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Thread: Alissa Czisny Update!

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    That's a frightening trend. Landing six clean triples in the FS will be nigh on a miracle.
    I agree. But I see her practicing 3F/3T at Nationals and think her time could be better spent practicing solo triples. A bad 3/3 requires more energy expenditure and results in fewer overall points that a well-executed 3/2. Look what Ashley has accomplished with attempting 6 triple LPs. I think we all generally agree that Mirai is as good as Ashley artistically, so there is no reason for her to be finishing 7th at Nationals.

  2. #77
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    Alissa changed her name to Mirai. That is going to be so confusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I agree. But I see her practicing 3F/3T at Nationals and think her time could be better spent practicing solo triples. A bad 3/3 requires more energy expenditure and results in fewer overall points that a well-executed 3/2. Look what Ashley has accomplished with attempting 6 triple LPs. I think we all generally agree that Mirai is as good as Ashley artistically, so there is no reason for her to be finishing 7th at Nationals.
    No reason except she was very ill and didn't have the stamina.

    I'm sure she's perfectly capable of landing all her triples fully rotated in practice, and her triple-triples. I am guessing that with her the problem probably lies in rotating them in the more draining context of a program. I wonder what type of conditioning and how many run-throughs she trains. Unfortunately the illness at nationals made it pretty much impossible to guage how much her fitness improved through the season.

    (Edit to add: Icey- I'm just going with the flow of the posts where I find them, because that's how conversations normally work. I do wish Alyssa great success with the terribly difficult comeback she's attempting.)

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I agree. But I see her practicing 3F/3T at Nationals and think her time could be better spent practicing solo triples. A bad 3/3 requires more energy expenditure and results in fewer overall points that a well-executed 3/2. Look what Ashley has accomplished with attempting 6 triple LPs. I think we all generally agree that Mirai is as good as Ashley artistically, so there is no reason for her to be finishing 7th at Nationals.
    Mirai is a phenomenal artist, but that will count for little if she can't get consistent triples in combination. She needs to drop the 3Lo and 2A-3T (not worth the lost points) and either ditch or fix the 3-2-2, which wouldn't leave her with much in the realm of technical difficulty except for the 3Lo-2T. Yes, her spins are still great, but those only make up a tiny proportion of TES. Not even Yuna-esque artistry could compensate for the fact that Mirai will have less challenging jumps than some juniors, like Edmunds. Gao and Zawadzki, who can both land 80-90% of their 3-3 attempts, will skate all over Mirai at Nationals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Don't have much hope for Mirai landing 3/3s. She URs her triples even when they are not in combination, so I could see her doing 3F<+3T<. That wouldn't help her case at all.
    Everyone here says she can't land a 3-3. The protocols I am looking at says she landed a 3T-3T in Omaha. It was ratified with no UR and plus GOE. So she can and did land a 3-3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    Everyone here says she can't land a 3-3. The protocols I am looking at says she landed a 3T-3T in Omaha. It was ratified with no UR and plus GOE. So she can and did land a 3-3.
    That was in the SP. Here's what she did in the FS: 3z, 2a+3t<, 3fe<↓, 3f<+2t+2t<, 3lo+2t, 2a, 3lo<<

    I've heard several posters speak of Mirai's artistry. There was little artistry on display in the Nationals FS (I was there). She skated like a robot, with no expression either in her body or her face. But she was visibly devastated when she heard her marks. My take is that she has no realization of how badly underrotated her jumps are. If she doesn't recognize that she has a problem, there is no way that she is going to solve that problem.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    Mirai is a phenomenal artist, but that will count for little if she can't get consistent triples in combination. She needs to drop the 3Lo and 2A-3T (not worth the lost points) and either ditch or fix the 3-2-2, which wouldn't leave her with much in the realm of technical difficulty except for the 3Lo-2T. Yes, her spins are still great, but those only make up a tiny proportion of TES. Not even Yuna-esque artistry could compensate for the fact that Mirai will have less challenging jumps than some juniors, like Edmunds. Gao and Zawadzki, who can both land 80-90% of their 3-3 attempts, will skate all over Mirai at Nationals.
    Mirai's LP 2013 US championships:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HeFWQROmYA
    A bit businesslike. And, even in real time, you can see her turn her toe on the ice on a number of the jump landings
    and the SP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFe1MqAbXbo
    Definitely more perky, more energy and she seemed to feel more comfortable with the program over all.

    Back to Czisny....
    Will be interesting to follow her progress over the season

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
    Mirai's LP 2013 US championships:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HeFWQROmYA
    A bit businesslike. And, even in real time, you can see her turn her toe on the ice on a number of the jump landings
    and the SP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFe1MqAbXbo
    Definitely more perky, more energy and she seemed to feel more comfortable with the program over all.

    Back to Czisny....
    Will be interesting to follow her progress over the season
    Mirai was also ill with the flu during this performance, more so in the FS than the SP, so a lack of energy was definitely understandable. Honestly, I was immensely impressed that she could even stay upright with a raging fever, let alone attempt to land triple jumps.

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    To often in the last couple years Mirai has skated like a zombie at times with no expression in her body or her face.

  10. #85
    I got your program components right here. Pepe Nero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    My criteria certainly does not include being on tenterhooks because my favorite skater is known for falls and/or URd jumps.

    A great skater has these qualities:
    - Consistent jumping ability (Alissa -1)
    - Great spins and footwork (Alissa +3)
    - Speed (Alissa -2)
    - Ability to skate to different kinds of music (Alissa -1)
    - Expressiveness (Alissa +1)
    - Audience connection (Alissa 0)

    Michelle Kwan had all these attributes in the +1 to +3 range
    I don't think what you say is unreasonable, chuckm. Those are very good criteria. I have always wished there was some kind of originality or novelty criterion, so that it was not always about following convention or pleasing the crowd -- or the stifling judges. Of course, AC would do very poorly under such a criterion. Revolutionary Alissa Czisny is not. I still <heart> her.

    I suppose that my hesitation in agreeing with you is that your schema judges AC against perfection (or at least against Michelle Kwan). Judging against perfection is fair, if you're doing that with everyone else. In my view, if you're judging all of the other current US ladies contenders against the same standard, there is no doubt (pending AC's return to 2010-2011 form, which I believe shows her potential, but which none of us, including me, is yet qualified to judge her ability to do) that AC is in the top three. As long as we don't fetishize triple-triples among the woman skaters (and, imo, 3T/3T is a dime a dozen and not worth any more than a 3Z/2T), then AC is a equal contender for the gold at US nationals in January 2014.

    Let me add two (or three?) points: first, I think your (and most people's, I admit) judgment of AC's jumping ability might be unfair. AC is, yes, in a sense, inconsistent. But that's because we judge her against her own best, which is so much [expletive--self-edit] better than anyone else's. Lots of skaters fall a lot. But Alissa is "inconsistent" because when she doesn't fall she's so fracking good. In other words, the only reason people call Czisny inconsistent is that her highs are so darn high.

    Your opinion on AC's audience connection -- well, I am not sure if my response should be "That's just your opinion," or "Who cares?". I feel connected when I watch AC, but I guess you don't. At the same time, I feel like figure skaters should be judged on what they do with their blades - not whether they convince ignorant crowds that they are the most entertaining. Maybe you disagree. Should we give Elvis Stojko all the medals?

    Is AC a slow skater? I have never seen her skate live, and I know one can't judge from television - the focus of the camera makes everyone appear more or less to have the same speed. I have read (widely, on this forum) that she is average, speed-wise. I am hoping that AC gets a host spot at Skate America this fall because it would be close to me and I could see for myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    To me, it's straightforward. If Alissa stands up on her jumps, she will medal at Nationals and make the Olympic team. Alas, I think the odds are against her accomplishing this.
    Didn't you express elsewhere on GS, mathman, a contrary view? The view that Czisny would be judged more harshly by the US judges in 2014, a la Nagasu and Zhang in the recent past?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Agreed depending on the jumps - doubles stood up won't do it. If she skates cleanly she will be on the team no matter what with three spots. Her spins and flow and grance will earn her the spot - the odds of Gold, Wagner and Nagasu all skating clean are very slim - mind you better than Alissa probably skating clean lol.
    As Jason Dungjen has pointed out, AC does not do doubles when she is in doubt. That's why she struggled so much at 2012 Worlds. She went for the triples. Also, Skater Boy, what is "grance"? Or did mean "grace," and simply fail to proofread your post? lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    That's true, ha! I'd rather watch a skater whose skating has the potential to move me even if my knuckles are turning white in the process than a skater who might hit everything but will be forgettable. It's just one of those sports - who cares if a skater wins a gold medal if the performance is blah?

    Then again, I know some people are just never moved by Alissa because her style is too soft for them. Fair enough. I'm not one of them. Good luck Alissa!
    Much love.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe Nero View Post
    I don't think what you say is unreasonable, chuckm. Those are very good criteria. I have always wished there was some kind of originality or novelty criterion, so that it was not always about following convention or pleasing the crowd -- or the stifling judges. Of course, AC would do very poorly under such a criterion. Revolutionary Alissa Czisny is not. I still <heart> her.

    I suppose that my hesitation in agreeing with you is that your schema judges AC against perfection (or at least against Michelle Kwan). Judging against perfection is fair, if you're doing that with everyone else. In my view, if you're judging all of the other current US ladies contenders against the same standard, there is no doubt (pending AC's return to 2010-2011 form, which I believe shows her potential, but which none of us, including me, is yet qualified to judge her ability to do) that AC is in the top three. As long as we don't fetishize triple-triples among the woman skaters (and, imo, 3T/3T is a dime a dozen and not worth any more than a 3Z/2T), then AC is a equal contender for the gold at US nationals in January 2014.

    Let me add two (or three?) points: first, I think your (and most people's, I admit) judgment of AC's jumping ability might be unfair. AC is, yes, in a sense, inconsistent. But that's because we judge her against her own best, which is so much [expletive--self-edit] better than anyone else's. Lots of skaters fall a lot. But Alissa is "inconsistent" because when she doesn't fall she's so fracking good. In other words, the only reason people call Czisny inconsistent is that her highs are so darn high.

    Your opinion on AC's audience connection -- well, I am not sure if my response should be "That's just your opinion," or "Who cares?". I feel connected when I watch AC, but I guess you don't. At the same time, I feel like figure skaters should be judged on what they do with their blades - not whether they convince ignorant crowds that they are the most entertaining. Maybe you disagree. Should we give Elvis Stojko all the medals?

    Is AC a slow skater? I have never seen her skate live, and I know one can't judge from television - the focus of the camera makes everyone appear more or less to have the same speed. I have read (widely, on this forum) that she is average, speed-wise. I am hoping that AC gets a host spot at Skate America this fall because it would be close to me and I could see for myself.
    I have seen Alissa skate live on many occasions, and her speed is not average: she is one of the slowest skaters I have ever seen. IMO, one of the reasons why she is such an inconsistent jumper is due to her lack of speed going into her jumps. She herself is not completely confident when it comes to jumps, and she is so focused on landing her jumps that it detracts from her connection with the audience. Alissa is most appealing to the audience when she is spinning or doing her footwork.

    My criteria was not intended to cite Kwan as 'perfection', because she was not perfect, but she was very, very good. Kwan would get + in every criteria I cited, but not +3 in every one.

    How would I rate other skaters?

    Consistent jumping ability Alissa -1, Wagner +2, Gold +1
    - Great spins and footwork Alissa +3, Wagner +2, Gold +2
    - Speed Alissa -2, Wagner +2, Gold +2
    - Ability to skate to different kinds of music Alissa -1, Wagner +2, Gold-to be determined
    - Expressiveness Alissa +1, Wagner +2, Gold 0
    - Audience connection Alissa 0, Wagner +1, Gold -1


    As Jason Dungjen has pointed out, AC does not do doubles when she is in doubt. That's why she struggled so much at 2012 Worlds. She went for the triples.
    She fell on nearly all her triples---most of which were < or <<--- but also on the 2a. It wouldn't have mattered had she gone for doubles, because she would have fallen on those, too. She had zero ability to control the takeoff and landings of her jumps because the head of her femur was no longer in its normal position.

  12. #87
    I got your program components right here. Pepe Nero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    \She fell on nearly all her triples---most of which were < or <<--- but also on the 2a. It wouldn't have mattered had she gone for doubles, because she would have fallen on those, too. She had zero ability to control the takeoff and landings of her jumps because the head of her femur was no longer in its normal position.
    You and I will have to agree to disagree, Chuckm. Correct me if I'm wrong (please!), but I think you changed both your criteria and your scores for Csizny in your most recent post. ?? Whatevs... We don't have to debate this.

    I hope I get to see Alissa live at Skate America in Detroit this fall. When I think of slow skaters, I think of Caroline Zhang. I have nothing against CZ (in fact, I think US judges have effed her over the last two nationals), but I can detect the slowness of CZ even watching on TV. I have never noticed this about AC. AC has never appeared especially fast to me, but quite frankly, neither has Kostner, who everyone and their mother says is a speed skater. In other words, I'll believe it when I see it.

    (Also, you are not the most trustworthy source on Czisny, chuckm. Ha, ha! It's okay. You probably feel how I feel about her as I feel about other skaters, like Jill Trenary. If Czisny ever won a world championship, I would cry foul too. But I still think AC should get some bronze lovin'. )

    Oh, yeah, by the way. You (chuckm) don't know what would have happened had Czisny shot for doubles at Worlds 2012. Why? (1) Because no one, you included, is psychic. (2) Because you have no empirical support, because AC is not Kiira Korpi, doing doubles when she feels she's in trouble. Prove me wrong. I will watch your youtube citations and take back the claim I've asserted.

    Show me AC turning multiple planned triples into doubles (either because of or not, an undiagnosed INJURY).

  13. #88
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe Nero
    Didn't you express elsewhere on GS, mathman, a contrary view? The view that Czisny would be judged more harshly by the US judges in 2014, a la Nagasu and Zhang in the recent past?
    I think Alissa will be judged harshly if she does not land her jumps. If she does land her jumps, she could be U.S. champion.

    Is AC a slow skater? I have never seen her skate live, and I know one can't judge from television - the focus of the camera makes everyone appear more or less to have the same speed.
    Alissa often participates in local events at the Detroit Skating Club. You could catch her there -- well worth the trip.

    As for her speed, I think that chuckm is right in saying that she approaches her jumps with great deliberation and concentration -- that is, she slows down. In an LP with seven jumping passes in in four minutes, that's a lot of slowing down. Also, her music choices are lyrical and languid rather than peppy.

    Jason Dungjen is spot on about Alissa never backing down or bailing on her planned program. Even in a disaster like 2012 worlds, where we could have forgiven her if she had just stopped in the middle and walked off the ice in tears, Alissa gave 100% from beginning to end and took on each jump as if it were the only jump in the program.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-18-2013 at 06:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    My take is that she has no realization of how badly underrotated her jumps are. If she doesn't recognize that she has a problem, there is no way that she is going to solve that problem.
    I don't know if this is the case. Everyone, including Mirai, knows her jumps are borderline rotated even when fully credited. So I'm not sure that she can tell the difference between a .24 UR and a .26 UR, or a .49 vs .51 UR, which are minor differences rotation-wise but account for major scoring differences. From event to event a lot of us are surprised with how her jumps are scored; sometimes I think the judges are too harsh and other times I think she gets the benefit of the doubt.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe Nero View Post
    Oh, yeah, by the way. You (chuckm) don't know what would have happened had Czisny shot for doubles at Worlds 2012. Why? (1) Because no one, you included, is psychic. (2) Because you have no empirical support, because AC is not Kiira Korpi, doing doubles when she feels she's in trouble. Prove me wrong. I will watch your youtube citations and take back the claim I've asserted.

    Show me AC turning multiple planned triples into doubles (either because of or not, an undiagnosed INJURY).
    I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, but I agree with chuckm's assumption that Alissa's hip injury basically prevented her from landing any jumps, including the 2A. At this point, speculation is all we have, because we'll never know what WOULD HAVE happened had Alissa tried to double her jumps.

    I don't have a problem with turning triples into doubles, a la Kiira Korpi--knowing when to bail on a planned triple jump is the mark of a seasoned skater. It's better to aim for a lower BV than to grit your way through for -3 GOE and a 1-point deduction.

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