Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 99

Thread: Prosecutor throws out Plushenko slander complaint

  1. #46
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I accept that his injury was legitimate and I've stated that many times. But as per what I said, in the event that it wasn't legitimate (it's not like skaters ever have an image to maintain and tell the media one thing while the actual situation is different...), it seems plausible that he would pull out, given the situation he was in -- he was in a position with almost no chance of winning (and ultimately, no chance, given Fernandez's skate), he would have to fight for bronze and risk being off the podium for the first time in a long while, and would have risked losing to inferior skaters including his own countrymen (I don't think losing to Voronov/Kovtun would have helped his Sochi bid), and being already plagued by injuries there was no point risking his health just to make the podium.

    If a guy who is so accustomed to winning all of a sudden bombs his SP (it's been ages since he was 6th after an SP), while several guys actually have a good SP (unlike Euros 2012) putting him 15 points behind the leader, and then he pulls out of the competition... don't you think the thought might cross one's mind that he backed out because he was too far behind (and likely didn't want to be perceived as vulnerable/beatable)?

    We'll never know, but I wonder if he had skated clean and was leading after the SP, or if the other guys all bombed and he was at least still in contention, if he would have done the FS or still pulled out? I would imagine he would have done the FS because he wouldn't have competed in the first place if he hadn't felt that he could skate both an SP and FS, and with a competitive level of performance. And the other question is, if he was healthy enough, would he have still competed in the FS from 6th position knowing he would likely be beaten by Fernandez and/or Amodio and possibly even pushed off the podium for the first time in years? As Mathman said, he likely gave it an old college try... it didn't work out, and rather than risking his health to fight for bronze, he pulled out.
    You are partly right about one thing, if Plushenko was leading in SP, it is possible that he would stay to compete LP. Since he would not consider his status is that bad to not to land triple jumps. Since with only shaking triples no one can lead in SP, am I correct? If the case as you suggested him leading in SP, he would continue with LP, with his injury, he might bomb that one and completely destroyed his body. Maybe that is what you want to see with no "skeptical" opinion.

    His training was not OK before EC, but certainly he did not think it was so bad that he lost even his triple jumps. Under such circumstances, you are right about pulling out because he has no chance to medal, but that is based on his body cannot take it to finish LP. Maybe in your eyes, could not perform LP is the same as "seeing no hope to medal, therefore pulling out of competition" are the same thing, but they gave people completely different message. The former means he has to pulled out because he is too injured to compete, the latter means he is coward not evening want to fight.

    My English is not good, so I hope you understand what I want to express.

  2. #47
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,864
    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    You are partly right about one thing, if Plushenko was leading in SP, it is possible that he would stay to compete LP. Since he would not consider his status is that bad to not to land triple jumps. Since with only shaking triples no one can lead in SP, am I correct? If the case as you suggested him leading in SP, he would continue with LP, with his injury, he might bomb that one and completely destroyed his body. Maybe that is what you want to see with no "skeptical" opinion.

    His training was not OK before EC, but certainly he did not think it was so bad that he lost even his triple jumps. Under such circumstances, you are right about pulling out because he has no chance to medal, but that is based on his body cannot take it to finish LP. Maybe in your eyes, could not perform LP is the same as "seeing no hope to medal, therefore pulling out of competition" are the same thing, but they gave people completely different message. The former means he has to pulled out because he is too injured to compete, the latter means he is coward not evening want to fight.

    My English is not good, so I hope you understand what I want to express.
    I think he was too injured to fight, but also he realised he was in a poor position, so it made sense not to further injure himself. We all know that skating is about reputation and if you're as successful/winning as consistently as Plushenko, you have a standard. He probably felt that he could not perform to his standard with the injury, but I'm betting him and his camp figured that it wouldn't do his reputation any good if he lost to Brezina/Amodio/Fernandez or Voronov/Kovtun (and perhaps compromising his position as the #1 Russian man).

    I'm thinking he competed with the anticipation of at least making the podium, and clearly with an easier SP he was hoping for the others to bomb like at Euros 2012... unfortunately for him, not only did he bomb his SP, the other guys actually skated excellent SPs with greater difficulty. I think if the gap was closer, he would have tried to fight in the FS, but with two skaters 14 and 15 points ahead and an injury already nagging him, it made the most sense to pull out rather than get so thoroughly defeated and/or injure himself further in the process. It's ridiculous though how people still use Euro 2012 results though to say Plushenko is better than Fernandez, when he would have lost Euros 2013 to Fernandez no matter how good his FS was, and he likely would have been 3rd or worse for the first time in ages which would be quite a damaging blow as far as his standards/reputation go.

  3. #48
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    3,616
    I don't understand why it's so hard for you to acknowledge 2005 worlds and his placement in the sp there and his withdrawal from that. Competing injured to the point he pulls out after a bad sp and then going immediately to surgery to fix the problem has now happened twice. So he has a pattern that matches the patterns of other skaters like czisny and flatt and others and it has been said over and over but nothing is getting through ever and so t must be posted over and over and over and over what the facts are and what the truth is. Unfortunately this disc replacement may be the end.

  4. #49
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,084
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think he was too injured to fight, but also he realised he was in a poor position, so it made sense not to further injure himself. We all know that skating is about reputation and if you're as successful/winning as consistently as Plushenko, you have a standard. He probably felt that he could not perform to his standard with the injury, but I'm betting him and his camp figured that it wouldn't do his reputation any good if he lost to Brezina/Amodio/Fernandez or Voronov/Kovtun (and perhaps compromising his position as the #1 Russian man).
    The reason that your posts on this topic are making Plushenko fans mad is that you are painting a picture of someone who is timidly afraid of competition and more interested in dipping and dodging – ooo, will my rep with the judges go down if I lose to Amodio? – than in skating.

    We have no way of reading Plushenko’s mind, and making guesses from afar – maybe he was thinking about this, maybe he was calculating the odds of that – is no more than idle speculation.

    Heros charge into the fray with abandon, cannon to the left of them, cannon to the right of them, masters of their fate, bloody but unbowed. The suggestion that Plushenko gave up the fight merely because he realized he couldn’t win – that’s not a hero, that’s a wimp. Nobody wants to hear that!

  5. #50
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,864
    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    I don't understand why it's so hard for you to acknowledge 2005 worlds and his placement in the sp there and his withdrawal from that. Competing injured to the point he pulls out after a bad sp and then going immediately to surgery to fix the problem has now happened twice. So he has a pattern that matches the patterns of other skaters like czisny and flatt and others and it has been said over and over but nothing is getting through ever and so t must be posted over and over and over and over what the facts are and what the truth is. Unfortunately this disc replacement may be the end.
    I do acknowledge 2005 Worlds and that he withdrew due to injury. I acknowledge he withdrew from 2013 Euros due to injury. Two times he's withdrawn after a poor SP... and IIRC he's never withdrawn after leading or almost leading an SP. I'm not saying he's wimping out, but when you pull out after a poor standing due to injury, it's questionable as to why you competed in the first place. Unless his strategy is to compete, in spite of injury, and if he has a shot at winning after the SP he'll skate the FS, but if he doesn't he takes care of his body and doesn't try to forge on and risk a substandard result at expense to his body.

    But my issue before was people asserting that he had a poor SP due to his injury.... these are Plushenko's quotes after the SP:

    “It wasn’t a magic day today,” Plushenko observed. “I fell on the triple Axel. Maybe I rushed it, maybe I wasn’t completely focused. When we got here to the ice rink, we decided not to go for the quad toe but for the triple Lutz instead, and maybe I didn’t fully switch my focus. The fall on the triple Axel is an unforgivable mistake for me,” the three-time Olympic medalist told the press. “It wasn’t the injury, it wasn’t my back. I missed an easy element for me. I need to do the triple Axel with my eyes closed.”

    So there you have it. His own words admitted that his fall was a miss, and not attributed to injury. I actually laud him for admitting that he faltered, potentially due to focus or rushing the takeoff, when it would have been easy to blame injury... so I'm not sure why his fans are so adamant that his errors were due to injury.

    As for the topic of the thread, I still maintain that Zhurankov's mistaken quotes were not deliberate attempts to discredit and slander Plushenko, even though it certainly came out that way. When an athlete that's used to winning (keep in mind by 2013 his standard and accolades were much greater than in 2005) has minimal chance of winning, and then withdraws, there will be skepticism as to the nature of their withdrawal -- and Zhurankov was stupid enough to voice his without accurate sources (heck, maybe not even any sources).

  6. #51
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    3,616
    So youre only really injured if you pull Out after winning an sp! lol give me a break. Like that is the only time plushenko commented on what wrong after the euros sp. There are other interviews including before and after the spinal disc rePlacement where he mentioned injuries. So you only want to go by one interview where he says It wasn't injury but ignore the ones around his spinal disc replacement surgery. Where he mentioned something happening during the lutz or it was mishin? Anyway there are other media outlets to get plushenko quotes and the facts. I also don't see why you view a skating world where skaters either compete totally healthy or don't compete if their not. How many times so people have to mention czisny and flatt and I also thought of voronov who went to a gp knowing his foot wasn't good enough to skate and withdrew during the sp? It was just a few seasons ago.

  7. #52
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    256
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think he was too injured to fight, but also he realised he was in a poor position, so it made sense not to further injure himself. We all know that skating is about reputation and if you're as successful/winning as consistently as Plushenko, you have a standard. He probably felt that he could not perform to his standard with the injury, but I'm betting him and his camp figured that it wouldn't do his reputation any good if he lost to Brezina/Amodio/Fernandez or Voronov/Kovtun (and perhaps compromising his position as the #1 Russian man).
    Oh......
    You are doing that look like a anti-fan. which you have claimed is "because he was afraid about the bad results that can affect his reputation badly, he exaggerated his injury", without any evidence, right? It is close to slander.

  8. #53
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,084
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    As for the topic of the thread, I still maintain that Zhurankov's mistaken quotes were not deliberate attempts to discredit and slander Plushenko...
    I do not see how you can be so firm in this conviction, since there is no possibility of acquiring any evidence to support or refute it. We cannot, after all, read Zhurankov's mind, although we seem to be observing open season on reading Plushenko's.

    Giving Zhurankov the benefit of the doubt is a kind-hearted and optimistic impulse. Still, it wouldn't hurt the guy to say, "Sorry, my bad, I got the facts about the operation wrong." Then Plushenko could drop the suit, his honor upheld, and off we go to Sochi.

  9. #54
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I do not see how you can be so firm in this conviction, since there is no possibility of acquiring any evidence to support or refute it. We cannot, after all, read Zhurankov's mind, although we seem to be observing open season on reading Plushenko's.

    Giving Zhurankov the benefit of the doubt is a kind-hearted and optimistic impulse. Still, it wouldn't hurt the guy to say, "Sorry, my bad, I got the facts about the operation wrong." Then Plushenko could drop the suit, his honor upheld, and off we go to Sochi.
    Zhurankov watched the news about Plushenko's operation etc. from Channel 1, he deliberately ignore that by claiming "why only channel 1 got the interview not other media". In Channel 1's news they shown Plushenko slowly walked around hospital with stuff (blood bag or something) on his body. And the doctor who performed the operation gave interview explained the procedure and the condition for Plushenko's disc before the operation. What is more Zhurankov wants to be confirmed that Plushenko had a surgery?

    Later in his interview, he said himself that he deliberately said those things during broadcasting to bait Plushenko. It is not purely "I got the facts wrong", it is "I got the facts but I only believe in gossip and my imagination".

    As for the other comments on "hero" image, it is not that. If Plushenko cannot pull out triples, why he should consider continuing and falls all over the places in LP? It is not strategy anymore, it is simply mission impossible. People with logic can deduce that fact. And yes, Plushenko is afraid of embarrassing himself by performing a routine with only doubles (he said it back in 2012 I think). And probably doubles were the only things he could pull out if he continues, BECAUSE HE IS TOO INJURED.

  10. #55
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    2,403
    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    I don't understand why it's so hard for you to acknowledge 2005 worlds and his placement in the sp there and his withdrawal from that.
    Plushenko's 2005 withdrawal drew vintage Cinquanta remark: I would have put him out there in his pajamas.

  11. #56
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    The Brink of Insanity
    Posts
    667
    Off topic, but Bill Maher saying that Donald Trump is the product of his mother mating with an orangutang is insulting to the orangutang.

  12. #57
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    3,559
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The reason that your posts on this topic are making Plushenko fans mad is that you are painting a picture of someone who is timidly afraid of competition and more interested in dipping and dodging – ooo, will my rep with the judges go down if I lose to Amodio? – than in skating.
    I believe the reputation in skating IS important, got the impression that e.g. Slutskaya lost some reputation by losing to Asada in GPF before the Olympics. To lose to a younger skater is not good (just remembering the words of Ilia Kulik in some old interview).

  13. #58
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,084
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    I believe the reputation in skating IS important, got the impression that e.g. Slutskaya lost some reputation by losing to Asada in GPF before the Olympics. To lose to a younger skater is not good (just remembering the words of Ilia Kulik in some old interview).
    Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I don't think Slutskaya was afraid to compete against Asada and I don't think Plushenko was afraid to compete against Amodio and Fernandez. IMHO Plushenko withdrew because his injuries prevented him from skating his best, not because he was fearful of losing reputation points.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-29-2013 at 01:44 PM.

  14. #59
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    The Brink of Insanity
    Posts
    667
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    I believe the reputation in skating IS important, got the impression that e.g. Slutskaya lost some reputation by losing to Asada in GPF before the Olympics. To lose to a younger skater is not good (just remembering the words of Ilia Kulik in some old interview).
    I strongly disagree. I think "reputation" is grossly overrated by the fans. Every time someone says a skater won on "reputation", I can see where the winning skater was better, even with errors, than the less experienced skater. What fans call "reputation" is often ease of movement, speed, flow, ice coverage, and a more mature, polished presentation.

    People used to say that Plushenko won on reputation but even though I don't like his programs at all, I would argue that he was sooooo much better than everyone else in the things that matter, that even when not at his best, his speed, flow, and power was head and shoulders above the rest of the field. His only real competition was Yagudin, and once Yags was gone, Plushenko could win on cruise control, he was just that good.

  15. #60
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    2,188
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    don't you think the thought might cross one's mind that he backed out because he was too far behind?
    It depends on the mind. Some minds are sick, with the desperate desire to speak ill about anyone and anything. These minds say, like you did, Joubert might be gay because he sued someone who said he was gay, instead of laughing it off. Some minds are full of trust and honour. Those minds don't lie and are ready to sue someone who lies about them. At the end of the day it all depends on the mind. You judge people by yourself, by your society. For you and for Skate Canada lie and cheat is a normal way to do things. So you think others do the same. But I assure you there is a world beyond this mysery.
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Duma establishes and approves the bill. And Putin is the one who signs the bill into law (it's a grossly incorrect statement to say he has "no power to reinstate laws" when it is by HIS power/authority/signature that such laws are enacted or re-instated).

    Moscow Times, July 31, 2012 (Iss.4938) http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...aw/462888.html
    http://rapsinews.com/legislation_new...263996789.html
    http://uncut.indexoncensorship.org/2...amation-crime/
    http://jurist.org/paperchase/2012/07...nd-slander.php

    And attributing to Duma is ridiculous in the first place because they're notoriously pro-Putin anyways. It's not like they would ever push his agenda or anything.
    Who are trying to troll here? Me? Nice try. Here we go. You said "by Putin." Putin alone has no power to reinstate laws. Russian legislation doesn't operate the term "bill". The parliament adopt federal laws, not some bills. Why do you always bring your local crap into other realities? That's stupid to say the least. Then President signs it during 14 days. If he due to whatever reasons refuses to do that, then the law goes back to the parliament and the procedure starts again from zero. If the parliament still insists on the adopted law and has 2/3 votes of that, then the President signs the said law within 7 days and cannot say "no." So, the function of Putin when it comes to federal laws is to sign them and make them public. And nothing else. He is not the one who adopts them. It's the power of the parliament, the principle that was established centuries ago in the Ancient World- to divide executive power, law-making power and court power into separate divisions. What a shame they didn't teach it at your school. But now you now.

    What do you mean by Duma is pro-something? Duma was elected directly by people. They chose who they chose. You want to rant on it- the politics forum is next door.

    And what can be funnier than to bring an English library on Russian news to a Russian speaker. Thanks for the laugh.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I still maintain that Zhurankov's mistaken quotes were not deliberate attempts to discredit and slander Plushenko, even though it certainly came out that way. When an athlete that's used to winning (keep in mind by 2013 his standard and accolades were much greater than in 2005) has minimal chance of winning, and then withdraws, there will be skepticism as to the nature of their withdrawal -- and Zhurankov was stupid enough to voice his without accurate sources (heck, maybe not even any sources).
    Incorrect again. You don't speak Russian. You don't now and you can't know what Zhurankov said. Or you do know from previous threads but just trolling as usual for the sake of it. Zhurankov said nothing about Euro-2013. Zero. All his reference was about PR work, that Plu has a scandalious life full of show business people and the operaion was fake just like one PR trick. Euro wasn't even mentioned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The reason that your posts on this topic are making Plushenko fans mad is that you are painting a picture of someone who is timidly afraid of competition and more interested in dipping and dodging – ooo, will my rep with the judges go down if I lose to Amodio? – than in skating.
    I think you are completely incorrect on this one. First, I don't see who is angry. We keep the guy busy. We are doing our work of typing the same stuff over and over again in replies to his rants on topics where he has no knowledge, no expertise and possess no facts. Plu fans don't normally push "report" button on Plu threads. It's not our style. Think for a second if he "moves" into other threads with his unlimited desire to rant on anything where posters would have different reaction. You would get more than really busy. And you said you don't like to work. So, Plu fans make you happy by keepping the guy within this cyber asylum. Don't worry. No one is angry. We are fine.

Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •