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Thread: State of American Ladies: 2013-14 Season

  1. #136
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Those are the scores the JUDGES are giving her based on her performance. As far as Zijun Li is concerned, she is slower, her jumps are tiny, she is not a better musical interpreter than Gracie---she just smiles more and looks pretty---and her choreography is nothing special. Like it or not, PCS scores are pretty much based on SS, and the other marks are going to remain in that range.

    Gracie IS very fast, and it's hard to be that fast when she's executing tough combinations. That's why her PE score is so high. At WTT, she skated cleanly except for doubling her final jump. She sure did deserve her high PE score.
    Gracie's style may be off-putting to some, but I think it's important to remember that Gracie is scored against the the bullets of the PCS component marks. People seem to be picking on certain aspects of Gracie's skating that aren't actually judged in the PCS categories.

    For example here's what's expected in Choreography/Composition:
    An intentional, developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern, structure and phrasing.
    104
    In evaluating the Choreography/Composition the following must be considered:
    – Purpose (idea, concept, vision, mood);
    – Proportion (equal weight of parts);
    – Unity (purposeful threading of all movements);
    – Utilization of personal and public space;
    – Pattern and ice coverage;
    – Phrasing and form (movements and parts structured to match the phrasing of the music);
    – Originality of purpose, movement and design;
    – Shared responsibility in achieving purpose (for Pair Skating).
    I suppose the only bullet where "arm flailing" and "stone-faced looks" can come to play in this particular category is perhaps in the purpose category. But Gracie actually has good sense of timing/phasing, decent ice coverage. And while her programs look like she's doing choreography, she IS doing choreography. She needs to be marked down in IN.

    Since chuckm brought up P/E let's put those as well:

    Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement;
    – Carriage;
    – Style and individuality/personality;
    – Clarity of movement;
    – Variety and contrast;
    – Projection;
    – Unison and "oneness" (Pair Skating);
    – Balance in performance (Pair Skating);
    – Spatial awareness between partners - management of the distance between partners and management of changes of hold (Pair Skating).
    Again, stone-faced looks and arm flailing do not come into play here, except maybe in "carriage." But she does a great job of projecting herself (big speed, huge jumps, etc.), though her choreography can be improved, Gracie doesn't break from it (unison).

    To be honest, the criticisms of Gracie's skating, if you look in the bullets, should mainly be placed in the category of interpretation. This is the area where she can use the most improvement. However, she still performs the heck out of her programs (though its a bit robot like) and her choreography does tick off the bullets even if she doesn't interpret them well.

    So let's talk about Zijun Li. I absolutely love that girl and think she has great musicality. But again, in this particular category, she does not have the ice coverage that Gracie has, which is a bullet in choreography. She also needs a bit more power as well, which is a bullet in P/E. I think there's a case for having Zijun's scores a bit higher, but I don't see anything where she should be far superior to Gracie's and closer Ashley Wagner, for instance.

    Now I'm not saying Gracie's arrived in the PCS category. Let's consider the fact that she's still three points below Wagner and about 8-10 points below the big three. The judges are still saying that she still needs to improve if she wants to be in the top echelon. But I think they acknowledge what she does well. And as others noted Gracie isn't resting on her laurels either. I think we will see improvement from her.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Gracie IS very fast, and it's hard to be that fast when she's executing tough combinations. That's why her PE score is so high. At WTT, she skated cleanly except for doubling her final jump. She sure did deserve her high PE score.
    I agree she is FAST, but that is factored in to GOE (speed into and out of jumps, she is great here) and SS. To me, just being fast should not boost your PE mark because it is already rewarded elsewhere.

  3. #138
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    WhY do they give skaters points for the choreography when they hardly ever are responsible for it? I can see giving points for the execution and performance of it, but not for the choreography itself. There is a built in degree of unfairness here in that every skater cannot afford one of the top choreographers. I also think, under the present system, the judges should not be aware of who did the choreography, as that might influence their scores.

  4. #139
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ I think the idea is that choreographers work with the skaters and give them the choreography that the skaters are capable of handling, with respect both to the skaters' technical capabilities and to their level of performance abilities. If the skater is capable of presenting stronger choreography, that's what they get, whether the choreographer is famous or not.

  5. #140
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Like so many things in IJS, the label does not mean exactly what I would picture. Here's Choreography:
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    Choreography / Composition

    Definition: An intentional, developed, and/or original arrangement of all movements according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern, structure, and phrasing.

    Criteria:

    Purpose: (Idea, concept, vision, mood)
    To reward the intentional and quality design of a program.

    Proportion (equal weight of all parts)
    Each part and section has equal weight in achieving the aesthetic pursuit of the composition.

    Unity – purposeful threading of all movements
    A program achieves unity when: every step, movement, and element is motivated by the music. As well, all its parts, big or small, seem necessary to the whole, and there is an underlying vision or symbolic meaning that threads together the entire composition.

    Utilization of Personal and Public Space
    Movement phrases are distributed in such a way they communicate from every angle in a 360 degree skater-viewer relationship.

    Pattern and Ice Coverage
    Movement phrases are designed using an interesting and meaningful variety of patterns and directions of travel.

    Phrasing and Form (movement and parts are structured to match the phrasing of the music)
    A phrase is a unit of movement marked by an impulse of energy that grows, builds, finds a conclusion, and then flows easily and naturally into the next movement phrase.

    Form is the presentation of an idea, the development of the idea, and its conclusion presented in a specific number of parts and a specific order for design.

    Originality of Purpose, Movement, and Design
    Originality involves an individual perspective of movement and design in pursuit of a creative composition as inspired by the music and the underlying vision.
    Some of the items in the Choreography description require enough speed to fill the rink and enough skill to actually skate the choreography as well as just the design of the program.

  6. #141
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I agree she is FAST, but that is factored in to GOE (speed into and out of jumps, she is great here) and SS. To me, just being fast should not boost your PE mark because it is already rewarded elsewhere.
    Yes, fast does factor into PE because fast translates into ice coverage (usually) which translates into projection. Also it's presentation and EXECUTION. If the skater is fast and is clean (or near clean) with a difficult program, then that mark typically goes up

  7. #142
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    Choreography / Composition

    Purpose: (Idea, concept, vision, mood)
    To reward the intentional and quality design of a program.

    Sorry, but her programs intentionally devoid any quality design. It was elements after elements.

    Proportion (equal weight of all parts)
    Each part and section has equal weight in achieving the aesthetic pursuit of the composition.

    Same here, generic moves glued together.

    Unity – purposeful threading of all movements
    A program achieves unity when: every step, movement, and element is motivated by the music. As well, all its parts, big or small, seem necessary to the whole, and there is an underlying vision or symbolic meaning that threads together the entire composition.

    Marching steps!!!!

    Utilization of Personal and Public Space
    Movement phrases are distributed in such a way they communicate from every angle in a 360 degree skater-viewer relationship.

    She is above average in this area.

    Pattern and Ice Coverage
    Movement phrases are designed using an interesting and meaningful variety of patterns and directions of travel.

    Above average here, too.

    Phrasing and Form (movement and parts are structured to match the phrasing of the music)
    A phrase is a unit of movement marked by an impulse of energy that grows, builds, finds a conclusion, and then flows easily and naturally into the next movement phrase.

    Since every moves are generic, she is average to below average here.

    Form is the presentation of an idea, the development of the idea, and its conclusion presented in a specific number of parts and a specific order for design.

    Urge, no.

    Originality of Purpose, Movement, and Design
    Originality involves an individual perspective of movement and design in pursuit of a creative composition as inspired by the music and the underlying vision.

    No originality in any elements.

    Her ch is actually one of the weakest component. I wouldn't give any higher than 6. Even that abomination from Adelina is more original.

  8. #143
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    Under the current judging system (points being given for choreography), the skater should have to do his or her own choreography. Like other things being judged, some will be better at it than others. See no reason that this element should be judged other than what the skater can provide. Yes, I know this has the chance of the proverbial snow ball in he****

    QUESTION: Historically, when did hiring an outside choreographer become common place or has it always been that way?

  9. #144
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Not always an outside choreographer, but the coach does/did the choreo for the longest time. It probably became de riguer in the mid-late 80s

  10. #145
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here is a video of Alissa practicing her LP (no jumps). Evidently she will be using the Gone with the Wind program that we saw a few minutes of last year.

    This was posted by TSL (Jennifer and Dave), and linked this afternoon by Sylvia on FSU.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWiI2BgwTeg

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Here is a video of Alissa practicing her LP (no jumps). Evidently she will be using the Gone with the Wind program that we saw a few minutes of last year.

    This was posted by TSL (Jennifer and Dave), and linked this afternoon by Sylvia on FSU.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWiI2BgwTeg
    Best thing I've seen all day. I hope Alissa's hip is okay-- maybe she left out the jumps and Biellmann spins because she's still in recovery. The program looks great. Does anyone know whether she's getting a new SP? It might be time to ditch La Vie En Rose, as lovely as it was.

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    I wish Alissa would, at least once, try a SP or LP outside the typical music she chooses. Something like Latin, Jazz, or an interesting character. I know we complain when skaters do a program that doesn't fit who they are, but her programs over the years have no variety whatsoever.

  13. #148
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    I normally agree...but I think Czisny is a special case in this regard. I actually don't think she'll be able to pull off anything more substantial. I wouldn't mind her experimenting a bit though...perhaps in show pieces.

    Anyway I saw several jumping passes in that run through...didn't keep precise count but seems like that's a 6 or 7-triple program in the works??

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I wish Alissa would, at least once, try a SP or LP outside the typical music she chooses. Something like Latin, Jazz, or an interesting character. I know we complain when skaters do a program that doesn't fit who they are, but her programs over the years have no variety whatsoever.
    She did try Mask of Zorro (music by James Horner) as her SP in 2009-2010. It wasn't especially successful, IMO. It was Latin-themed but even her best performance of it at Skate Canada 2009 lacked the necessary fire/sultriness that the music expects. She also had West Side Story in 2007-2008.

    Alissa has a very narrow range artistically--Swan Lake, Sabrina, to Gone with the Wind and La Vie En Rose--but she is very successful within that range, so it's no wonder that she doesn't venture outside of it. I have a soft spot for Sabrina since her performance of that at 2007 Nationals was the highlight of the ladies, but her best free program is probably Winter into Spring. Unique selection of music, wonderful interpretation.

  15. #150
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    Are all cuts of her music from Gone with the Wind? Until the program got to the obvious GWTW, I didn't recognize the first long section as GWTW.

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