Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

jenaj · May 30, 2013

Mathman said:
The reason that I list Yuna Kim alone as a two-fer among active skaters is this. Her CoP programs are 6.0 programs. IMHO her performance of Les Miz at 2013 worlds, just as it was, would have beat any ladies’ LP ever, CoP or 6.0, including herself at 2010 Olympics.

I have to make the case for Michelle's 7-triple Red Violin program at 2000 Worlds. And not only on tech. Her second mark in this program (and in many other programs) would beat Yu Na here.

ETA: I don't think her Les Mis program at Worlds is better than her 2010 Oly LP, either. In many ways, they are the same program, in terms of content (with a few adjustments for the changes in scoring). But her 2010 program had better music and, in my opinion, better artistry.
I think Yu Na's best program, and best performance, was her LP at 2011 Worlds. Unfortunately, she made mistakes on several of her jumps that kept it from being among her best technically. But her footwork, the placement of the spiral and the overall choreography were all superb. Skated without mistakes, it would have had a few 6.0s for presentation under the old system, I think.

venlac · May 30, 2013

Mathman said:
The reason that I list Yuna Kim alone as a two-fer among active skaters is this. Her CoP programs are 6.0 programs. IMHO her performance of Les Miz at 2013 worlds, just as it was, would have beat any ladies’ LP ever, CoP or 6.0, including herself at 2010 Olympics. Looking at the protocols, she won almost entirely on GOE. Her total GOEs were an insurmountable 16.51, compared to 4.59 for Kostner and 3.66 for Asada.

That is not total GOE, only FS's GOE.

It's unfair to compare GOE between clean skate and messed skate or skate with several mistakes.

Kim had clean program.
carolina kostner did totally messed program, Usually she don't receive GOE like that. Although she still beat Asada in GOE.
For Asada, she got UR on 3flip, popped 3T.

SkateSkates · May 30, 2013

I think under 6.0 the gap between Mao and Yuna would be smaller. Since slightly UR jumps weren't an issue, Asada would have gotten more credit for what she put out (especially in the last few seasons once she started consistently URing her jumps). Also, she wouldn't have tried to fix her flutz, which was actually a nice, high, and usually rotated jump for her through the 08 season when they introduced the "e".

I also think Wagner would be doing even better in these past two seasons due to her ability to put out 2-clean programs back to back. Unfortunately, I don't think Kostner would fare as well as Mao, Yuna, and Wagner because of her tendency to make mistakes. However, it is hard to speculate because if the emphasis was on skating a clean program rather than counting distorted revolutions of spins, etc., we may be seeing cleaner programs overall. Who knows.

Someone else who was fairly dominant in both systems was Lambiel. (Lambiel would be great under any system, though...)

skatel80 · May 30, 2013

I think Midori Ito and Kristi yamaguchi would do very well under cop, I don't think midori underrotated anything ever! and her jump goes would have been huge ( great height, difficult entries, huge speed all of which would negate the leg wrap which wasn't as severe as say nakanos) plus she could put a 3t on the end of anything! she was also a strong spinner who could have adapted to cop spinning requirements. Kristi had a 3lz+3t and was also a strong spinner. Under cop Kristi could have skipped the 3sal which she basically always missed.
Kim and Asada would have done very well under 6.0 aswell. I have never been a fan of Kims but the quality and difficulty of her skating is undeniable. Asada wouldn't have problems with the slight urs especially on the +3lo combos.
Charlene Wong said something in the manleywoman skatecast that has stuck with me, It doesn't matter what system you skate under, good skating is good skating

I think this applies to this thread

plushyfan · May 30, 2013

Lambiel competed under the 6.0 system. His first senior season was 2001/2002, he was at SLC.

drivingmissdaisy · May 30, 2013

Mathman said:
The reason that I list Yuna Kim alone as a two-fer among active skaters is this. Her CoP programs are 6.0 programs. IMHO her performance of Les Miz at 2013 worlds, just as it was, would have beat any ladies’ LP ever, CoP or 6.0, including herself at 2010 Olympics.

No way would that have beaten Midori Ito's 1990 Worlds LP, to me the best performance ever (although she didn't win). Yuna could not pull 6.0's on technical merit with 6 triples next to Midori. I also think Kwan's 2001 Worlds LP would have surpassed Yuna, 7 triples vs 6 and the US being a much more influential fed than S Korea. 6.0 was much more about quantity that quality.

drivingmissdaisy · May 30, 2013

Mathman said:
I think she would have been competitive as is. Her huge triple-Lutz/triple toe and her double Axel combinations would have made up for the lack of a triple loop. But, yeah, she would need the triple loop to dominate.

2A combinations were not really done during the Kwan era because they aren't nearly as difficult as 3/3's, so I don't think she would have been rewarded much for them. It's a peculiarity of the current scoring system that has popularized 2A combinations, not because they are difficult.

venlac · May 30, 2013

SkateSkates said:
I think under 6.0 the gap between Mao and Yuna would be smaller. Since slightly UR jumps weren't an issue, Asada would have gotten more credit for what she put out (especially in the last few seasons once she started consistently URing her jumps). Also, she wouldn't have tried to fix her flutz, which was actually a nice, high, and usually rotated jump for her through the 08 season when they introduced the "e"

Mao have been had much less consistency than kim, even besides URs
In 6.0, flawless/cleaner programs were important

She didnt had many cleaner programs
To be fair, isn't it?

MiRé · May 30, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
No way would that have beaten Midori Ito's 1990 Worlds LP, to me the best performance ever (although she didn't win). Yuna could not pull 6.0's on technical merit with 6 triples next to Midori. I also think Kwan's 2001 Worlds LP would have surpassed Yuna, 7 triples vs 6 and the US being a much more influential fed than S Korea. 6.0 was much more about quantity that quality.

But Kim would've landed loop if she was competing in 6.0. She's currently not doing loop because she doesn't have to (although there can be a debate on whether she is not doing them vs she can't do them). I still remember her landing a delayed, fully rotated triple loop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgaFOHnlAjs). Knowing how Yuna is extremely competitive, if she had to land loop to win, I think she would've executed them.

drivingmissdaisy · May 30, 2013

Melon said:
But Kim would've landed loop if she was competing in 6.0. She's currently not doing loop because she doesn't have to (although there can be a debate on whether she is not doing them vs she can't do them). I still remember her landing a delayed, fully rotated triple loop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgaFOHnlAjs). Knowing how Yuna is extremely competitive, if she had to land loop to win, I think she would've executed them.

Maybe, but we don't know for sure especially because a lot of skaters have one problem jump. In the 1995 WC Surya landed 7 triples (many of them shaky) to Chen Lu's 6, yet was beaten by a 5-4 margin by the judging panel. In 1994 Surya had an UR 3T on her 3/3 and a very wild landing on a 3R yet still almost beat a clean Yuka Sato, who was a better skater by a large margin. Against a clean 7-triple Michelle with a 3/3, Yuna would HAVE to land a 3R to win that match-up. For Surya to lose narrowly to much better skaters simply by landing more, and not higher quality, triples shows that under 6.0 you had to have the full range of jumps.

drivingmissdaisy · May 30, 2013

emdee said:
Patrick chan.
He has shown his mettle on IJS.

With his beautiful skating skills he could easily dominate 6.0

He would have to not fall. Clean programs trumped good skating under 6.0.

torren · May 30, 2013

Patrick Chan and Carolina Kostner should not be even considered.
They are typical IJS skaters.

emdee · May 30, 2013

The question is
Who CAN dominate.....

FlattFan · May 30, 2013

Mathman said:
The reason that I list Yuna Kim alone as a two-fer among active skaters is this. Her CoP programs are 6.0 programs. IMHO her performance of Les Miz at 2013 worlds, just as it was, would have beat any ladies’ LP ever, CoP or 6.0, including herself at 2010 Olympics.

No!
Her Les Miz would not beat any of Midori's LPs in 1988, 1989, 1990. Not to mention a bunch of GP events.
I don't think she can beat Shiz in 2004 either.
A few of Michelle's 7 triples LPs would beat her in both tech and artistic.

Best ever? Hardly. Best this year, of course.

venlac · May 30, 2013

yes kim is really nothing, she dont even do 7 triples, also she have wrong edge 3F, dont do 3R etc. Of course, her artistry is nowhere near to Ito midori or Michelle. her all programs were weaker than Michelle's or Midori's all programs, in artistry and technically. how bad...
I think many people were refuted Mathman's post enough. now I want to talk about other skaters

Cherryy · May 30, 2013

I don't know about Kim beating Kwan, but Midori Ito would surely do extremely well under IJS. She would be getting the biggest GOE's on her jumps out of all ladies, she wouldn't be penalized for figures. Btw, she actually does, she won Masters Elite this year in Oberstdorf

.
I also think Mao would somehow benefit from 6.0, because she wouldn't be penalized for URs and wrong edges but on the other hand I don't know if the lack of consistency woudn't hurt her.

drivingmissdaisy · May 30, 2013

emdee said:
The question is
Who CAN dominate.....

Well, he could never dominate under 6.0 because he falls too much. He would not win any major titles with multiple falls in the LP. I suppose a hypothetical skater who skates like Chan but doesn't fall could do well, but that isn't Patrick.

It's like saying Ekaterina Goordeeva could dominate Women's Singles because she skates well, ignoring the fact she doesn't do all the triple jumps.

emdee · May 30, 2013

My contention is that Chan would fall less without the strictures of COP.

venlac · May 30, 2013

emdee said:
My contention is that Chan would fall less without the strictures of COP.

But that theory is apply to almost all skaters in COP.
almost all skaters in COP might be more comfortable/consistent with less difficult contents under 6.0.

Mathman · May 30, 2013

emdee said:
My contention is that Chan would fall less without the strictures of COP.

To me, the difficulty in guessing what kind of a 6.0 skater Patrick might have been is this: The things that Patrick is most amazing at, those are exactly the things that the CoP brings to the fore and were not greatly valued under 6.0 (transitions, blade work).

Under 6.0 he might have fallen less, but by the same token he might not have worked to develop his eye-popping edge skills.

Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

jenaj

venlac

SkateSkates

skatel80

plushyfan

drivingmissdaisy

drivingmissdaisy

venlac

MiRé

Match Penalty

drivingmissdaisy

drivingmissdaisy

torren

emdee

FlattFan

Match Penalty

venlac

Cherryy

drivingmissdaisy

emdee

venlac

Mathman

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