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Thread: Figure skating needs CPR

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    I hope that in 2013/2014/2018, hair color -- artificial or otherwise -- is 100% irrelevant.

    And compared to other American ladies, Gold does not have any kind of monopoly on prettiness. (Or on "All-American"-ness, whatever the heck that means.)

    Perhaps McKayla Maroney is the gymnast who is the best model for what might help American skating's popularity.
    She happens to be extremely pretty, but her refreshing personality and candor -- not to mention her excellence in her sport -- are what captured her country's (and even the world's) imagination.

    Agree. Shaun White was mentioned in another thread on basically the same subject. Other than his half-pipe dominance, I think his "light-up-the-room" personal charm explains his popularity more than his distinctive looks.
    Remember Shawn Johnson? 2008 Olympic champion on the balance beam and winner of DWTS? That's what many people (and I) think of when the term "All-American" is brought up. A cute, down-to-earth, smiley girl with a sunny disposition and a can-do attitude.

    I think part of the reason why Gracie hasn't reached McKayla Maroney-levels of fame is because she hasn't had time to grow accustomed to the spotlight that's suddenly been thrown on her. After she gets more comfortable with the constant media attention buzzing around her head, we'll see the real Gracie emerge. And, once she puts more personality on the ice, she'll win the crowd every competition.

    If I may go the superficial route for a moment, I'd dare to suggest that, of the current crop of American ladies, Gracie is by and far the most "conventionally" beautiful. In that blue FS dress, she can pass for a Hollywood star, which is what the press loves. If she ends up winning OGM in 2018, I don't doubt that figure skating's popularity would soar tremendously in the US. It probably won't reach the coverage that it enjoyed during MK's career, if only because the public got to watch MK blossom from a wee little prodigy into one of the biggest names in skating history, but Gracie IS the next star of US skating. IMO, of course.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    I haven't seen any statistical analysis, and Lord knows I haven't done any myself, but I wonder which is more common:

    • A dominant short program win essentially puts the competition away... or
    • Tightly packed short program results where someone down in 6th place is only 5 points down, and can still has a very reasonable chance to win.
    That's a great question. Here is some doodling with last season's marks. Let's pick an arbitrary number (I chose 8 points for men, 6 for women, 7 for pairs and dance) and say that if you are farther behind than that after the short program then you can't win the event on your own. That is, no matter how well you skate in the LP the leader has to mess up for you to win overall. How many contenders "make the cut" and become captains of their fate, or at least lieutenants?

    Under 6.0 the answer is always two. Here is how it worked out for CoP scoring last season.

    Skate America
    Men, 0
    Ladies, 2
    Pairs, 2
    Dance, 1

    Skate Canada
    Men, 2
    Ladies, 4
    Pairs, 0
    Dance, 1

    Cup of China
    Men, 2
    Ladies, 5
    Pairs, 1
    Dance, 2

    Russia
    Men, 0
    Ladies, 5
    Pairs, 0
    Dance, 1

    France
    Mens, 2
    Ladies, 2
    Pairs, 2
    Dance, 1

    NHK
    Men, 1
    Ladies, 0
    Pairs, 2
    Dance, 0

    Grand Prix Final
    Men, 3
    Ladies., 3
    Pairs, 1
    Dance, 2

    Four Continents
    Men, 4
    Ladies, 0
    Pairs, 1
    Dance, 1

    Europeans
    Men's 2
    Ladies, 1
    Pairs, 1
    Dance, 3

    Worlds
    Men, 1
    Ladies, 4
    Pairs, 4
    Dance, 1

    Conclusion...?

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    Remember Shawn Johnson? 2008 Olympic champion on the balance beam and winner of DWTS? That's what many people (and I) think of when the term "All-American" is brought up. A cute, down-to-earth, smiley girl with a sunny disposition and a can-do attitude.
    You just described Kristi Yamaguchi.

  4. #94
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    I do not want to be rude or disrepectful to Gold or Evancho or any other young lady, so cannot say much more than that I remain unconvinced that Gold has superior star quality above and beyond other American ladies.

    The U.S. is in the second term of an African-American president. Last I checked, he and the much-admired First Lady do not have blond hair.

    Shawn Johnson was my favorite gymnast at the 2008 Olympics, and yes, I agree that she is "All-American." (Thanks for not making hair color a prerequisite, ForeverFish.)
    For me, Johnson and Maroney each had an irresistible vibe. IMHO, Gold does not belong in the same sentence with them.
    Agree with Mathman that Yamaguchi also is "All-American." As is Wagner, as is Gao, etc., etc.

    I don't know whether "conventional" beauty is foolproof as a marketable commodity. To some eyes, "conventional" would be generic, boring, dull, tired, you get the idea.

    Agreed that everything here is my subjective opinion too -- no more and no less subjective than anyone else's.

    [Robeye: If you liked Susan Boyle, I hope that you came across Paul Potts too. ]

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    COME ON MATHMAN, USE YOUR MATHS

    Averages 2012-13: Besides Leader (w/Leader)

    Men: 1.7 (2.7)
    Ladies: 2.6 (3.6)
    Pairs: 1.4 (2.4)
    Dance: 1.3 (2.3)


    BTW, Under 6.0 the answer is always 3 (or are you talking about besides the leader? Were you including the leader in your tallies, or not? I'm going to assume no, because you have zeros for some of the disciplines in some of the events.) Since there are no QRs, you can be 3rd, win the free, and win the event. (1.5 + 1 = 2.5 = .5 + 2)

    MY conclusion: When a field is considered "open" (that is, no CLEAR favorite/multiple contenders) there is less division between places, hence, more people "with fate in their own hands". When a fields has one or two clear favorites (i.e. Dance: V/M & D/W) it is much easier to score their shorts on another level for them to be all but untouchable, given they skate up to their potential (don't S*** the bed)

    The more accurate picture of the difference between 6.0 and IJS (I believe) would be to do some kind of analysis of fluidity of position (how easy it is to jump up given an excellent performance, or if a poor performance is reflected in the final position. Say, take average of the sum of the absolute values of the difference between Final Placements and the Short Program Placements of the top 10 places from each event.) This would have to be done for each year, separately, and would also have to be done for 6.0 years as well. However, it is far too late for me to do that kind of in depth analysis, maybe I will tomorrow.

    I'll do the men from 2013 Worlds as an example for you all, if you wanna do it yourselves:

    |1 Final - 1 SP | = 0
    |2 Final - 2 SP | = 0
    |3 Final - 7 SP | = 4
    |4 Final - 9 SP | = 5
    |5 Final - 3 SP | = 2
    |6 Final - 4 SP | = 2
    |7 Final - 8 SP | = 1
    |8 Final - 11 SP | = 3
    |9 Final - 5 SP | = 4
    |10 Final - 6 SP | = 4

    (0 + 0 + 4 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 3 + 4 + 4)/10 = 25/10 = 2.5 (The top 10 places moved around an average of 2.5 spots from their SP placement to their Final Placement)

    Now I would try and average all of the results together (you can do just Worlds, or you can do every major event in a year and then take the average of all the events) from each discipline (separately: i.e. Men's Avg, Ladies Avg, Pairs Avg, Dance Avg) across a quad or two of IJS and try and find a data block of similar size from 6.0 and compare the results. If, as we have been told, that IJS lends itself to more fluid results... the IJS average should be markedly higher than the 6.0. Anyone care to do the statistical calculations (Mathman? )

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    I do not want to be rude or disrepectful to Gold or Evancho or any other young lady, so cannot say much more than that I remain unconvinced that Gold has superior star quality above and beyond other American ladies.

    The U.S. is in the second term of an African-American president. Last I checked, he and the much-admired First Lady do not have blond hair.

    Shawn Johnson was my favorite gymnast at the 2008 Olympics, and yes, I agree that she is "All-American." (Thanks for not making hair color a prerequisite, ForeverFish.)
    For me, Johnson and Maroney each had an irresistible vibe. IMHO, Gold does not belong in the same sentence with them.
    Agree with Mathman that Yamaguchi also is "All-American." As is Wagner, as is Gao, etc., etc.

    I don't know whether "conventional" beauty is foolproof as a marketable commodity. To some eyes, "conventional" would be generic, boring, dull, tired, you get the idea.

    Agreed that everything here is my subjective opinion too -- no more and no less subjective than anyone else's.

    [Robeye: If you liked Susan Boyle, I hope that you came across Paul Potts too. ]
    I certainly appreciate your point of view, golden411. The comments on the apparent hue of Gold's roots was a kind of short-hand, throw-away line, but you seem to have become quite attached to it, so allow me one further comment to your comments: the example of the President and the First Lady is, if I do say so, a bit of a red herring, if the implication is that we have somehow finally become a color-blind society. Your exhortation to celebrate with a group sing of Kumbaya is, I think, slightly premature. I would venture that the Obamas would not endorse this, and as accomplished a personage as Colin Powell has more or less said that this is not yet the reality in America.

    Kristi Yamaguchi came to realize this when it became apparent that she would not enjoy quite the level of acclaim or monetary reward as her predecessors. Have we made fundamental progress since Kristi's time? Yes. Are such issues now negligible? President Obama's re-election notwithstanding, I think not.

    If you find it difficult to agree that longstanding cultural biases still have totemic (and commercial) power, then let us agree to disagree. I will merely say that such biases are still subtly ingrained, even in the language ("fair-haired boy"). Don't shoot the messenger, please. You might want to direct your satirical ire at Pope Gregory the Great. He's the one who started it all, you know .

    OT: For some reason, I find McKayla Maroney annoying. Perhaps I cannot get past the iconic image of her Olympic discontent (something like this ).

    Also: I did run across references/vids to Paul Potts, but haven't actually viewed them yet. One feel-good, light-concealing bushel at a time is probably the limit that my constitution can take .

  7. #97
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    For those not yet saturated with Feel Good stories, here's Paul Potts' audition, singing Nessun Dorma, (and he won, eventually, too)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k08yxu57NA

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Potts

    I would not choose "corn-fed" as an adjective to describe Gracie Gold, since that designation that does not simply denote MidWestern (which she is). It also implies that the girl is rather porky. Gold does not have a spare ounce on her.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn-fed

    It also implies that the girl is a countrified person, a hick, and I doubt that applies to Gracie either.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-10-2013 at 06:50 AM.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    I do not want to be rude or disrepectful to Gold or Evancho or any other young lady, so cannot say much more than that I remain unconvinced that Gold has superior star quality above and beyond other American ladies.

    The U.S. is in the second term of an African-American president. Last I checked, he and the much-admired First Lady do not have blond hair.

    Shawn Johnson was my favorite gymnast at the 2008 Olympics, and yes, I agree that she is "All-American." (Thanks for not making hair color a prerequisite, ForeverFish.)
    For me, Johnson and Maroney each had an irresistible vibe. IMHO, Gold does not belong in the same sentence with them.
    Agree with Mathman that Yamaguchi also is "All-American." As is Wagner, as is Gao, etc., etc.

    I don't know whether "conventional" beauty is foolproof as a marketable commodity. To some eyes, "conventional" would be generic, boring, dull, tired, you get the idea.

    Agreed that everything here is my subjective opinion too -- no more and no less subjective than anyone else's.

    [Robeye: If you liked Susan Boyle, I hope that you came across Paul Potts too. ]
    Definitely Kristi Yamaguchi is "All-American." It's one of the aspects of America that gives me both pride and hope. The thing about Shawn Johnson (another face of all-America) is that she has that brilliant smile and a lot of charisma. She really does shine, and it's not because she's blonde. In fact, to me, the heiress to her crown as scintillating, charismatic gymnastics star is Gabby Douglas. Another incandescent smile, and a face whose expressiveness pulls me in.

    One moment that made me realize that the term "all-American" meant so much more than its limited earlier connotation was when the old TV show Lois and Clark was cast. In the old days, Superman always had blue eyes. (Originally in the comic book, this was for practical reasons: blue, a primary color, was easier to "register" than any other color, because it required only one plate in its printing.) But for this show, the producers cast Dean Cain, who has brown eyes. They didn't make him wear blue contact lenses. Dean Cain isn't just dark-eyed; he's one quarter Japanese. When I read that, I have to say that my heart leaped up. It meant on a deep symbolic level that the icon of mainstream America was someone with all of America in his soul.

    So hooray for Gracie Gold, and she is indeed beautiful, but thank God, it's not just her. The spectrum is wide!

  9. #99
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    In the state of Washington, where cattle are raised on alfalfa, there is a dedicated campaign to denigrate corn fed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    For those not yet saturated with Feel Good stories, here's Paul Potts' audition, singing Nessun Dorma, (and he won, eventually, too)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k08yxu57NA

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Potts

    I would not choose "corn-fed" as an adjective to describe Gracie Gold, since that designation that does not simply denote MidWestern (which she is). It also implies that the girl is rather porky. Gold does not have a spare ounce on her.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn-fed

    It also implies that the girl is a countrified person, a hick, and I doubt that applies to Gracie either.
    Honi soit qui mal y pense. I'm a Gracie booster. The term can be used in either a positive or negative light, depending upon the context. Contra your Wiki reference, I was not utilizing the term as a pejorative, but primarily in the sense of a Midwesterner who looks strong and healthy, which I think should be fairly clear from the manner of its use in my post. A hick? No. "Uncomplicated" is probably closer to the image I was trying to convey. Porky? Definitely not. My description of Gracie led off with "pretty". The nuance I was reaching for was the solid good looks of a New World valkyrie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    In the state of Washington, where cattle are raised on alfalfa, there is a dedicated campaign to denigrate corn fed.
    Shame on them, I say .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    Honi soit qui mal y pense. I'm a Gracie booster. The term can be used in either a positive or negative light, depending upon the context. Contra your Wiki reference, I was not utilizing the term as a pejorative, but primarily in the sense of a Midwesterner who looks strong and healthy, which I think should be fairly clear from the manner of its use in my post. A hick? No. "Uncomplicated" is probably closer to the image I was trying to convey. Porky? Definitely not. My description of Gracie led off with "pretty". The nuance I was reaching for was the solid good looks of a New World valkyrie.
    Man, I love this board. To have someone invoke "Honi soit qui mal y pense" (which keeps autocorrecting to "pens") is so cool. I agree that Gracie has a freshness to her that makes me agree with your use of the term "corn-fed."

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    COME ON MATHMAN, USE YOUR MATHS
    Actually, I did spend a little time with these data. IMHO, the idiosyncrasies overwhelm any recognizable context-free statistical trends. The top two dance teams are way better than the rest -- but we already knew that. Ladies results are chaotic because the competitors with the potential to distance themselves from the field make mistake after mistake. Patrick Chan does not dissolve easily into statistical analysis. Yuna Kim skated in only one event in this study.

    My overall impression is that the differences in the final placements between 6.0 scoring and CoP scoring are not as great as I expected.

    I do like some frisson with my glisten (half sport, half performance art ). But the IJS is deliberately designed to suit the requirements of a well-regulated amateur athletic contest, not the satisfaction of onlookers. I continue to hope for the best while preparing for the worst, in terms of the future of skating as a spectator sport.

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    Kristo didnt come across ss all americab
    Personality comes into pksy.
    Both kayla -kristi more as competitord.
    Pary of all american is wholesome, obey parents, dien to earth, dont act up, flaunt your image or powet, .despite your weath, be nice, kind eyc .
    I n other words dont show off, be like your next doir neighbor. Oold fashion ideas, of charactertkindness, helpfulness ,not getting something on return, fkying under radar, knowing you can, get what you want if pushed.
    Alot of ahletes are all.american.
    Dont let fame, money,power go to your head by acting arrogrant, belittling other athlethes etc

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    The marketing archetypes that a Jackie Evancho or a (hypothetically OGM-winning) Gracie Gold represent are still, I think, very much alive and kicking, and to dismiss this is to fail to distinguish between the pragmatically diagnostic and the normatively prescriptive.
    I think even Mr. Potter would buy a Pandora bracelet from this all-American family.

    http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/G...tJ9660NECx.jpg

    (That's Gracie with her sister Carly and her mom.)

    But to me, the most interesting trend in advertising is that of normative prescriptive beating up on pragmatically diagnostic. In the olden days, if a U.S. advertiser wanted to depict an apple pie schoolroom, all the child actors hired would look like Opie Taylor. Nowadays, the typical Madison Avenue school room looks like the United Nations. The modern family has become "Modern Family."

    One advertising niche that runs counter to this trend comprises companies that sponsor figure skating competitions and shows. There we have Tom and Richard Smuckers ("with a name like Smuckers it has has to be good") picking apples in their family orchard in Ohio in 1954. By the way, here are the real Tim and Richard Smuckers, pictured after having successfully raided Proctor and Gamble of its stake in Folger's Coffee ("good to the very last drop"). Mr. Potter would be so proud.

    http://media.cleveland.com/business_...6621-large.jpg

    Plus, there is also this. Suppose I am a talent agency and a prospective client calls up and says, "I am starting a million dollar ad campaign and I need a young actress to portray a typical girl figure skating champion to star in it." Which file do I turn to, bearing in mind that in the last quarter century 17 out of 25 world champions have been Asian or Asian Americans. ("No, no, I said a figure skater, not someone who looks like they are smart at math.")

    If they asked for a baseball player, on the other hand, that would be easy. Where did I put my Venezuela/Dominican Republic file.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-10-2013 at 01:22 PM.

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