State of American Ladies: 2013-14 Season

For me, Gracie already gets too high PCS. I would have her marks substantially behind Kaetlyn and Adelina, whom I feel present their programs much better than Gracie does. When Gracie nails her program, as she did at Nationals, it is quite an impressive feat because so few women can do a 7 triple program with a 3Z-3T. But I feel like I am watching an impressive athletic accomplishment, not a program that moves me. What is great for Gracie is that if she can present her programs better, she can dominate the field after Sochi for years because her technical content is so strong.

Gracie doesn't seem to be the type to rest on her laurels. She knows where she has to make improvements and i'm sure she will work on them.

drivingmissdaisy said:

For me, Gracie already gets too high PCS. I would have her marks substantially behind Kaetlyn and Adelina, whom I feel present their programs much better than Gracie does. When Gracie nails her program, as she did at Nationals, it is quite an impressive feat because so few women can do a 7 triple program with a 3Z-3T. But I feel like I am watching an impressive athletic accomplishment, not a program that moves me. What is great for Gracie is that if she can present her programs better, she can dominate the field after Sochi for years because her technical content is so strong.

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I totally agree about the PCS that was too high. Otoh it's the off-season and I won't criticize her until I've seen how much she's able to improve with new programs next season.

Maybe Osmond should get higher PCS for her FS if she skated it cleanly, but she hasn't had a clean FS this season, at least not internationally. But she got higher PCS than Gold at Worlds for a FS with two falls, a UR, a flutz and a stepout; her Carmen wasn't nearly as well performed at Worlds as it was at SC.

Jammers said:

Gracie doesn't seem to be the type to rest on her laurels. She knows where she has to make improvements and i'm sure she will work on them.

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This was my observation, too. Even in her Showtime on Ice exhibition performance, her jumps seemed more effortless/Yuna-esque, and she seemed to be making a genuine effort to move to the music rather than through it.

And, in any case, PCS is not wholly dependent on artistry. Gracie has very good basic skating skills, so if she lands her jumps, it's only logical that her PCS would increase.

chuckm said:

Maybe Osmond should get higher PCS for her FS if she skated it cleanly, but she hasn't had a clean FS this season, at least not internationally. But she got higher PCS than Gold at Worlds for a FS with two falls, a UR, a flutz and a stepout; her Carmen wasn't nearly as well performed at Worlds as it was at SC.

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The opposite was true at WTT, although Kaetlyn delivered a cleaner program than she did at Worlds.

Also, do mine eyes deceive me, or did two judges actually give her 9.00's for her Worlds FS? They would have dropped the scores, but still... As good as Osmond is, she's nowhere near Asada or Kostner, who both got solid 8's and 9's for much better free skates.

ForeverFish said:

And, in any case, PCS is not wholly dependent on artistry. Gracie has very good basic skating skills, so if she lands her jumps, it's only logical that her PCS would increase.

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Skating Skills is only 1/5 of the PCS. The next is Transitions; Gracie stops after every spin, awkwardly skates out of her jumps, and essentially has nothing resembling transitions. She only gets high transition marks because of her reputation - she should be getting TR marks in the 5s, to truly represent them. Then Performance/Execution; Gracie has 2 facial expressions - a dead-pan stare, and an "I'm supposed to be smiling right now" look. I see absolutely no emotional connection to the music. Her P/E scores should also be in the 5s. Then comes Choreography; Gracie literally has no choreography, apart from some Kimmie Meissener-arm waving. The rest is just skating around the rink from jump to jump. Finally, the last PCS score is Interpretation; did you see Gracie telling the story of Life is Beautiful? Because I sure didn't. She's not interpreting the music, therefore her Interpretation score should also be low. If Gracie was marked on how bad her PCS actually are, instead of on reputation, she would be correctly getting PCS scores in the high 40s/low 50s. Her 60 PCS mark in her Nationals LP was a JOKE.

^ But other than that, how do you like the girl?

96skiluvr said:

Skating Skills is only 1/5 of the PCS. The next is Transitions; Gracie stops after every spin, awkwardly skates out of her jumps, and essentially has nothing resembling transitions. She only gets high transition marks because of her reputation - she should be getting TR marks in the 5s, to truly represent them. Then Performance/Execution; Gracie has 2 facial expressions - a dead-pan stare, and an "I'm supposed to be smiling right now" look. I see absolutely no emotional connection to the music. Her P/E scores should also be in the 5s. Then comes Choreography; Gracie literally has no choreography, apart from some Kimmie Meissener-arm waving. The rest is just skating around the rink from jump to jump. Finally, the last PCS score is Interpretation; did you see Gracie telling the story of Life is Beautiful? Because I sure didn't. She's not interpreting the music, therefore her Interpretation score should also be low. If Gracie was marked on how bad her PCS actually are, instead of on reputation, she would be correctly getting PCS scores in the high 40s/low 50s. Her 60 PCS mark in her Nationals LP was a JOKE.

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I think you're blaming this "error" on Gracie's so-called international reputation, which is, in actuality, nearly nonexistent--at least compared to big shots like Yuna, Mao, Carolina, Ashley, Akiko, Kanako, etc...even the Russians have been on the senior circuit longer than Gracie has. We're talking about a debut senior who had rather poor performances in the first half of the season, nearly didn't make it out of her own Nationals, and has only skated one clean short in competition. Where is this titanic international "reputation" coming from? Because I wouldn't assign her one, and neither do the international judges.

I assume that you're referring to Gracie's lack of transitions in the FS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU78A1ezsJA

In which case, it's clear that she stops after the spins because her program is choreographed that way...not because she's just that atrocious at transitions. If you take a look at her SP, you'll see that she does have some connecting steps out of her spins. They're not great, but not deserving of PCS as low as 5's, IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEqW03xY4U8

Also, while Gracie needs more flow out of her jumps, I don't see anything particularly "awkward" about how she skates out. She attempts to hold her running edge for as long as her momentum will allow--more speed going INTO the jumps should solve that problem, which is a technical one.

It's evident from Gracie's Worlds protocols that her weakest areas are choreography and transitions, which more or less go hand-in-hand. Her programs are not "literally" devoid of choreography, obviously--there is some attempt to connect to the music, though she could make it more obvious. She isn't getting stellar marks in P/E or IN either...she's consistently in the low to mid sevens, with a few sixes thrown in here and there. And these are season-end scores, after she's made significant improvement in projecting her emotions. I think that "Life Is Beautiful," a bittersweet and emotionally loaded piece, was too much for a skater of Gracie's experience to handle. Trying to shape new seniors to such serious music will almost always fail because of a lack of emotional maturity, which can be blamed on their age and the fact that they haven't had the necessary life experiences to interpret the music. Just compare it to the "Hernando's Hideaway" program, which is much more fun and more "Gracie"--she seemed more comfortable with putting her personality out on the ice.

Meaning no disrespect, but the math says otherwise. Gracie's PCS are adequate--that is, above average, but falling short of the ingenuity that characterizes the top scores. For comparison, Caroline Zhang received pretty consistent fives and sixes in her Cup of Russia LP, which was far removed from ANY of Gracie's free skates this season in terms of quality. It makes sense that Gracie would be getting high sixes to mid-sevens, and the occasional eight from a generous judge.

Everyone knows that you can't use Nationals scoring as a legitimate baseline for evaluating a skater's true skills, because it's almost always inflated. But Gracie also received 60+ at Worlds (with a flawed skate) and 61+ at WTT (with a nearly technically perfect skate). If the international judges are corroborating the Nationals scoring, it's because Gracie has improved enough to give them a reason to.

Well let's look at someone that did get PCS scores in the low 50s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYkB3B_lngk

Compare that to Gracie's LP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWVDqTmzT1Q


According to the judges the first performance was deemed to be in the low 50s acc. to the judges.
Watch it side by side without the music.

What do you think?

ETA: Comparing WTT performances because I couldn't find comparable videos for Worlds.

Meite is slow and lumbering while Gracie is fast and fluid by comparison.

As is, Gracie's PCS range should be about 27 to 28 in the SP, and no higher than 58 in the FS. Her skating skills should be her highest mark (7.5 to 7.75) but arguably everything else should be high 6s to low 7s. Mid to high 7s are too much for what she puts out on the ice.

Hopefully next season she'll show improvement but based on her current level of skating, that's where she is.

What I don't like is to see Gracie beat someone like Zijun Li on components overall. I don't understand that. Comparing their two FS performances from worlds, I don't understand how Gracie is given higher scores in IN, CH and PE than Zijun. Unjustified PCS suck but they suck even more when you compare to someone who actually deserves more and yet doesn't receive it.

kwanatic said:

What I don't like is to see Gracie beat someone like Zijun Li on components overall. I don't understand that. Comparing their two FS performances from worlds, I don't understand how Gracie is given higher scores in IN, CH and PE than Zijun. Unjustified PCS suck but they suck even more when you compare to someone who actually deserves more and yet doesn't receive it.

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I think this is where being from a strong federation helps. If Zijun were from Russia, Japan, or even the US she would be getting the marks she deserves. I don't think skaters from powerful federations are over marked, but rather skaters from weaker federations are under marked (at least until they earn a reputation to be among the best like Yuna or Lu Chen). The end result is the same; being from a strong federation helps one's marks.

drivingmissdaisy said:

I think this is where being from a strong federation helps. If Zijun were from Russia, Japan, or even the US she would be getting the marks she deserves. I don't think skaters from powerful federations are over marked, but rather skaters from weaker federations are under marked (at least until they earn a reputation to be among the best like Yuna or Lu Chen). The end result is the same; being from a strong federation helps one's marks.

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And that's why I say I know politics factor into Gracie's scoring. It's not fair but that's the way it has always been...it just makes it harder for skaters like Zijun to make their mark b/c they don't have that nudge from the judges to get ahead.

kwanatic said:

As is, Gracie's PCS range should be about 27 to 28 in the SP, and no higher than 58 in the FS. Her skating skills should be her highest mark (7.5 to 7.75) but arguably everything else should be high 6s to low 7s. Mid to high 7s are too much for what she puts out on the ice.

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Those are the scores the JUDGES are giving her based on her performance. As far as Zijun Li is concerned, she is slower, her jumps are tiny, she is not a better musical interpreter than Gracie---she just smiles more and looks pretty---and her choreography is nothing special. Like it or not, PCS scores are pretty much based on SS, and the other marks are going to remain in that range.

Gracie IS very fast, and it's hard to be that fast when she's executing tough combinations. That's why her PE score is so high. At WTT, she skated cleanly except for doubling her final jump. She sure did deserve her high PE score.

chuckm said:

Those are the scores the JUDGES are giving her based on her performance. As far as Zijun Li is concerned, she is slower, her jumps are tiny, she is not a better musical interpreter than Gracie---she just smiles more and looks pretty---and her choreography is nothing special. Like it or not, PCS scores are pretty much based on SS, and the other marks are going to remain in that range.

Gracie IS very fast, and it's hard to be that fast when she's executing tough combinations. That's why her PE score is so high. At WTT, she skated cleanly except for doubling her final jump. She sure did deserve her high PE score.

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Gracie's style may be off-putting to some, but I think it's important to remember that Gracie is scored against the the bullets of the PCS component marks. People seem to be picking on certain aspects of Gracie's skating that aren't actually judged in the PCS categories.

For example here's what's expected in Choreography/Composition:

An intentional, developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern, structure and phrasing.
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In evaluating the Choreography/Composition the following must be considered:
– Purpose (idea, concept, vision, mood);
– Proportion (equal weight of parts);
– Unity (purposeful threading of all movements);
– Utilization of personal and public space;
– Pattern and ice coverage;
– Phrasing and form (movements and parts structured to match the phrasing of the music);
– Originality of purpose, movement and design;
– Shared responsibility in achieving purpose (for Pair Skating).

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I suppose the only bullet where "arm flailing" and "stone-faced looks" can come to play in this particular category is perhaps in the purpose category. But Gracie actually has good sense of timing/phasing, decent ice coverage. And while her programs look like she's doing choreography, she IS doing choreography. She needs to be marked down in IN.

Since chuckm brought up P/E let's put those as well:

Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement;
– Carriage;
– Style and individuality/personality;
– Clarity of movement;
– Variety and contrast;
– Projection;
– Unison and "oneness" (Pair Skating);
– Balance in performance (Pair Skating);
– Spatial awareness between partners - management of the distance between partners and management of changes of hold (Pair Skating).

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Again, stone-faced looks and arm flailing do not come into play here, except maybe in "carriage." But she does a great job of projecting herself (big speed, huge jumps, etc.), though her choreography can be improved, Gracie doesn't break from it (unison).

To be honest, the criticisms of Gracie's skating, if you look in the bullets, should mainly be placed in the category of interpretation. This is the area where she can use the most improvement. However, she still performs the heck out of her programs (though its a bit robot like) and her choreography does tick off the bullets even if she doesn't interpret them well.

So let's talk about Zijun Li. I absolutely love that girl and think she has great musicality. But again, in this particular category, she does not have the ice coverage that Gracie has, which is a bullet in choreography. She also needs a bit more power as well, which is a bullet in P/E. I think there's a case for having Zijun's scores a bit higher, but I don't see anything where she should be far superior to Gracie's and closer Ashley Wagner, for instance.

Now I'm not saying Gracie's arrived in the PCS category. Let's consider the fact that she's still three points below Wagner and about 8-10 points below the big three. The judges are still saying that she still needs to improve if she wants to be in the top echelon. But I think they acknowledge what she does well. And as others noted Gracie isn't resting on her laurels either. I think we will see improvement from her.

chuckm said:

Gracie IS very fast, and it's hard to be that fast when she's executing tough combinations. That's why her PE score is so high. At WTT, she skated cleanly except for doubling her final jump. She sure did deserve her high PE score.

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I agree she is FAST, but that is factored in to GOE (speed into and out of jumps, she is great here) and SS. To me, just being fast should not boost your PE mark because it is already rewarded elsewhere.

WhY do they give skaters points for the choreography when they hardly ever are responsible for it? I can see giving points for the execution and performance of it, but not for the choreography itself. There is a built in degree of unfairness here in that every skater cannot afford one of the top choreographers. I also think, under the present system, the judges should not be aware of who did the choreography, as that might influence their scores.

^ I think the idea is that choreographers work with the skaters and give them the choreography that the skaters are capable of handling, with respect both to the skaters' technical capabilities and to their level of performance abilities. If the skater is capable of presenting stronger choreography, that's what they get, whether the choreographer is famous or not.

Like so many things in IJS, the label does not mean exactly what I would picture. Here's Choreography:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

Choreography / Composition

Definition: An intentional, developed, and/or original arrangement of all movements according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern, structure, and phrasing.

Criteria:

Purpose: (Idea, concept, vision, mood)
To reward the intentional and quality design of a program.

Proportion (equal weight of all parts)
Each part and section has equal weight in achieving the aesthetic pursuit of the composition.

Unity – purposeful threading of all movements
A program achieves unity when: every step, movement, and element is motivated by the music. As well, all its parts, big or small, seem necessary to the whole, and there is an underlying vision or symbolic meaning that threads together the entire composition.

Utilization of Personal and Public Space
Movement phrases are distributed in such a way they communicate from every angle in a 360 degree skater-viewer relationship.

Pattern and Ice Coverage
Movement phrases are designed using an interesting and meaningful variety of patterns and directions of travel.

Phrasing and Form (movement and parts are structured to match the phrasing of the music)
A phrase is a unit of movement marked by an impulse of energy that grows, builds, finds a conclusion, and then flows easily and naturally into the next movement phrase.

Form is the presentation of an idea, the development of the idea, and its conclusion presented in a specific number of parts and a specific order for design.

Originality of Purpose, Movement, and Design
Originality involves an individual perspective of movement and design in pursuit of a creative composition as inspired by the music and the underlying vision.

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Some of the items in the Choreography description require enough speed to fill the rink and enough skill to actually skate the choreography as well as just the design of the program.