2013 - 2014 Russian skaters, rules, and events

sky_fly20 · Sep 4, 2013

drivingmissdaisy · Sep 4, 2013

gmyers said:
Yeah but Adelina lost the free skates to Liza at both events!

So it's better to win the LP than it is the entire competition. OK.

drivingmissdaisy · Sep 4, 2013

bluesky85 said:
I agree. But I wonder if Alena actually knew Sotnikova's program would be Carmen before she chose it for herself....

Well she had to know in an Olympic year at least 5 women would be skating to Carmen. :laugh:

gmyers · Sep 4, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
So it's better to win the LP than it is the entire competition. OK.

You are just not getting it! I am including all the skating of the entire season from gp to wtt! Saying Adelina was the best and leader of Russian girls in the 2012-2013 season is wrong. She in fact lost Russian nationals and came third there and so in Russia she was third. The best results all season were Liza Julia then Adelina. Adelina because she can't do the fs given to her didn't medal at one of her gps didn't make the gp final didn't win Russian nationals didn't win euros bombed at worlds and wtt losing free skates to Liza most of the time. She didn't win anything. Maybe when she gets a free skate she can do she Could win something but now all she does is bomb free skates.

LRK · Sep 4, 2013

I suppose the question really is whose problems are the "easiest" to fix - Liza's SP woes, or Adelina's troubles? The next season will tell, no doubt.

Mirunna · Sep 4, 2013

gmyers said:
She didn't win anything

And your point is? Neither did Liza/Julia (except Liza who won nationals). Julia bombed Jr nationals, was off the podium, and with her score at Jr worlds(and even adding the score of the spiral in the LP) she would finish behind top 10 at worlds. No single Russian lady was dominant last season, all had ups and downs. Adelina though, with all her problems, got the highest score (season best) out of them all. She was the top lady at Europeans/Worlds, which are basically the 2 competitions (alternate: 4CC) where a skater wants to skate its best. She beat Liza the last 3 times they met. When you put it this way, Adelina was better (plus, she won the SP twice at 2 big competitions: Worlds and WTT, with a score that no other Russian lady came even close: Julia barely cracker 63 for a clean SP). She didn't skate great at worlds, but she was far from bombing. If you take the entire season, you might say Liza was more consistent overall (although she really has problems with the SP). Julia on the other hand was harmed with injuries and after the 2 GP, her performances were subpar. You could make a case why Liza was the best Russian lady last season (and this might be true, she had a stand out LP at Euros, qualified to GPF and won nationals) but Julia? I can see her being the best this season, but last season was bad for her standards.

tulosai · Sep 4, 2013

gmyers said:
You are just not getting it! I am including all the skating of the entire season from gp to wtt! Saying Adelina was the best and leader of Russian girls in the 2012-2013 season is wrong. She in fact lost Russian nationals and came third there and so in Russia she was third. The best results all season were Liza Julia then Adelina. Adelina because she can't do the fs given to her didn't medal at one of her gps didn't make the gp final didn't win Russian nationals didn't win euros bombed at worlds and wtt losing free skates to Liza most of the time. She didn't win anything. Maybe when she gets a free skate she can do she Could win something but now all she does is bomb free skates.

I know it's not me you're addressing in this post but I'm responding since it was me you told about how Liza beat Adelina in the LP both times.

I didn't say Adelina was the leader. It is my strong opinion that last year there was no leader in Russia ladies and that currently, Adelina, Liza, and Julia are essentially in a neck to neck battle for the 2 Olympic spots.

What I am saying is that Adelina was not 'clearly inferior' to Liza and Julia as you claim. She was slightly below Liza in the GP and Julia was the best on the GP. All three did 'presentably' on the GP. Again, though, yes, Adelina was the worst in that segment of the season. At the Russian Nationals, Liza was ahead of Adelina. Julia wasn't present so it's impossible to conjecture how she would have placed. I could see anywhere from 1st to about 5th- possibly better than both Liza and Adelina, possibly between them, possibly lower than both, but in the mix.

Then, at Worlds and Euros, Adelina beat Liza. Again, I acknowledge, they were back to back at these events. I do not dispute Liza beat Adelina in the LP both times. However, you can't deny that Liza pretty much sat down and died in both SP's. She has a major SP issue and to think it's not a huge problem is denial. It keeps her out of the race for gold or high placements that her LP's could otherwise merit. However Adelina beat Liza at those two events she did so. They do not just skate LP's- the SP is there for a reason and is important.

At WTT, the final event of the year, Adelina soundly beat Liza. If she bombed there, it's hard to imagine how badly you must think Liza did.

I think realistically, based on momentum at the end of last season, It is 1. Adelina 2. Liza. However, the margin between them is currently so small as to be totally inconsequential and this season will tell all. Julia is currently a bit of a wildcard as she was injured for what was really the majority of last season. She might be #1, #3, or lower. Time will tell.

I'd like to add for the record that I am not a Liza or an Adelina fan. Neither do I dislike either of them. Of these three I am only even remotely a fan of Julia.

gmyers · Sep 4, 2013

tulosai said:
I know it's not me you're addressing in this post but I'm responding since it was me you told about how Liza beat Adelina in the LP both times.

I didn't say Adelina was the leader. It is my strong opinion that last year there was no leader in Russia ladies and that currently, Adelina, Liza, and Julia are essentially in a neck to neck battle for the 2 Olympic spots.

What I am saying is that Adelina was not 'clearly inferior' to Liza and Julia as you claim. She was slightly below Liza in the GP and Julia was the best on the GP. All three did 'presentably' on the GP. Again, though, yes, Adelina was the worst in that segment of the season. At the Russian Nationals, Liza was ahead of Adelina. Julia wasn't present so it's impossible to conjecture how she would have placed. I could see anywhere from 1st to about 5th- possibly better than both Liza and Adelina, possibly between them, possibly lower than both, but in the mix.

Then, at Worlds and Euros, Adelina beat Liza. Again, I acknowledge, they were back to back at these events. I do not dispute Liza beat Adelina in the LP both times. However, you can't deny that Liza pretty much sat down and died in both SP's. She has a major SP issue and to think it's not a huge problem is denial. It keeps her out of the race for gold or high placements that her LP's could otherwise merit. However Adelina beat Liza at those two events she did so. They do not just skate LP's- the SP is there for a reason and is important.

At WTT, the final event of the year, Adelina soundly beat Liza. If she bombed there, it's hard to imagine how badly you must think Liza did.

I think realistically, based on momentum at the end of last season, It is 1. Adelina 2. Liza. However, the margin between them is currently so small as to be totally inconsequential and this season will tell all. Julia is currently a bit of a wildcard as she was injured for what was really the majority of last season. She might be #1, #3, or lower. Time will tell.

I'd like to add for the record that I am not a Liza or an Adelina fan. Neither do I dislike either of them. Of these three I am only even remotely a fan of Julia.

I have never denied Liza's SP problems. I think it is almost likely that based on her SP problems she would not even qualify to be on the Euros team next year if they continue to be as horrendous as they are. At this point it is not her skating that people base her being in Sochi on but Russia sending her because Samsung is a sponsor of the Olympics and Russia wouldn't want to leave a such a big money sponsor without an athlete it is sponsoring! Same way that Adelina's biggest assets are not her skating but Tarasova being her coach! And of how much money they have spent on her! Their post Euros competitions were all disasters and even Euros showed they had no real shot at anything at worlds because Kostner beat them while doing double salchows! When I said the Russian girls in 2012-2013 should be ranked 1-Julia, 2-Liza, 3-Adelina that is not actually good for either Liza or Adelina its just ranking! The clearly inferior remark was based on Adelina's total inability to do a really respectable free skate almost the entire season! Her best one -the one nearest clean- still had a disastrous single flip and edge calls and Ur calls and was just horrible in all jump areas. She's the only one who never showed once she could do the free skate given to her! I assume that it was given to her with the thought she could do it! Popping flips, dropping combos, urs, flutz! How does a skater fix all her problems? Adelina has to work on 4 jumps, Liza needs to learn how to do a SP. And its Septmeber! At this point it should be 1-Julia and just Adelina and Liza in the same boat but all likely to be in Sochi because of Tarasova and Samsung.

gmyers · Sep 4, 2013

Mirunna said:
And your point is? Neither did Liza/Julia (except Liza who won nationals). Julia bombed Jr nationals, was off the podium, and with her score at Jr worlds(and even adding the score of the spiral in the LP) she would finish behind top 10 at worlds. No single Russian lady was dominant last season, all had ups and downs. Adelina though, with all her problems, got the highest score (season best) out of them all. She was the top lady at Europeans/Worlds, which are basically the 2 competitions (alternate: 4CC) where a skater wants to skate its best. She beat Liza the last 3 times they met. When you put it this way, Adelina was better (plus, she won the SP twice at 2 big competitions: Worlds and WTT, with a score that no other Russian lady came even close: Julia barely cracker 63 for a clean SP). She didn't skate great at worlds, but she was far from bombing. If you take the entire season, you might say Liza was more consistent overall (although she really has problems with the SP). Julia on the other hand was harmed with injuries and after the 2 GP, her performances were subpar. You could make a case why Liza was the best Russian lady last season (and this might be true, she had a stand out LP at Euros, qualified to GPF and won nationals) but Julia? I can see her being the best this season, but last season was bad for her standards.

The point was that it was said Adelina won something and she didn't!

If Julia skated the way at Jr worlds at sr worlds there is no way she wouldn't have been in the top 10! I just don't put jr and sr together without adjusting for what seniors are scored. Julia was so superior in what she did at Jr worlds to what liza and adelina did at sr worlds she totally would have outranked them both and not by a little! I also think that with the standard of Russia jr nationals in ladies that she was actually better than Liza and Adelina! The standards of Russian jr nationals ladies is so high and off the charts! Imagine if Liza and Adelina had been in that competition! LOL!. I don't doubt they wouldn't have medaled either! It really doesn't matter what Adelina's SP score is because her FS problems are so severe and overwhelming that she fell to third behind Liza and Kostner with 2 double salchows at Euros was behind liza at worlds and then even though first at WTT was not even close to being top 3 in the ladies when that event was over.

When it comes to Liza and Adelina the argument whose weaknesses are worse. LOL! That's awful but just the way things are with them. This is why neither of them might be in Sochi but the investment has been so much that it's just a matter of trying to make them justify all that was invested in them.

Li'Kitsu · Sep 4, 2013

gmyers said:
If Julia skated the way at Jr worlds at sr worlds there is no way she wouldn't have been in the top 10! I just don't put jr and sr together without adjusting for what seniors are scored. Julia was so superior in what she did at Jr worlds to what liza and adelina did at sr worlds she totally would have outranked them both and not by a little! I also think that with the standard of Russia jr nationals in ladies that she was actually better than Liza and Adelina! The standards of Russian jr nationals ladies is so high and off the charts! Imagine if Liza and Adelina had been in that competition! LOL!. I don't doubt they wouldn't have medaled either! It really doesn't matter what Adelina's SP score is because her FS problems are so severe and overwhelming that she fell to third behind Liza and Kostner with 2 double salchows at Euros was behind liza at worlds and then even though first at WTT was not even close to being top 3 in the ladies when that event was over.

When it comes to Liza and Adelina the argument whose weaknesses are worse. LOL! That's awful but just the way things are with them. This is why neither of them might be in Sochi but the investment has been so much that it's just a matter of trying to make them justify all that was invested in them.

And you wondered why I called you disrespectful yourself when you played the disgusted because of FlattFans remark about Julia? *cough* LOL! *cough*
Your hysteria with how supposedly bad those two girls are is plain weird. Oh my, so Adelina's best free skate still had somthing like an egde call? God, you'll find like 3 clean free skates without any egde calls from the whole ladies field combined! Yes, Adelina does have technical issues, but that's how it is. Time will show if she can overcome them. But that's nothing she owe's you, so if you hate her so much, how about just letting it go already?

Besides... Julia would have been scored higher at senior worlds than at junior worlds? Is that a another joke? She would have been compared to way better skaters than, how would that make her marks rise? Well, it very likely wouldn't.

drivingmissdaisy · Sep 4, 2013

Li'Kitsu said:
Besides... Julia would have been scored higher at senior worlds than at junior worlds? Is that a another joke? She would have been compared to way better skaters than, how would that make her marks rise? Well, it very likely wouldn't.

I think Julia's scores would have dropped significantly in PCS and GOE if her skating were compared to Yuna and Carolina in the same event. Julia has zero personality on the ice, has admitted she doesn't even try to be artistic, does small jumps, and executes hyper-flexibility moves that do not relate at all to the music. I do not understand why anyone would think she is the favorite for the Olympic team over Adelina and Liza, who are more artistic, faster, and able to interpret music.

tulosai · Sep 4, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
I think Julia's scores would have dropped significantly in PCS and GOE if her skating were compared to Yuna and Carolina in the same event. Julia has zero personality on the ice, has admitted she doesn't even try to be artistic, does small jumps, and executes hyper-flexibility moves that do not relate at all to the music. I do not understand why anyone would think she is the favorite for the Olympic team over Adelina and Liza, who are more artistic, faster, and able to interpret music.

The not trying artistically thing was a bit of mistranslated I thought. I also have heard Julia is FAST in person (though I'll get to see for myself at Skate Canada!). However, I agree with your main point- her scores would have dropped.

gmyers · Sep 4, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
I think Julia's scores would have dropped significantly in PCS and GOE if her skating were compared to Yuna and Carolina in the same event. Julia has zero personality on the ice, has admitted she doesn't even try to be artistic, does small jumps, and executes hyper-flexibility moves that do not relate at all to the music. I do not understand why anyone would think she is the favorite for the Olympic team over Adelina and Liza, who are more artistic, faster, and able to interpret music.

She said didn't train to music all the time. She puts on music when she works on step sequences. But it's not on when she's doing jumps and stuff like Sergei Voronov. She was comparing herself when Voronov always has the music on no matter what he's doing!

Because they can't jump in SP's Liza or jump in free skates Adelina!!! That is why! I am not talking about small flaws either! Huge ones. The issue of Julia's jumps size is totally irrelevant when she can do them more consistently than Liza and Adelina put together!

Li'Kitsu said:
And you wondered why I called you disrespectful yourself when you played the disgusted because of FlattFans remark about Julia? *cough* LOL! *cough*
Your hysteria with how supposedly bad those two girls are is plain weird. Oh my, so Adelina's best free skate still had somthing like an egde call? God, you'll find like 3 clean free skates without any egde calls from the whole ladies field combined! Yes, Adelina does have technical issues, but that's how it is. Time will show if she can overcome them. But that's nothing she owe's you, so if you hate her so much, how about just letting it go already?

Besides... Julia would have been scored higher at senior worlds than at junior worlds? Is that a another joke? She would have been compared to way better skaters than, how would that make her marks rise? Well, it very likely wouldn't.

This is not comparing to animals! This is discussing their skating and results? Yes I believe Julia would have scored higher than Adelina and Liza and how could she have not have been? LOL! If anything Julia is like Gold.

Adelina's best has Flutz ur combo popped flip! Ur call edge call single jump! I mean seriously!

silverlake22 · Sep 5, 2013

Bear in mind that Lipnitskaya only beat Pogorilaya by 5 points at JW, and Pogorilaya did not even skate that well. Her PCS cushion was like 2 points in the FS, not much at all. Most people say that Pogorilaya will not do well in senior events because her PCS will be low, given that and that at the same event Lipnitskaya only beat her by 5 points and had only a slim advantage in PCS, I don't think her scores for her JW performances at Senior Worlds would have been that high. Maybe higher than Sot's FS and about equal to Tuk, slightly higher at most, but unlikely to surpass Gold (who I felt was overscored in the FS at Worlds, even though I thought in the SP she was maybe a bit undescored) or Li. With similar mistakes Lipnitskaya was unable to surpass Radionova for the JW crown. I still think she can beat Sot or Tuk at Nats because they were both hot messes jump wise last season and things don't look too rosy in that department right now either, but I think her PCS will be lower than either of them just because of reputation and such, plus Sotnikova is a Federation pet and maybe Tuktamysheva as well so the results of RN will probably be decided before the event takes place and one of them will really have to tank for someone else to get on the team, which is sad as I totally think Lipnitskaya will DESERVE to make the team, regardless of if she actually does or not...

gmyers · Sep 5, 2013

I just looked at how pogorilaya performed at jr worlds and I wish Liza and Adelina did her jumping! Losing to Elena and Julia was not a sign of weakness! You are talking about Elena and Julia! It's like when Julia didn't medal at jr nationals! But she would raise her level and then almost win jr worlds. It's true though that the team will be Liza and Adelina and nothing will be able to change that at all and when they are in Sochi I wouldn't assume it's because they had beaten Julia or Anna or anyone.

Mirunna · Sep 5, 2013

silverlake22 said:
plus Sotnikova is a Federation pet and maybe Tuktamysheva as well so the results of RN will probably be decided before the event takes place and one of them will really have to tank for someone else to get on the team, which is sad as I totally think Lipnitskaya will DESERVE to make the team, regardless of if she actually does or not...

I really don't get this. Why is Sotnikova the "Federation pet"? Because she was the first Russian youngstar to be proclaimed the next Olympic champion and because of the hype? I am asking because I don't remember a single event/competition in which she was favored over another Russian lady who skated better, nationally or internationally. She even lost on PCS to Liza In the SP at the last nationals. Why would the Fed send her to Sochi if she will be a hot mess?
Maybe they invest to much time and energy in her because they know that out of all their ladies, if all skate clean, Adelina is the only one that has the slightest chance to medal. But that doesn't mean she'll get to go anyway, I am sure she'll have to earn her place. As for Liza, she finished way behind the podium at nationals in the season she won both her GP events in her Sr debut, no favoritism what so ever.

gmyers · Sep 5, 2013

Tarasova gets involved with all the skaters in Russia but kovtun and sotnikova are her main focus and I seriously would doubt that she wouldn't get her to Sochi! Look at what she did for kovtun! Using jrgpf results to get him to euros and then to worlds! Only one blocking him from the Olympics is plushenko! Then with sotnikova her names on everything she does! She Could probably use her 2013 euros performance to get her on the Olympic team!

sky_fly20 · Sep 5, 2013

silverlake22 said:
Bear in mind that Lipnitskaya only beat Pogorilaya by 5 points at JW, and Pogorilaya did not even skate that well. Her PCS cushion was like 2 points in the FS, not much at all. Most people say that Pogorilaya will not do well in senior events because her PCS will be low, given that and that at the same event Lipnitskaya only beat her by 5 points and had only a slim advantage in PCS

Can we just stop hyping Pogorilaya
she is like Shelepen 2.0 maybe with just a bit higher PCS and a bit more consistent

FSGMT · Sep 5, 2013

sky_fly20 said:
Can we just stop hyping Pogorilaya
she is like Shelepen 2.0 maybe with just a bit higher PCS and a bit more consistent

Well, I actually like Shelepen :biggrin:

sky_fly20 · Sep 5, 2013

If all perform well they should also consider who is very much
known and liked in Russia:

Julia is the most well known followed by Adelina in Russia, Tuk comes a distant third believe it or not

many young skaters look up to Julia and have her as their ideal skater
though Julia herself mentions Adelina and Carolina as her ideal skaters
with their powerful presentation and big jumps

I'm sure these two will get huge home crowd support in Sochi

2013 - 2014 Russian skaters, rules, and events

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