State of American Ladies: 2013-14 Season

Selene said:

... I believe them because they seem to have a really good source who is close to Frank Carroll. ...

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Would not surprise me if TSL's source is none other than Frank Carroll himself (with the understanding that he is telling them stuff off the record before it is officially announced).

kwanatic said:

If she has made the switch to Frank, I wonder if the split from her other coach was amicable? I can't imagine it would be given the circumstances. Gracie is obviously an up-and-comer in the sport so ditching her old coach and hitching her wagon to Frank seems like, "Okay, I need to step up to the big league and you guys aren't cutting it." True of course, but it does seem like an odd move to make right before the season starts. When Mirai went to Frank it was b/c she was sinking...Gracie is obviously on the rise so the situations are different.

It will be interesting to see if this turns out to be true...

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maybe she wants to improve other aspects of her skating
and certain coaches have bigger influence than others
Gold has what it takes to be the next big thing since Kwan, very American appeal and good for endorsements

also otp, Karen Chen score 64.46 in her SP
US ladies will be dominant again after 2014 with Gold, Chen and Edmunds
with many B list skaters like Zawadzki, Miller, Hicks, Gao, Nagasu ? etc.
a welcome change of the guards to old skaters like Czisny and Wagner

If you are going to change coaches especially before the Olympic season you don't do it right before the season starts. Not sure what Gracie is thinking. If she is with Frank now it's an upgrade sure but it should have happened months ago.

Why don't we all wait until the announcement is made before we all jump on Gracie?

Also Gracie is hardly the first person to change coaches at the beginning of the season. There are skaters who opt to change coaches in the MIDDLE of the season.

Lest I remind you that Michelle Kwan and Frank Carroll (speak of the devil!) ended their coaching relationship days before Skate America in 2001? I don't want to rehash that whole argument (no coach vs. coach thing), however I do want to point out that elite skaters make decisions they feel is best for them and at what we perceive are "inconvenient" or "inopportune" times.

Also, there could be a whole slew of reasons this may happening beyond "Alex O you're not good enough" and "I need Frank C for political clout/rework all my programs!" that may be playing into the timing of this.

Selene said:

I don't think TSL "let it slip." They put that tweet out for a reason. I believe them because they seem to have a really good source who is close to Frank Carroll.

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Yeah I guess I didn't really mean "let it slip" because it does sound quite intentional. But if that's the case that they really heard something off the record, how unprofessional and disrespectful to put it out. Don't complain about being denied media credentials if you're not going to be a proper media source.

LeCygne said:

Yeah I guess I didn't really mean "let it slip" because it does sound quite intentional. But if that's the case that they really heard something off the record, how unprofessional and disrespectful to put it out. Don't complain about being denied media credentials if you're not going to be a proper media source.

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Apologies. I am going to go back and edit my post, because I did not mean quite what I said either.
I should have referred to the possibility of Carroll himself being TSL's source and of telling them stuff not for attribution (but on the record).
Mea culpa.

(I am neither condemning nor defending TSL, but LeCygne's post made me realize that the original words in my post implied something worse than I intended.)

golden411 said:

Apologies. I am going to go back and edit my post, because I did not mean quite what I said either.
I should have referred to the possibility of Carroll himself being TSL's source and of telling them stuff not for attribution (but on the record).
Mea culpa.

(I am neither condemning or defending TSL, but LeCygne's post made me realize that the original words in my post implied something worse than I intended.)

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Yes, that would make sense.

But I agree with LeCygne that they are really not making a great case to get media credentials in the future. If Frank Carroll is really their source (and we don't know that), then it's really not professional to throw his name around like that especially when it was a totally snarky tweet.

Also "off-the-record' and "not-for-attribution" is a pretty delicate thing. It's a tough game to play-- source development/confidentiality is an art form.

Again, I still stand behind my premise that you need to say straight up what you know and the source and if you can't say the source, state you have one, but cannot be revealed b/c of XYZ. They have a really nice website/blog, why couldn't they say something there instead of these snarky tweets?

Mrs. P said:

.... They have a really nice website/blog, why couldn't they say something there instead of these snarky tweets?

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Maybe because TSL aspires to be the Matt Drudge of figure skating coverage??
I'm not saying that figure skating needs/wants a Matt Drudge (I myself do not think so) -- but maybe they would consider it a badge of honor??

Gracie has added a mime coach recently

http://olympictalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/12/gracie-gold-mime-classes-figure-skating/

golden411 said:

Maybe because TSL aspires to be the Matt Drudge of figure skating coverage??
I'm not saying that figure skating needs/wants a Matt Drudge (I myself do not think so) -- but maybe they would consider it a badge of honor??

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Well if that's the case, then what's it too them if they don't get media credentials?

If they can get the views/audience by being more TMZ than New York Times (something they owned up to some time ago), then it really makes this whole whining about not getting credentials kind of silly. It's what RD said, they seem to not be able to decide what exactly they want to be...

And by the way, I do believe you can be a legitimate curator/news source and still have a voice (i.e. Drudge; Jim Romenesko (http://jimromenesko.com/; popular site for media types); Upworthy (http://www.upworthy.com).

Icey said:

Gracie has added a mime coach recently

http://olympictalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/12/gracie-gold-mime-classes-figure-skating/

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She says: “It’s sort of a new thing that has been added to my training. … The physical acting is to sort of have that emotion where it seems genuine.”

I read this and cringe. If you see Michelle, Irina, Tara, Midori, Sarah, Mao or Yuna performing their best, the joy they express is very real. Hiring a coach to teach you to "fake" genuine emotion is the wrong approach IMO.

"American Timothy Goebel, the 2002 Olympic bronze medalist, worked with a mime, too."

'Nuff said.

Mrs. P said:

Well if that's the case, then what's it too them if they don't get media credentials?

If they can get the views/audience by being more TMZ than New York Times (something they owned up to some time ago), then it really makes this whole whining about not getting credentials kind of silly. It's what RD said, they seem to not be able to decide what exactly they want to be...

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I think they were more "whiny" because they were denied on grounds for "space reasons." Funny, because in photographs, there seems to be a lot of space unless the USFSA was going to hire a bunch of elephant or whale journalists (I mean that literally, not figuratively). And TSL have stated that it hasn't only happened to them.

Well, that "outtake" from their Scott Hamilton interview didn't help either. (When you're first staring out, perhaps you shouldn't bark or bite at the hand that could potentially help you--but Mr. Hamilton did give a weird answer.)

Methinks (and this is strictly my opinion) that USFSA wants to tightly control what the media (IN, NBC) puts out.

Well, that seems to be working well.

drivingmissdaisy said:

she says: “...physical acting is to sort of have that emotion where it seems genuine.”

Hiring a coach to teach you to "fake" genuine emotion...

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THIS. OMG...Seriously? In a nutshell, that statement is exactly what's wrong with Gracie's skating.:sarcasm:

Yeah...
Wanting something to "seem" genuine isn't the right approach. But there's a very blurry line in the world of expressing emotions that I think she is only starting to navigate. She's 18. That's still very young on the emotional development front. Some people just naturally understand how to tell a story and be honest out there and others have to take more time to find it. For Michelle, it was natural. For someone like Carolina I think it took a long time for her to find her style and voice, but now she's found it and it is absolutely captivating. That's not even something I would have said for her four years ago.

Sometimes you have to just throw a lot of stuff at the wall and see what sticks. Mime could be valuable for her. Wait and see. With acting, there is not one "true" or "right" technique to get you there. Sometimes you just have to find what speaks to you.

If Gracie has switched to Frank I'm very curious to see what the outcome will be. I do remember when TSL mentioned someone was dropping out of SLC they also said that Mark Mitchell was in the process of orchestrating a coaching change for one of the 2013 World Team Members. That tweet came out not too long after Champs Camp so I think it's very easily to see a connection there. Also, since they do seem to have a good source at the Toyota Center, and we can probably assume whoever tipped them about Evan also tipped them about the coach switch, I won't be too surprised if Frank is involved in this switch.

samson said:

Yeah...
Wanting something to "seem" genuine isn't the right approach. But there's a very blurry line in the world of expressing emotions that I think she is only starting to navigate. She's 18. That's still very young on the emotional development front. Some people just naturally understand how to tell a story and be honest out there and others have to take more time to find it. For Michelle, it was natural. For someone like Carolina I think it took a long time for her to find her style and voice, but now she's found it and it is absolutely captivating. That's not even something I would have said for her four years ago.

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The thing is, if they are giving her the right material that she can relate to she doesn't have to fake anything. Tonya Harding had some great programs for her style, but I don't think any amount of mime coaching would have let her successfully interpret Lyra Angelica. It's almost as if because she has such a pretty face everyone expects Gracie to be an ice princess, and it's not her.

drivingmissdaisy said:

The thing is, if they are giving her the right material that she can relate to she doesn't have to fake anything. Tonya Harding had some great programs for her style, but I don't think any amount of mime coaching would have let her successfully interpret Lyra Angelica. It's almost as if because she has such a pretty face everyone expects Gracie to be an ice princess, and it's not her.

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Exactly. This is what I posted over at FSU:

kwanatic said:

IMO that was a very poor choice of words. Maybe she should have said she's working on her expression. You can fake expression but you can't fake genuine emotion b/c it comes from within. If you're trying to make something seem genuine, it's already fake. :sarcasm:

BTW, bad actors fake emotion (the poster felt making the emotion seem genuine meant she was talking about acting); great actors find a way to make the emotion real and bring it out in their performance. Skaters who show genuine emotion aren't acting when they skate. They're feeling the music and feeling what they're doing. The emotion they feel is real and that's why it's genuine.

Sorry but that hit a nerve for me. Gracie is not an emotional/artistic/graceful skater; she's a powerhouse with lots of speed and huge jumps. I wish her team would stop trying to make her into something she's not and just embrace who she is as a skater.

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aftertherain said:

I think they were more "whiny" because they were denied on grounds for "space reasons." Funny, because in photographs, there seems to be a lot of space unless the USFSA was going to hire a bunch of elephant or whale journalists (I mean that literally, not figuratively). And TSL have stated that it hasn't only happened to them.

Well, that "outtake" from their Scott Hamilton interview didn't help either. (When you're first staring out, perhaps you shouldn't bark or bite at the hand that could potentially help you--but Mr. Hamilton did give a weird answer.)

Methinks (and this is strictly my opinion) that USFSA wants to tightly control what the media (IN, NBC) puts out.

Well, that seems to be working well.

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USFSA is hardly the only sports organization that wants to tightly control their message. As I said before, TSL has a lot more power in scooping USFSA than whining about the stupid reason they denied credentials. IMO, they were better off the reveal the Gracie coaching change (if they felt it was true). That would have been a bigger FU to USFSA than some video whining about USFSA's media credential policies.

Good journalists don't get derailed by a lack of access. How do you think we're getting those amazing stories about Syria or North Korea? Certainly, it's not because those journalists got "official credentials" from Assad or Kim Jong-un.

Mrs. P said:

Well if that's the case, then what's it too them if they don't get media credentials?

If they can get the views/audience by being more TMZ than New York Times (something they owned up to some time ago), then it really makes this whole whining about not getting credentials kind of silly. It's what RD said, they seem to not be able to decide what exactly they want to be...

And by the way, I do believe you can be a legitimate curator/news source and still have a voice (i.e. Drudge; Jim Romenesko (http://jimromenesko.com/; popular site for media types); Upworthy (http://www.upworthy.com).

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I too think that TSL's whining in public about denial of credentials was unprofessional (ironically so, when they are trying to insist that they are professionals).
And I agree about Romenesko.
The reason I compared TSL to Drudge is that he is capable of driving/manipulating the news cycle among mainstream journalists, but AFAIK is not necessarily respected by them. Or at least not openly respected. (No question that at the same time that many mainstream journalists feel superior to him, a lot of them hypocritically are glued to his site to jump on story ideas that they find there. Yikes, do I sound like Palin? Not my intention at all. )

aftertherain said:

Methinks (and this is strictly my opinion) that USFSA wants to tightly control what the media (IN, NBC) puts out.

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Exactly. But in wanting to control its message, USFS is no worse and no better than any corporation, governmental agency, not-for-profit organization, politician, celebrity, etc., etc.

drivingmissdaisy said:

Hiring a coach to teach you to "fake" genuine emotion is the wrong approach IMO.

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My theory is that Gracie Gold unwittingly goes overboard -- both on ice and off ice -- in applying the discipline and self-control that generally are important to an elite athlete. I hope that the point of the mime coach is to encourage her to share her authentic emotion on the outside instead of keeping it bottled up inside her. I would not call it fakery.

The off-ice equivalent of what I mean:
In the interviews I have seen, GG always seems to aim to please and to say the right things, but she seems to limit her range of facial expressions and body language. One look is an attentive and neutral face; practically the only other one is a smile [which is preferable to a frown, of course ] of a fixed size. She also keeps the tone of her voice almost perfectly consistent. I find myself wishing that she would relax and let her natural personality flow more freely.
Example from the local TV interview that was the original source for NBC's item about the mime coach:
The anchorman asked a question that likened the SLC Classic to the Daytona 500. The quick-witted GG calmly replied (I'm paraphrasing), " If I knew something about other activities, I would say, 'Yes.' " It was a savvy answer to a question that might have thrown someone else (such as me) whose knowledge of auto racing is basically nil. But someone else might also have instinctively shrugged her shoulders and/or made a mock grimace as a lighthearted way of showing self-deprecation, whereas GG did not permit herself to do so. She did not allow herself to chuckle either, and the even tone of her voice belied the charming humor of her words.

golden411 said:

The off-ice equivalent of what I mean:
My theory is that Gracie Gold unwittingly goes overboard -- both on ice and off ice -- in applying the discipline and self-control that generally are important to an elite athlete. I hope that the point of the mime coach is to encourage her to share her authentic emotion on the outside instead of keeping it bottled up inside her. I would not call it fakery.

In the interviews I have seen, GG always seems to aim to please and to say the right things, but she seems to limit her range of facial expressions and body language. One look is an attentive and neutral face; practically the only other one is a smile [which is preferable to a frown, of course ] of a fixed size. She also keeps the tone of her voice almost perfectly consistent. I find myself wishing that she would relax and let her natural personality flow more freely.
Example from the local TV interview that was the original source for NBC's item about the mime coach:
The anchorman asked a question that likened the SLC Classic to the Daytona 500. The quick-witted GG calmly replied (I'm paraphrasing), " If I knew something about other activities, I would say, 'Yes.' " It was a savvy answer to a question that might have thrown someone else (such as me) whose knowledge of auto racing is basically nil. But someone else might also have instinctively shrugged her shoulders and/or made a mock grimace as a lighthearted way of showing self-deprecation, whereas GG did not permit herself to do so. She did not allow herself to chuckle either, and the even tone of her voice belied the charming humor of her words.

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I agree. I think Gracie probably didn't phrase it eloquently. But I don't feel like she's trying to fake something, but as golden411 said, a way to to provoke the emotion that she keeps deep inside her. It's not easy to outwardly express what you're genuinely feeling.

But on the other hand, there's a reason there are phrases like "fake it till you make it." Maybe through the act of mime, she can learn to truly express herself outwardly in the process. The more that she practices letting go and expressing herself, perhaps she will do it for real.

Mrs. P said:

I agree. I think Gracie probably didn't phrase it eloquently. But I don't feel like she's trying to fake something, but as golden411 said, a way to to provoke the emotion that she keeps deep inside her. It's not easy to outwardly express what you're genuinely feeling.

But on the other hand, there's a reason there are phrases like "fake it till you make it." Maybe through the act of mime, she can learn to truly express herself outwardly in the process. The more that she practices letting go and expressing herself, perhaps she will do it for real.

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I agree that Gracie might not have phrased it right, but I still think it's a packaging problem. Gracie is 18, young in the grand scheme of life but not that young in ladies' figure skating. She is who she is, and at this point I'd love to see her make the best of what that is and not try to be something she isn't.