Page 9 of 74 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 59 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 135 of 1105

Thread: State of American Ladies: 2013-14 Season

  1. #121
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,807
    For me, Gracie already gets too high PCS. I would have her marks substantially behind Kaetlyn and Adelina, whom I feel present their programs much better than Gracie does. When Gracie nails her program, as she did at Nationals, it is quite an impressive feat because so few women can do a 7 triple program with a 3Z-3T. But I feel like I am watching an impressive athletic accomplishment, not a program that moves me. What is great for Gracie is that if she can present her programs better, she can dominate the field after Sochi for years because her technical content is so strong.

  2. #122
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,535
    Gracie doesn't seem to be the type to rest on her laurels. She knows where she has to make improvements and i'm sure she will work on them.

  3. #123
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    1,152
    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    For me, Gracie already gets too high PCS. I would have her marks substantially behind Kaetlyn and Adelina, whom I feel present their programs much better than Gracie does. When Gracie nails her program, as she did at Nationals, it is quite an impressive feat because so few women can do a 7 triple program with a 3Z-3T. But I feel like I am watching an impressive athletic accomplishment, not a program that moves me. What is great for Gracie is that if she can present her programs better, she can dominate the field after Sochi for years because her technical content is so strong.
    I totally agree about the PCS that was too high. Otoh it's the off-season and I won't criticize her until I've seen how much she's able to improve with new programs next season.

  4. #124
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,672
    Maybe Osmond should get higher PCS for her FS if she skated it cleanly, but she hasn't had a clean FS this season, at least not internationally. But she got higher PCS than Gold at Worlds for a FS with two falls, a UR, a flutz and a stepout; her Carmen wasn't nearly as well performed at Worlds as it was at SC.

  5. #125
    Miserere Nobis
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Texas Darling
    Posts
    1,530
    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Gracie doesn't seem to be the type to rest on her laurels. She knows where she has to make improvements and i'm sure she will work on them.
    This was my observation, too. Even in her Showtime on Ice exhibition performance, her jumps seemed more effortless/Yuna-esque, and she seemed to be making a genuine effort to move to the music rather than through it.

    And, in any case, PCS is not wholly dependent on artistry. Gracie has very good basic skating skills, so if she lands her jumps, it's only logical that her PCS would increase.

  6. #126
    Miserere Nobis
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Texas Darling
    Posts
    1,530
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Maybe Osmond should get higher PCS for her FS if she skated it cleanly, but she hasn't had a clean FS this season, at least not internationally. But she got higher PCS than Gold at Worlds for a FS with two falls, a UR, a flutz and a stepout; her Carmen wasn't nearly as well performed at Worlds as it was at SC.
    The opposite was true at WTT, although Kaetlyn delivered a cleaner program than she did at Worlds.

    Also, do mine eyes deceive me, or did two judges actually give her 9.00's for her Worlds FS? They would have dropped the scores, but still... As good as Osmond is, she's nowhere near Asada or Kostner, who both got solid 8's and 9's for much better free skates.

  7. #127
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    And, in any case, PCS is not wholly dependent on artistry. Gracie has very good basic skating skills, so if she lands her jumps, it's only logical that her PCS would increase.
    Skating Skills is only 1/5 of the PCS. The next is Transitions; Gracie stops after every spin, awkwardly skates out of her jumps, and essentially has nothing resembling transitions. She only gets high transition marks because of her reputation - she should be getting TR marks in the 5s, to truly represent them. Then Performance/Execution; Gracie has 2 facial expressions - a dead-pan stare, and an "I'm supposed to be smiling right now" look. I see absolutely no emotional connection to the music. Her P/E scores should also be in the 5s. Then comes Choreography; Gracie literally has no choreography, apart from some Kimmie Meissener-arm waving. The rest is just skating around the rink from jump to jump. Finally, the last PCS score is Interpretation; did you see Gracie telling the story of Life is Beautiful? Because I sure didn't. She's not interpreting the music, therefore her Interpretation score should also be low. If Gracie was marked on how bad her PCS actually are, instead of on reputation, she would be correctly getting PCS scores in the high 40s/low 50s. Her 60 PCS mark in her Nationals LP was a JOKE.

  8. #128
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,838
    ^ But other than that, how do you like the girl?

  9. #129
    Miserere Nobis
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Texas Darling
    Posts
    1,530
    Quote Originally Posted by 96skiluvr View Post
    Skating Skills is only 1/5 of the PCS. The next is Transitions; Gracie stops after every spin, awkwardly skates out of her jumps, and essentially has nothing resembling transitions. She only gets high transition marks because of her reputation - she should be getting TR marks in the 5s, to truly represent them. Then Performance/Execution; Gracie has 2 facial expressions - a dead-pan stare, and an "I'm supposed to be smiling right now" look. I see absolutely no emotional connection to the music. Her P/E scores should also be in the 5s. Then comes Choreography; Gracie literally has no choreography, apart from some Kimmie Meissener-arm waving. The rest is just skating around the rink from jump to jump. Finally, the last PCS score is Interpretation; did you see Gracie telling the story of Life is Beautiful? Because I sure didn't. She's not interpreting the music, therefore her Interpretation score should also be low. If Gracie was marked on how bad her PCS actually are, instead of on reputation, she would be correctly getting PCS scores in the high 40s/low 50s. Her 60 PCS mark in her Nationals LP was a JOKE.
    I think you're blaming this "error" on Gracie's so-called international reputation, which is, in actuality, nearly nonexistent--at least compared to big shots like Yuna, Mao, Carolina, Ashley, Akiko, Kanako, etc...even the Russians have been on the senior circuit longer than Gracie has. We're talking about a debut senior who had rather poor performances in the first half of the season, nearly didn't make it out of her own Nationals, and has only skated one clean short in competition. Where is this titanic international "reputation" coming from? Because I wouldn't assign her one, and neither do the international judges.

    I assume that you're referring to Gracie's lack of transitions in the FS:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU78A1ezsJA

    In which case, it's clear that she stops after the spins because her program is choreographed that way...not because she's just that atrocious at transitions. If you take a look at her SP, you'll see that she does have some connecting steps out of her spins. They're not great, but not deserving of PCS as low as 5's, IMO.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEqW03xY4U8

    Also, while Gracie needs more flow out of her jumps, I don't see anything particularly "awkward" about how she skates out. She attempts to hold her running edge for as long as her momentum will allow--more speed going INTO the jumps should solve that problem, which is a technical one.

    It's evident from Gracie's Worlds protocols that her weakest areas are choreography and transitions, which more or less go hand-in-hand. Her programs are not "literally" devoid of choreography, obviously--there is some attempt to connect to the music, though she could make it more obvious. She isn't getting stellar marks in P/E or IN either...she's consistently in the low to mid sevens, with a few sixes thrown in here and there. And these are season-end scores, after she's made significant improvement in projecting her emotions. I think that "Life Is Beautiful," a bittersweet and emotionally loaded piece, was too much for a skater of Gracie's experience to handle. Trying to shape new seniors to such serious music will almost always fail because of a lack of emotional maturity, which can be blamed on their age and the fact that they haven't had the necessary life experiences to interpret the music. Just compare it to the "Hernando's Hideaway" program, which is much more fun and more "Gracie"--she seemed more comfortable with putting her personality out on the ice.

    Meaning no disrespect, but the math says otherwise. Gracie's PCS are adequate--that is, above average, but falling short of the ingenuity that characterizes the top scores. For comparison, Caroline Zhang received pretty consistent fives and sixes in her Cup of Russia LP, which was far removed from ANY of Gracie's free skates this season in terms of quality. It makes sense that Gracie would be getting high sixes to mid-sevens, and the occasional eight from a generous judge.

    Everyone knows that you can't use Nationals scoring as a legitimate baseline for evaluating a skater's true skills, because it's almost always inflated. But Gracie also received 60+ at Worlds (with a flawed skate) and 61+ at WTT (with a nearly technically perfect skate). If the international judges are corroborating the Nationals scoring, it's because Gracie has improved enough to give them a reason to.

  10. #130
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    9,688
    Well let's look at someone that did get PCS scores in the low 50s:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYkB3B_lngk

    Compare that to Gracie's LP.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWVDqTmzT1Q


    According to the judges the first performance was deemed to be in the low 50s acc. to the judges.
    Watch it side by side without the music.

    What do you think?

    ETA: Comparing WTT performances because I couldn't find comparable videos for Worlds.

  11. #131
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,672
    Meite is slow and lumbering while Gracie is fast and fluid by comparison.

  12. #132
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,580
    As is, Gracie's PCS range should be about 27 to 28 in the SP, and no higher than 58 in the FS. Her skating skills should be her highest mark (7.5 to 7.75) but arguably everything else should be high 6s to low 7s. Mid to high 7s are too much for what she puts out on the ice.

    Hopefully next season she'll show improvement but based on her current level of skating, that's where she is.

    What I don't like is to see Gracie beat someone like Zijun Li on components overall. I don't understand that. Comparing their two FS performances from worlds, I don't understand how Gracie is given higher scores in IN, CH and PE than Zijun. Unjustified PCS suck but they suck even more when you compare to someone who actually deserves more and yet doesn't receive it.

  13. #133
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,807
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    What I don't like is to see Gracie beat someone like Zijun Li on components overall. I don't understand that. Comparing their two FS performances from worlds, I don't understand how Gracie is given higher scores in IN, CH and PE than Zijun. Unjustified PCS suck but they suck even more when you compare to someone who actually deserves more and yet doesn't receive it.
    I think this is where being from a strong federation helps. If Zijun were from Russia, Japan, or even the US she would be getting the marks she deserves. I don't think skaters from powerful federations are over marked, but rather skaters from weaker federations are under marked (at least until they earn a reputation to be among the best like Yuna or Lu Chen). The end result is the same; being from a strong federation helps one's marks.

  14. #134
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,580
    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I think this is where being from a strong federation helps. If Zijun were from Russia, Japan, or even the US she would be getting the marks she deserves. I don't think skaters from powerful federations are over marked, but rather skaters from weaker federations are under marked (at least until they earn a reputation to be among the best like Yuna or Lu Chen). The end result is the same; being from a strong federation helps one's marks.
    And that's why I say I know politics factor into Gracie's scoring. It's not fair but that's the way it has always been...it just makes it harder for skaters like Zijun to make their mark b/c they don't have that nudge from the judges to get ahead.

  15. #135
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,672
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    As is, Gracie's PCS range should be about 27 to 28 in the SP, and no higher than 58 in the FS. Her skating skills should be her highest mark (7.5 to 7.75) but arguably everything else should be high 6s to low 7s. Mid to high 7s are too much for what she puts out on the ice.
    Those are the scores the JUDGES are giving her based on her performance. As far as Zijun Li is concerned, she is slower, her jumps are tiny, she is not a better musical interpreter than Gracie---she just smiles more and looks pretty---and her choreography is nothing special. Like it or not, PCS scores are pretty much based on SS, and the other marks are going to remain in that range.

    Gracie IS very fast, and it's hard to be that fast when she's executing tough combinations. That's why her PE score is so high. At WTT, she skated cleanly except for doubling her final jump. She sure did deserve her high PE score.

Page 9 of 74 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 59 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •