Adelina has bigger jumps, though I think Liza's jumps would always have better quality.
Which 2 Russian Ladies will make the Olympic Team?
- Thread starter 96skiluvr
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Adelina has bigger jumps, though I think Liza's jumps would always have better quality.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Liza and Adelina get much higher PCS than other Russian skaters, other than maybe Lipnitskaia. Here are their personal bests:
Sotnikova: 30.20/63.99 (SP/FS)
Tuktamysheva: 27.70/61.65
Lipnitskaia: 27.85/57.43
Radionova: 26.22/54.16
Korobeynikova: 27.17/52.21
Gosviani: 23.21/52.97
Pogorilaya: 24.60/50.10
Leonova: 30.04/61.82 (although that was in 2011, and she's declined unfortunately)
Makarova: 29.09/60.08 (again, in 2011, and she's been on the decline, too)
Unless Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva lose all of their jumps come next season (or Leonova/Makarova somehow regain theirs), it's insane to not send at least one of Sot/Tuk. Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva already have an 8-10 point PCS advantage over any other Russian girl (other than Lipnitskaia) in the FS alone. To suggest the international judges would suddenly give another Russian girl (again, other than Lipnitskaia) comparable PCS is ridiculous. That's why not sending them would be a disaster. Even if Pogorilaya/Korobeynikova/Gosviani skated perfectly in Sochi, they would have a hard time cracking the top 5, whereas a perfect Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva/Lipnitskaia at least have a shot (if even a distant one) at the medals with perfect skates.
And as Moment pointed out, two double salchows is far less severe than a popped loop and a downgraded fall on a 3S... like, I don't even need to do the math to point that out, but anyways: Kostner's two double salchows at EC = 1.75 points, Kostner's popped loop and downgraded fall at WC = 0.34 points. Not to mention, the loop and fall (preventing her from ending with the music properly) were likely much more detrimental to her PCS. A 2S is better than a 1L, and a fall is usually better than a double/single IF the jump isn't downgraded (meaning it's essentially a double with a fall -- that 3S<<(fall) actually ended up being negative points for Kostner with the -1.00 deduction).
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- Nov 12, 2009
Adelina's jumps are big but the technique is nowhere near as good as Liza. Her 3lo and 3s are nice, the 2a can be when she lands it properly (usually she has issues with the landing though), but her toe jumps, particularly that flutz where she is all swingy on the entry, are not great. 3f is better but it's her nemesis jump. 3t is usually alright when she does 3t-3t, but when she does 2a-3t or 3lz-3t, the 3t is usually wonky looking and often UR as well.
Liza has nice toe jumps AND edge jumps, and her technique is much cleaner than most of the others. Her jumps get good elevation too, they just don't cover a lot of ice. But she is petite so it is acceptable that her jumps be on the smaller side. Liza IMO has the best jump technique of all the Russian ladies, the issue is consistency with landing them. If she hits all her big jumps I think she will surely be on the Olympic team, but others can overtake her if she bombs the SP and has mistakes in the FS while someone else skates clean/cleaner.
It may be insane not to send both Liza or Adelina or at least one of them but I am trying to point out their weaknesses may prevent them from being in the top 2 of eligible skaters for Sochi at Russian nationals and how that may put into question whether or not they go to Sochi. Now with Russia skaters don't really have to earn trips to competition and can just be given them like Kovtun but if the nationals results are respected than even if the trip to euros it is possible that Adelina and Tuktamisheva might not even make it to Euros. But it could be that nothing that happens at Russian nationals will matter and Liza and Adelina could be named the team right now. I am not talking being sent - I am talking about being in the top 2 of eligible skaters and of earning a trip. The may not earn a trip. Though the standards could be that they earned it by qualifying for 2013 worlds or getting a trip to the GPF or having Euro medals. They could have earned their trip to Sochi with those things and could be named the team right now.
Sotnikova has been losing her jumps. No triple toe in combo, barely a flip, you have the flip issues. She may lose all her jumps. Not a long trip for her. She's having lots of problems now. Liza really can't do a SP based on jumps. And it's not just worlds. Its GPF, its GP events. It's been a 10th in SP and Russian nationals?
The PCS of juniors and PCS of seniors are different things and the PCS of Liza and Adelina are really in average area. Nothing hard to get about average area PCS, If Liza and Adelina can get that PCS any Russian skater who goes GP evenets and Euros and maybe Olympics could get it. You can't argue that there's anything special about their PCS. You can argue that for Russian nationals even if they continue with their jump or SP issues it could bail them out to where there actually in the top 2 of eligible skaters and could get to Euros.
Kostner added a 3/3 for worlds so I said that helped blunt the errors she made compared to Euros where there was no 3/3 in the fs but two double salchows.
RUssian nationals PCS that is very true. The PCS there is very good for Liza and Adelina and compared to the other Russians but other Russians don't have all of Adelina's jump problems and Lizas SP problems.
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- Aug 21, 2012
When she's CLEAN. As in, strong, big, and technically correct jumps.
Anyway, my opinion. Liza's jumps are good, but they often look labored and small due to her lack of speed.
Her toe jumps are still terrible in pure quality even if she manages to land them. Her toe technique is not good enough to begin with. And I've never seen her land a correct Lutz or a good flip that doesn't look like a flutz preceded by a 3-turn. If she had done that please let me know, I'd like to see them.
Enough Adelina bashing. I really like her skating skills. Her flow across the ice the best among young ladies.
When did she have technically correct jumps?
Even when she's clean,
Flutz is obviously not technically correct.
Flip entrance is ridiculously unstable with edge switch back and forth like Caroline's worst flip circa 2010.
Loop is just ok.
Salchow is also ok.
Toe jump? Ok, she can't even rotate the 3T most of the time.
2A is just another ok jump.
She just doesn't have anything to fall back on. The Russian feds are pushing for the wrong girl. They trade in all other girls for her decent PCS, and without the TES to back up, she will never make it.
Again, even her best jumps don't gain the kind of GOE 5-10 other girls are getting. Kostner's 3loop, 3Sal, 2A would blow her away. Even Ashley's 3loop and 3Sal would blow her away.
One of the most overhyped and overrated skaters in modern era. If you got nothing good, how do you become the "next" something? Russian hype machine is quite powerful.
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- Feb 17, 2010
Aside from Adelina, Liza, and Alena, all the senior-eligible Russian girls are boring and have tiny jumps. They all skate to the same lovely music and hyperextend their bodies. They have zero personality on the ice. There is a reason these three personal best scores are far better than the others.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Agreed. And the other Russian girls haven't proven themselves nearly as much as those 3 (other than a waning Leonova/Makarova). Nobody knows who Pogorilaya and Korobeynikova even are, compared to Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva (and now Lipnitskaia).
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- Jun 16, 2010
I can see talking about Leonova somewhat still, but why on earth is anyone even mentioning Makarova. She is so done it is not even funny. Anyway she is retired and going to school in the U.S basically now.
I said it before but even if this is true about the Russian skaters sotnikova and tuktamisheva could lose to those girls but probably still be on the team anyway. Adelina and Liza have enough flaws that losing to those girls is very possible but I can see that no one Believes anyone but sotnikova or tuktamisheva will be the team.
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- Jun 16, 2010
I believe the team will be Lipnitskaia with someone else. I will be very surprised if Lipnitskaia doesnt make the team and I think the other spot will be wide open.
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- Nov 13, 2012
"no one" believes? I've seen quite a few different opinions, so I think that's quite an exaggeration... Actually, I think a poll would be rather interesting, to find out what people actually DO believe. I'd be interested in seeing the results of such a poll, certainly. If the opinions in this thread is anything to go by, I think it would be quite diverse.
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- Aug 21, 2012
I don't know how much clearer I can be.
Technically CORRECT means that she FIXES those issues, which isn't impossible.
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- Feb 17, 2010
Some people refuse to look at facts and are just so biased against skaters that you cannot take them seriously.
At Europeans, Adelina received +GOE on ALL jumping elements, including the two 3T's that she "can't even rotate", in the SP. In the LP there, she got +GOE on 5 of her 7 "terrible" jumping passes. At Worlds, 2 of 3 jumping passes got +GOE in the SP and 3 of 7 in the LP (somewhat disappointedly). At WTT she was 2/3 and 4/7. She obviously is not Yuna Kim in jumping consistency but she is one of the best in the World and far as the ability to get GOE based on the quality of her jump technique.
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- Jun 16, 2010
The way judges score today any skater who lands a clean jump that is better than Caroline Zhang's will get some kind of positive GOE. Sotnikova's clean jumps are not in the league of Kim, Kostner, Gold, and many others in GOE though.
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- Feb 17, 2010
Do you actually look at protocols before you make these statements? Adelina gets better GOE on clean jumps than Gracie. Adelina got higher GOE on her 3F in her Worlds LP than any jump Gracie did in the LP. In the SP, they both did clean 2A's and Adelina's scored higher.
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- Jun 16, 2010
Gold did 4 clean triples in her LP and gained 3.8 points in GOE. Sotnikova did 4 clean triples and gained 1.99 points in GOE. That is with Sotnikova not doing her triple lutz combo cleanly which would probably get -GOE even had she done it (unless you discount her flutz as a clean jump when that is all she is capable of, lol) and Gold missing some of her money jumps. Gold gained 1.3 points on her double axel-triple toe sequence vs the 1.2 Sotnikova gained on her triple flip so you are wrong there as well. I could go over other competitions they have been in together in the last year plus and Gold's clean jumps consistently get more GOE than Sotnikova's in those as well. You can continue deluding yourself Sotnikova is a better jumper than Gold in anything but consistency, and that Sotnikova doesnt have technique problems with a bad flutz, funny takeof technique on many jumps, and chronic UR problems, but you will find few people who concur with you.
Given that you are the one who said Adelina might beat Yu Na Kim in the SP if both skate cleanly with a triple-triple and that Adelina is stronger technically than Kim if both skate cleanly, it is clear you are a diehard Sotnikova fan who is quite delusional about her abilities however.
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- Feb 17, 2010
When did I ever say that? I can accept many things but please do not lie about what other people said on here. I may have said Adelina could beat Kim on TES on the strength of her spins if she were to nail her jumps.
Second, there is a difference between a JUMP and a JUMP COMBINATION, but I wouldn't expect you to know the difference.
Third, virtually every skater has a "chronic UR problem" if Adelina is your standard.
I am a big Adelina fan, I do not think she is as good as the top 3, but IMO on talent she is 4th. You can call me delusional but please quit lying about things I said. It is not very nice.
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