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Thread: State of American Ladies: 2013-14 Season

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Are you serious? Caro never got that kind of inflation Gracie is getting now. When she started out, she had so much trouble breaking 60 in the SP even when she was clean. Her PB in the LP prior to 2011 was 122 or something.
    What are you even talking about? Your statement is absolutely ridiculous. When did she regularly skate clean (no pops or doubled intended triples) and not clear 60? The ONE time I can think of is 2004 COR when she did a 3T-3T and a 3R, but that watered down content wasn't going to pull high scores at that time when Irina, Sasha, and many others were doing 3Z and 3F in the SP.

  2. #212
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    It's hard to do an apples to apples compassion because Carolina's first two world appearances were judged under the 6.0 system.

    Perhaps Gracie is not as fast as Carolina or Yuna, but her PCS scores is reflected as such. It's not like they're getting the sames scores! Carolina's PCS scores in the FS were more than 10 points ahead and Yuna's was 13 points. Don't see the outrage in that regard.

    There is a case to perhaps say hers is too high relative to her peers (i.e. Adelina/Liza/Zijun/Kaetlyn).....

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Rewatched Pocahontas recently, and found this piece

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQr9OzKIO7c

    One of our girls could skate to it. There are two crescendos, one is toward the end of Just Around the River Bend, the other is at the end where she ran to the top of the cliff to see him off. I'm thinking 2A-3T, and 3Lutz-combo.

    It's really special, and if you choreograph it right, it could be magic.

    The guy does a great job with this medley. The whole time, I was thinking Agnes could do this. Maybe even Gao.
    I think Hannah Miller would do a great job with this. Say what you might about her smallish jumps, her interpretation is wonderful.

  4. #214
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonlightSkater View Post
    I think Hannah Miller would do a great job with this. Say what you might about her smallish jumps, her interpretation is wonderful.
    I absolutely love Hannah's interpretation. Really came to admire her a lot more this year. I agree that Pocahontas could be a great pick for her....has she announced her programs yet?

    Glad to see you posting, MoonlightSkater.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    What are you even talking about? Your statement is absolutely ridiculous. When did she regularly skate clean (no pops or doubled intended triples) and not clear 60? The ONE time I can think of is 2004 COR when she did a 3T-3T and a 3R, but that watered down content wasn't going to pull high scores at that time when Irina, Sasha, and many others were doing 3Z and 3F in the SP.
    You have problem understanding or something? When did I say she regularly skate clean?
    In 2005, she was buried with great 3F3T, great 3R, great 2A.
    In 2007, her PCS was like 27 in the SP for clean program with 3F3T, 3Lutz.

    Irina, Sasha didn't have 3Z, didn't have 3x3 in the SP. So. What?

    Your nonsensical statement is ridiculous.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonlightSkater View Post
    I think Hannah Miller would do a great job with this. Say what you might about her smallish jumps, her interpretation is wonderful.
    I think so, too. But I was hoping for one of the Sochi hopefuls to skate it. Hannah is not yet competitive enough to break top 3.

  7. #217
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    I would expect Hannah to skate to something more "mature" even if this would be a good fit for her. Something about Disney scores turns off a lot fo skaters trying to be "serious"

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    ^^That's fair. To be honest Gracie is behind the curve. Most of the ladies make the jump to seniors at 14 or 15...so to be 17 and debuting as a senior is somewhat odd. I know a lot of skaters debut at an older age but the majority of the phenoms come out of the gate younger than Gracie is.

    That's one reason I was so annoyed with her this season. At 17 I was expecting a higher level of maturity and development from a performance standpoint. But I realize now it's going to take time for her to gain that experience and grow and mature.

    The name of the game with Gracie is patience. Even though her skill level is high and she's older, I rank her with the rest of the 15 year olds and below a few of them when it comes to things like artistry, interpretation, etc.
    I totally agree with this.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    In 2005, she was buried with great 3F3T, great 3R, great 2A.
    When did this content not score above 60 ONCE, much less having "so much trouble breaking 60 in the SP even when she was clean"? She broke 60 in EVERY full season of COP, hardly "so much trouble... when she was clean". How can you make such bold statements without even a cursory look at Wikipedia?

  10. #220
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    As far as the Gracie and speed argument goes, I do think she's above average but not close to Carolina or Yu-Na who are the two fastest skaters of this era. I don't even think Gracie is as fast as Mirai was circa 2010...Mirai used to zoom! around the rink before her second growth spurt, to the point she almost ran into the boards several times. Gracie is fast but not exceedingly so. Personally, I find her powerful jumping to be her best attribute. Her jumps are big and effortless-looking. To me, her power is better than Carolina's and just as good as Yu-Na's.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    ^^That's fair. To be honest Gracie is behind the curve. Most of the ladies make the jump to seniors at 14 or 15...so to be 17 and debuting as a senior is somewhat odd. I know a lot of skaters debut at an older age but the majority of the phenoms come out of the gate younger than Gracie is.

    That's one reason I was so annoyed with her this season. At 17 I was expecting a higher level of maturity and development from a performance standpoint. But I realize now it's going to take time for her to gain that experience and grow and mature.

    The name of the game with Gracie is patience. Even though her skill level is high and she's older, I rank her with the rest of the 15 year olds and below a few of them when it comes to things like artistry, interpretation, etc.

    I think it's good that Gracie waited until 17 to come out as a senior. How many phenoms have we seen come out sooner, at 14 or 15, and then flame out as seniors? Personally, and this is just my opinion, I do feel that Gracie has a stronger presence and generally more mature look out there than the younger phenoms like Lipnitskaia, Li, and even Tukt. Yes, her artistry and musical interpretation definitely need work, but what I like is that Gracie keeps your attention. She has charisma, and that is important. You could argue that Lipnitskaia and Li both have more lovely individual positions than Gracie. But their skating lacks amplitude, and fire, and Gracie has some of that.

  12. #222
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyria View Post
    I think it's good that Gracie waited until 17 to come out as a senior. How many phenoms have we seen come out sooner, at 14 or 15, and then flame out as seniors? Personally, and this is just my opinion, I do feel that Gracie has a stronger presence and generally more mature look out there than the younger phenoms like Lipnitskaia, Li, and even Tukt. Yes, her artistry and musical interpretation definitely need work, but what I like is that Gracie keeps your attention. She has charisma, and that is important. You could argue that Lipnitskaia and Li both have more lovely individual positions than Gracie. But their skating lacks amplitude, and fire, and Gracie has some of that.
    I agree. I don't see why Gracie entering seniors at a later age is a negative thing. If anything, it was the right time for Gracie. Not everyone develops at the same pace or peak at the same time, so I'm not sure if there is some sort of predescribed formula for success.

    For what it's worth, Nancy Kerrigan's first U.S. Nationals as a senior was at age 19, and I don't think anyone would say that waiting until then was a detriment to her career. Not everyone is as precocious as Michelle Kwan or Tara Lipinksi (or Adelina, Liza or Julia).

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    When did this content not score above 60 ONCE, much less having "so much trouble breaking 60 in the SP even when she was clean"? She broke 60 in EVERY full season of COP, hardly "so much trouble... when she was clean". How can you make such bold statements without even a cursory look at Wikipedia?
    OMG, that is the point. She was clean, and she got 60.82. That means she had trouble breaking 60 in the SP. Do you have to be super precise to make a point?

    Gracie URed the 3T, edge violated her flip on her first WC and still scored less than 2 points from Caro.

    How can you make such a statement that Caro was even more generously scored when she barely broke 60 in her THIRD season as a senior?

  14. #224
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyria View Post
    I think it's good that Gracie waited until 17 to come out as a senior. How many phenoms have we seen come out sooner, at 14 or 15, and then flame out as seniors? Personally, and this is just my opinion, I do feel that Gracie has a stronger presence and generally more mature look out there than the younger phenoms like Lipnitskaia, Li, and even Tukt. Yes, her artistry and musical interpretation definitely need work, but what I like is that Gracie keeps your attention. She has charisma, and that is important. You could argue that Lipnitskaia and Li both have more lovely individual positions than Gracie. But their skating lacks amplitude, and fire, and Gracie has some of that.
    I agree and disagree.

    I agree that it's better that Gracie waited to make the jump to seniors until she was ready, but the truth of the matter is prior to the 2011-2012 season, she wasn't a factor. She competed at one event on the JGP before going to junior worlds; everyone else competed at least one full season. It took Gracie longer to get her skating under control but I do think it's good that her technique is solid (except the flip) and that she won't/shouldn't have to take a season or two to figure out her technique and retrain her jumps which is something a lot of the others will have/need to do.

    I agree Gracie has a more mature look on the ice but physically she's bigger than a number of her peers so her skating does come across bigger. I also agree that Gracie has amplitude and power when she skates. Her speed is good and her power is excellent which means she leaves a bigger impression on the ice relative to her competitors. I think Li has nice speed and ice coverage and she has very pretty jumps that carry a lot of speed as well. Unfortunately, next to Gracie she doesn't look as fast or powerful b/c she's smaller.

    Where I disagree (and, of course, it's my subjective opinion) is on Gracie's charisma and ability to hold my attention. I think she has charisma but it only comes out in spurts during her time on the ice...it's not consistent during her performances. Gracie spends the majority of her performances in her head. She shows personality during her footwork and at the end, but nearly everything b/w the other elements is blank b/c she's thinking her way through her program. I can almost see the cogs moving in her head when she skates.

    For that reason, she often bores me when I watch her. Jumps are wonderful but if you calculate the amount of time it takes to do the jumps, we're left with a lot of in-between moments that need to be filled and, to me, this is where Gracie frequently drops the ball.

    As I said I realize it is going to take Gracie some time for her non-technical talents to match her technical talents. The lucky thing for her is her technical talents will carry her in the sport while we wait on everything else to catch up...assuming it will. But even if it doesn't I'm sure once the Big Three make their exit Gracie will be on the podium every time as long as she can land her jumps. I want to see her improve her presentation/interpretation/connection to the music/etc. but I doubt a lack of those things will stop her from winning post-Sochi.

  15. #225
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I agree and disagree.

    I agree that it's better that Gracie waited to make the jump to seniors until she was ready, but the truth of the matter is prior to the 2011-2012 season, she wasn't a factor. She competed at one event on the JGP before going to junior worlds; everyone else competed at least one full season. It took Gracie longer to get her skating under control but I do think it's good that her technique is solid (except the flip) and that she won't/shouldn't have to take a season or two to figure out her technique and retrain her jumps which is something a lot of the others will have/need to do.
    You mean from when she started skating until she became a factor, as you say? Or do you mean in her transition to seniors?

    I mean, to go from not making Nationals at the junior levelto the top six in the world within two years is pretty notable. I think it speaks to her ability, as mskater93 noted a few posts back, her ability to learn from her struggles and mistakes.

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