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Thread: State of American Ladies: 2013-14 Season

  1. #1051
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    No she tanked. She had an ENORMOUS lead after the short and a lot of other people tanked too. Her LP was bad, cringe worthy really. I couldn't even watch.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Mirai had a solid SP at 2010 Worlds, and scored very high there with a score of about 70. She did bomb the FS, however, so many ladies were a mess in the FS (or, conversely, someone who did well in the FS, such as Miki Ando, had a poor SP), that yes, had she just rotated and not fallen on the double axel in the FS, that would have been enough to move into 3rd overall. It was a situation unique to that competition. Mirai, in 7th place overall, was only 3 points away from 3rd place finisher Laura Lepisto.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2010/CAT002RS.HTM
    Thanks to everyone (you too, CarneAsada) for all their explanations, including these.

    And my apologies to mskater -- your use of "tank" now makes sense to me. I did not know that others had tanked in the FS to an even greater extent than Nagasu.

    Was the unique situation of the ladies at 2010 Worlds chalked up to the phenomenon of Olympic hangover for many of them? (I did remember that Nagasu had led after the SP, so she would not be a good example, however.)

  2. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    Thanks to everyone (you too, CarneAsada) for all their explanations, including these.

    And my apologies to mskater -- your use of "tank" now makes sense to me. I did not know that others had tanked in the FS to an even greater extent than Nagasu.

    Was the unique situation of the ladies at 2010 Worlds chalked up to the phenomenon of Olympic hangover for many of them? (I did remember that Nagasu had led after the SP, so she would not be a good example, however.)
    Yes, there definitely was an Olympic hangover for many. Nagasu is kind of an odd example. Note that she really wanted to go for the 3Lz/3T in the SP at the Olympics, but after a slightly weak landing on the 3Lz led her to just go for a 2T. So by the time of Worlds, Mirai kept saying she really wanted to do that 3Lz/3T. She went for it, and though it was DG, she seemed to be energized from it and gave a great performance.

    However, Mirai seemed pretty unprepared to be the leader after the short, and whether it was nerves/pressure and/or a lack of training after the Olympics, her LP was loaded with issues.

    Conversely, the skaters who had relatively disappointing performances at the Olympics did better at Worlds--such as Carolina Kostner, Cynthia Phaneuf, and Laura Lepisto (who had missed her 3/3 in the SP at the Olympics, but like Mirai, really went for it in the SP at Worlds, which ultimately enabled her to hang on to the bronze after a mistake-ridden FS).

  3. #1053
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    Thanks to everyone (you too, CarneAsada) for all their explanations, including these.

    And my apologies to mskater -- your use of "tank" now makes sense to me. I did not know that others had tanked in the FS to an even greater extent than Nagasu.

    Was the unique situation of the ladies at 2010 Worlds chalked up to the phenomenon of Olympic hangover for many of them? (I did remember that Nagasu had led after the SP, so she would not be a good example, however.)
    Kim made some bizarre mistakes and probably shouldn't have even competed as it was obvious she was burned out and a lot of the other skaters looked mentally exhausted also. Mirai on the other hand had been peaking since Nationals had nothing to lose and had a great chance to make a name for herself and win or at least make the podium.

  4. #1054
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    It's clear from all this discussion about Worlds 2010 and Mirai that Mirai still has a lot of fans who wish the best for her. It's just heartbreaking to watch her fall further and further from the top these days, especially since her career could have been so drastically different had she just rotated that double axel in Torino. :(

  5. #1055
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Mirai was the lights out delight of Vancouver-so wonderful was she-my fave skater from the games. She is sill lovely, just not the same skater.

  6. #1056
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    Returning to Mirai with Carroll -- I dunno, I'm not sure her results with him were all that great/that he was a great coach for her anyway. Now, I'm not saying it's not tragic re: her lost potential if she really wanted to stay with him and felt he was the right coach for her -- but from outward appearances I don't think she had her best competitive skates with Frank anyway. ??

  7. #1057
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    I think she should go back to Frank. She and Gracie could really motivate each other.

  8. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by rallycairn View Post
    Returning to Mirai with Carroll -- I dunno, I'm not sure her results with him were all that great/that he was a great coach for her anyway. Now, I'm not saying it's not tragic re: her lost potential if she really wanted to stay with him and felt he was the right coach for her -- but from outward appearances I don't think she had her best competitive skates with Frank anyway. ??
    Vancouver? Worlds 2010 SP?

    Frank claimed after Rachael's awful Worlds skated with an injury that Nagasu was landing all kinds of crazy jumps in practice (triple Lutz-triple Loop and something else), saying "she was ready to go." Too bad we never got to see it.

  9. #1059
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    It is disheartening to see all that potential never get fully realized with Mirai. I am hoping Gracie can get it together, too. She is another one that has me a bit worried. She has to get her nerves under control. Ashley's not my favorite personality wise, but my respect for her has gone way up seeing how she attacks her programs these past few seasons. I wish Mirai and Gracie could go out with that same attack. Especially Mirai, she has nothing to lose now. She's not the favorite anymore and wouldn't it be great if she used that as motivation to go out and prove to everyone that she is still capable!

  10. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    Vancouver? Worlds 2010 SP?

    Frank claimed after Rachael's awful Worlds skated with an injury that Nagasu was landing all kinds of crazy jumps in practice (triple Lutz-triple Loop and something else), saying "she was ready to go." Too bad we never got to see it.
    True, I'd forgotten she was indeed with Carroll by then, though it was her first season with him, right, having moved to him after the 2009 season.

  11. #1061
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    Updated to include NHK and TEB

    I've changed the scoring to keep note of nuances and trends by giving points to the top five in each category.
    1- 15 points.
    2- 13
    3- 11
    4- 9
    5- 7

    Ashley: 167
    Gracie: 119
    Polina: 22
    Christina: 21
    Angela: 20
    Courtney: 18
    Samantha: 14

    So with one event remaining, Ashley is definitely U.S. No. 1 leading up to Nationals. But despite a subpar performance at NHK, Gracie looks good for No. 2.

    The third spot is looking to be more of a dog fight! Polina, Christina, Angela, Courtney and Samantha all bring something to the table....

    Agnes does not look to be part of that conversation nor does Mirai. But maybe they will change my mind at Rostelcom Cup.



    *** Score breakdown below***

    Overall
    Ashley Wagner: 194.37 (TEB)
    Ashley Wagner: 193.81 (SA)
    Gracie Gold: 185.65 (SC)
    -----------
    Gracie Gold: 177.81 (NHK)
    Christina Gao: 173.69 (SC)
    Samantha Cesario: 172.70 (TEB)
    Polina Edmunds: 171.21 (JGP Mexico)*
    Courtney Hicks: 171.08 (U.S. Classic)
    Samantha Cesario: 167.98 (SA)
    Polina Edmunds: 165.77 (JGP Belarus)*
    Gracie Gold: 164.68 (U.S. Classic)
    Mirai Nagasu: 164.51 (Finlandia Trophy)
    Ashley Cain: 162.39 (Nebelhorn Trophy)
    Courtney Hicks: 162.00 (SC)
    Samantha Cesario: 157.29 (U.S. Classic)
    Angela Wang: 155.87 (JGP Czech Skate)*
    Mariah Bell: 153.17 (JGP Mexico)*
    Angela Wang: 152.36 (JGP Baltic Cup)*
    Christina Gao 152.84 (Ondrej Nepela Trophy)
    Vanessa Lam: 152.28 (Finlandia Trophy)
    Agnes Zawadzki: 151.27 (U.S. Classic)
    Kiri Baga: 150.48 (Cup of Nice)
    Barbie Long: 148.19 (JGP Slovakia)*
    Agnes Zawadzki: 147.64 (COC)
    Yasmin Siraj: 142.32 (JGP Latvia)*
    Mirai Nagasu: 141.71 (NHK Trophy)
    Rachael Flatt: 130.18 (Cup of Nice)
    Hannah Miller: 128.20 (JGP Estonia)*
    Mariah Bell: 128.11 (JGP Baltic Cup)*
    Barbie Long: 124.16 (JGP Belarus)*
    Caroline Zhang: 110.12 (SA)


    Short Program
    Gracie Gold: 69.45 (Skate Canada)
    Ashley Wagner: 69.26 (Skate America)
    Ashley Wagner: 66.75 (Trophee Eric Bompard)
    ------------
    Gracie Gold 62.83 (NHK)
    Christina Gao: 62.82 (Skate Canada)
    Angela Wang: 61.41
    Gracie Gold: 58.49 (U.S. Classic)
    Christina Gao: 58.81 (Trophee Eric Bompard)
    Angela Wang: 58.00
    Kiri Baga: 57.91
    Ashley Cain: 57.87
    Polina Edmunds: 57.78
    Agnes Zawadzki: 56.27 (U.S. Classic)
    Courtney Hicks: 54.80 (U.S. Classic)
    Agnes Zawadzki: 53.76 (Cup of China)
    Samantha Cesario: 53.51 (Skate America)
    Polina Edmunds: 52.49
    Christina Gao: 52.14 (Ondrej Nepela Trophy)
    Yasmin Siraj: 51.70
    Courtney Hicks: 50.71
    Mirai Nagasu: 51.01
    Mariah Bell: 49.91
    Samantha Cesario: 47.91 (U.S. Classic)
    Caroline Zhang: 45.76
    Barbie Long: 47.56
    Barbie Long: 45.71
    Mariah Bell: 43.84
    Rachael Flatt: 41.59
    Hannah Miller: 39.17

    Short Program TES
    Gracie Gold: 38.53 (SC)
    Ashley Wagner: 36.21 (SA)
    Angela Wang: 35.89
    -------------
    Angela Wang: 35.02
    Ashley Wagner: 34.53 (TEB)
    Christina Gao: 33.96 (SC)
    Polina Edmunds: 33.35
    Gracie Gold: 32.55 (NHK)
    Courtney Hicks: 31.80
    Gracie Gold: 31.37 (U.S. Classic)
    Ashley Cain: 31.30
    Kiri Baga: 31.11
    Agnes Zawadzki: 30.73 (U.S. Classic)
    Samantha Cesario: 30.52 (TEB)
    Christina Gao: 29.98 (TEB)
    Polina Edmunds: 29.12
    Yasmin Siraj: 28.90
    Agnes Zawadzki: 28.89
    Christina Gao: 27.56
    Samantha Cesario: 27.54
    Courtney Hicks: 26.67
    Mariah Bell: 26.55
    Mirai Nagasu: 25.81[/B]
    Barbie Long: 25.27
    Barbie Long: 25.05
    Mirai Nagasu: 23.61
    Samantha Cesario: 23.31
    Caroline Zhang: 21.04
    Mariah Bell: 21.01
    Rachael Flatt: 19.23
    Hannah Miller: 16.86

    Short Program PCS
    Ashley Wagner: 33.05 (SA)
    Ashley Wagner: 32.22 (SC)
    Gracie Gold: 30.92 (SC)
    -------------
    Gracie Gold: 30.28 (NHK)
    Christina Gao: 28.86 (SC)
    Christina Gao: 28.83 (TEB)
    Mirai Nagasu: 28.20 (Finlandia)
    Gracie Gold: 28.12 (U.S. Classic)
    Mirai Nagasu: 27.40 (NHK)
    Kiri Baga: 26.80
    Ashley Cain: 26.57
    Agnes Zawadzki: 26.54
    Samantha Cesario: 26.03 (TEB)
    Angela Wang: 25.98
    Angela Wang: 25.52
    Samantha Cesario: 25.97 (SA)
    Agnes Zawadzki: 25.84
    Christina Gao: 25.58 (Ondrej Nepela Trophy)
    Courtney Hicks 25.00 (U.S. Classic)
    Caroline Zhang: 24.72
    Samantha Cesario: 24.60
    Polina Edmunds: 24.43
    Courtney Hicks 24.03 (Skate Canada)
    Polina Edmunds: 23.37
    Rachael Flatt: 23.36
    Mariah Bell: 23.36
    Mariah Bell: 22.83
    Yasmin Siraj: 22.80
    Hannah Miller: 22.31
    Barbie Long: 22.29
    Barbie Long: 20.66

    Free Skate
    Ashley Wagner: 127.62
    Ashley Wagner: 124.55
    Gracie Gold: 117.20
    -------------
    Courtney Hicks: 117.08 (Salt Lake Sr. B)
    Samantha Cesario 116.15 (TEB)
    Gracie Gold: 114.98 (NHK)
    Samantha Cesario: 114.47 (SA)
    Polina Edmunds: 113.43
    Polina Edmunds: 113.28
    Courtney Hicks: 111.30 (SC)
    Christina Gao: 110.87 (SC)
    Mirai Nagasu: 110.50
    Samantha Cesario: 109.38
    Gracie Gold: 106.19
    Ashley Cain: 104.52
    Mariah Bell: 103.26
    Christina Gao: 100.70 (Nepala)
    Barbie Long: 100.63
    Vanessa Lam: 95.97
    Agnes Zawadzki: 95.00
    Angela Wang: 94.46
    Angela Wang: 94.36
    Christina Gao: 94.04 (TEB)
    Agnes Zawadzki: 93.91
    Kiri Baga: 92.57
    Yasmin Siraj: 90.62
    Hannah Miller: 89.03
    Rachael Flatt: 88.59
    Mariah Bell: 84.27
    Barbie Long: 78.45
    Caroline Zhang: 65.36


    Free Skate TES
    Polina Edmunds: 62.37
    Courtney Hicks: 62.31 (Skate Canada)
    Ashley Wagner: 61.81 (TEB)
    ------------
    Courtney Hicks: 61.48 (U.S. Classic)
    Polina Edmunds: 61.82
    Samantha Cesario 59.03 (TEB)
    Ashley Wagner: 58.54
    Samantha Cesario: 56.98
    Gracie Gold: 56.09
    Samantha Cesario: 55.79 (Skate America)
    Gracie Gold: 55.58
    Christina Gao: 53.95
    Barbie Long: 53.54
    Mirai Nagasu: 53.46
    Mariah Bell: 52.95
    Ashley Cain: 51.51
    Angela Wang: 49.25
    Christina Gao: 49.09
    Gracie Gold: 49.05
    Angela Wang: 46.59
    Yasmin Siraj: 46.39
    Vanessa Lam: 45.73
    Rachael Flatt: 45.31
    Kiri Baga: 44.85
    Agnes Zawadzki: 43.26 (Cup of China)
    Agnes Zawadzki: 42.79 (U.S. Classic)
    Hannah Miller 41.26
    Barbie Long: 40.64
    Mariah Bell: 40.44
    Christina Gao: 39.41
    Mirai Nagasu: 38.18
    Caroline Zhang: 24.27

    Free Skate PCS
    Ashley Wagner: 66.01 (SA)
    Ashley Wagner: 65.81 (TEB)
    Gracie Gold: 62.11 (SC)
    -------------
    Gracie Gold: 60.40 (NHK)
    Samantha Cesario: 58.90 (SA)
    Gracie Gold: 58.14 (U.S. Classic)
    Samantha Cesario: 57.12 (TEB)
    Mirai Nagasu 57.04 (Finlandia)
    Christina Gao: 56.92 (SC)
    Christina Gao: 56.63 (TEB)
    Courtney Hicks: 55.60 (U.S. Classic)
    Ashley Cain: 54.01
    Christina Gao: 53.61
    Samantha Cesario: 53.59
    Mirai Nagasu: 53.52 (NHK)
    Agnes Zawadzki: 53.21 (U.S. Classic)
    Vanessa Lam:52.24
    Agnes Zawadzki: 51.65 (Cup of China)
    Polina Edmunds: 51.61
    Polina Edmunds: 50.91
    Mariah Bell: 50.31
    Courtney Hicks: 49.99 (SC)
    Angela Wang: 48.87
    Kiri Baga: 48.72
    Angela Wang: 48.11
    Barbie Long: 48.09
    Hannah Miller 47.77
    Yasmin Siraj: 44.23
    Mariah Bell: 43.83
    Rachael Flatt: 43.28
    Caroline Zhang: 41.09
    Barbie Long: 40.81

  12. #1062
    Down With It
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    The third spot is looking to be more of a dog fight! Polina, Christina, Angela, Courtney and Samantha all bring something to the table....

    Agnes does not look to be part of that conversation nor does Mirai. But maybe they will change my mind at Rostelcom Cup.
    ...both of which are skaters KNOWN for slow starts. They'll pick it up mid-season. GPs are often a poor indicator/predictor for the 2nd half of the season.

    And Gao completely tanked her FS today at TEB. She's got time - the main thing for her is not to get discouraged.

  13. #1063
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    ...both of which are skaters KNOWN for slow starts. They'll pick it up mid-season. GPs are often a poor indicator/predictor for the 2nd half of the season.

    And Gao completely tanked her FS today at TEB. She's got time - the main thing for her is not to get discouraged.
    You're right. All these numbers could completely go out the window come nationals.

    That said...momentum does matter for some and Ashley did herself a huge favor by going for it during the GP.

    As for Agnes and Mirai and slow starts, I agree with you to some extent, but even for them their slow start is REALLY SLOW. I've never seen Mirai score so low...

    And Christina is definitely still part of the conversation, I think she's a contender still.

    But for me what the trends tell me is there a LOT of dark horses for No. 3, which I can't really say the same for the men, which appears to be a four-way race with perhaps one or two dark horses.

  14. #1064
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    No doubt Ashley is the top American, but I think her international stock may have dropped a bit due to losing the FS to Adelina. I feel she needed a remarkable season to get an Olympic bronze since Julia and Mao are doing so well.

  15. #1065
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    You're right. All these numbers could completely go out the window come nationals.

    That said...momentum does matter for some and Ashley did herself a huge favor by going for it during the GP.

    As for Agnes and Mirai and slow starts, I agree with you to some extent, but even for them their slow start is REALLY SLOW. I've never seen Mirai score so low...

    And Christina is definitely still part of the conversation, I think she's a contender still.
    I dunno. I think Agnes, Mirai, and Christina's hopes have all plunged with the GP. Actually, I think Christina's Olympic hopes died in TEB today with that FS. It was not a good performance for so many reasons, but even with the jumps, I can't see what difference it would make. She's a nice girl and quite likable off the ice, but on the ice, she just doesn't have enough.

    Ashley solidified herself as US #1. Gracie has lost a bit of momentum since last season relative to the other US ladies, but she's still got a pretty good hold on that #2 spot.

    I think Samantha Cesario has improved her stock a bit. Everyone likes her programs and her maturity, performance abilities. She doesn't have great SS nor does she have complicated programs, but overall, she's enjoyable to watch.

    But really, with the GP almost over, the US lady that I would really like to get the third spot is Polina Edmunds. She has two terrific programs--I love her SP and I like her FS. She has a great jump arsenal, and though she's not as big a jumper as Gracie, she's consistent right now. She's attempting more and accomplishing more than Mirai/Agnes/Christina have on the GP. She has zero experience as a senior, but so what? The third US skater is not going to compete for a medal. But the Olympic experience would be immensely helpful for the next quad, when she would be a medal contender and Olympic medal hopeful.

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