from the USFSA.

    Richard Dornbush is the person who has received undeserved favoritism from USFSA this quadrennial. He should have placed behind Ross Miner at 2011 Nationals (and Worlds), in the 2012 season he was sent to 4CC even though he completely BOMBED at Nationals, and in 2013 he was again sent to 4CC even though Adam Rippon placed above him at Nationals.

    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Ross earned the spot. Jeremy didn't. Abbott fans need to get over the fact that he is a headcase, headcased at Nationals, and stop taking it out on Ross and Max. Ross and Max delivered. Your boy didn't. End of story.
    This is really bad logic. You've made no argument for why Ross earned the spot. Abbott didn't "headcase" at Nationals, he simply didn't skate his best. Abbott's mistake on his Quad was no worse than Ross's total pop on his Triple Axel. Beyond that, Abbott just doubled a couple of the less important jumps in his program. The quality of his skating, performance ability, and program should be worth more points. Abbott also had a buffer from the SP, where Ross was overscored to begin with since he received rep points for simply attempting a Quad as his solo jump, even though he puts absolutely NO transitions before it, which should result in an automatic -3 GOE in the SP.

  12. #117
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,701
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    There are a lot of outside factors to take into consideration. Do you think skaters like Michelle Kwan, Belbin&Agosto, and Virtue&Moir never should have been sent to Worlds/Olympics in the years where they got byes? What difference is there in someone not competing at Nationals at all, and getting a bye to Worlds because of their previous accomplishments, and someone competing at Nationals and not doing well because they are ill/still recovering or have a boot/skate that needs to be replaced?
    You think Abbott should be mentioned in the same breathe as Kwan, B&A, V&M?
    Abbott who has NEVER received a world medal.

    Don't conflate two very different issue. One case, legitimate medalists. This case? Oh, where to begin? 15th?

  13. #118
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,147
    I agree Abbott should have gone to the 2011 Worlds, and in fact he was underscored the whole 2010-2011 season as punishment for his Olympic collapse (and even at the 2010 Worlds where he should have medalled). However 2013 was correct. He made alot of mistakes in his Nationals LP, and the top two skated much better, and he had been skating poorly all season so there was no reason to place him on the team while not placing top 2 at Nationals either.

  14. #119
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    27,957
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Anyway, it's not about choosing by committee really, but rather just factoring recent results. A formula that combines international season best scores with Nationals results could be used to determine teams. When you have a skater like Abbott in 2011 who was 5th at the World Championships the previous year and had the highest scoring potential out of all the U.S. Men, it's a huge disservice to not send that skater to Worlds just because they had one bad performance.
    I would have no big problem with some kind of objective point system that took results at several events into account (although it would have to give a fair shot to deserving skaters who did not get a Grand Prix assignment, did not compete at last year's worlds, etc.) What rubs me the wrong way is the notion that the skating federation sends skaters to worlds, rather than the skater earning the trip.

    The case of a dominant athlete who misses nationals due to injury (to use the wording of the USFSA rules) and petitions for a special exception -- I don't know what i think about that. It does seem wrong from the point of view of fair play for the other skaters. But I can see why a federation would want to retain that option for a bigger-than-life skater like Michelle Kwan.

    Maybe something like, no exception for worlds, but an exemption is possible for the Olympics in the case of the reigning world champion only.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-31-2013 at 08:22 PM.

  15. #120
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,147
    Arguing the judging of Nationals is one thing but what on earth did Abbott do so great this year to merit being sent to Worlds over Miner based on overall results of the reason, other than if he had been placed over him at Nationals. Miner's NHK performances were better than anything Abbott did all year. Given all of Abbott's competitions this year no way he would have medalled in a field like that as Miner did. Miner beat Fernandez to medal at a grand prix event (an off Fernandez but still Abbott wouldnt have beaten him), while Abbott's season high point was choking and failing to win a poor grand prix event in a nothing field after leading the short, despite way higher PCS still losing it to Mura who back then was something like the #6 Japanese. So on no planet was Abbott so superior in the general season to merit getting the bye over someone who beat him at Nationals, which would obviously require a significant difference to be justified even if the USFSA started to do that. The only one Abbott could have been justified being sent over despite being beat at Nationals based on overall season is Aaron, but Aaron gave a tour de force performance to win Nationals, and given what he did at Worlds and has done since, it is sure a good thing he wasnt left home in favor of Abbott wasnt it.

    Now in 2011 Abbot not only probably should have been placed higher at Nationals, but even with his 4th place should have been sent to Worlds. Even if his season wasnt outstanding for his standards it was still by far the best of all the U.S men and he was the only U.S man who could compete at the World level with any success at the time. 2013 is a whole other story though.

Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •