Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

venlac · Jun 12, 2013

kwanatic said:
I didn't say "never" +3...just that I didn't think anything she did that night was worth +3.

To answer your question, as far as execution goes I suppose that would be a fair assessment that those elements were of similar quality to Yu-Na's jumps. A direct comparison is much easier. Yu-Na didn't have a 2A-3T in her program and hasn't had one since 2010 so it's tough to make a direct comparison; however, I don't think that would change my opinion of giving Mao +2. I gave you a comparison of Carolina's lutz to Yu-Na's...

Did that answer your question?

Ok. Thank you. I have no more to say for you about it :no:

kwanatic said:
You know Yu-Na was never really known for having perfect programs.
She'd have a small mistake here or there but she usually had either a cushion from the SP or enough firepower in the FS to make up for it.

So which top skater was known for always having perfect programs? or usually have less mistakes than Yu-Na;in other words, which top skaters were more consistent than her?
As you have said, she usually have a small mistakes, and she had have less mistakes than her competitors.(except 06-07 season). Which top skaters have usually small mistakes as well as her?

venlac · Jun 12, 2013

jenaj said:
Look at Yu Na's GOEs here. http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2008/WC08_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Has she really gotten that much better or has judging gotten easier?

compare 2008 Worlds with 2013 worlds? Yu-Na's FS at 2008 worlds. http://youtu.be/hwgqIso3ZEs
In that competition, she had a serious injury, She said that she had considered to withdraw from the competition. she landed her jumps very hard.
and I know that the judges in 2008 World was known very harsh to her, for her fans. for success jumps, she received similar GOE with Mao, and lower GOE than carolina. when her score was announced, crowd was booed

And at that time, judges trend was harsh in GOE than now.

jenaj · Jun 12, 2013

venlac said:
compare 2008 Worlds with 2013 worlds? Yu-Na's FS at 2008 worlds. http://youtu.be/hwgqIso3ZEs
In that competition, she had a serious injury, She said that she had considered to withdraw from the competition. she landed her jumps very hard.
and I know that the judges in 2008 World was known very harsh to her, for her fans. for success jumps, she received similar GOE with Mao, and lower GOE than carolina. when her score was announced, crowd was booed

And at that time, judges trend was harsh in GOE than now.

Her 3-3 and 3Lz looked just the same in 2008 as they did in 2013. But assuming her injury affected the jumps she completed, here are her GOEs in 2009, when she won the WC. http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2009/wc09_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

venlac · Jun 12, 2013

jenaj said:
Her 3-3 and 3Lz looked just the same in 2008 as they did in 2013.

3-3 at 2008 WC - http://youtu.be/hwgqIso3ZEs?t=2m35s
3-3 at 2013 WC - http://youtu.be/10zkwGMoAbs?t=53s

3Lutz at 2008 WC - http://youtu.be/hwgqIso3ZEs?t=3m33s
3Lutz at 2013 WC - http://youtu.be/10zkwGMoAbs?t=2m42s

I don't have the idea of another way to explain.. I don't think their quality are same or even comparable at all

kwanatic · Jun 12, 2013

venlac said:
3-3 at 2008 WC - http://youtu.be/hwgqIso3ZEs?t=2m35s
3-3 at 2013 WC - http://youtu.be/10zkwGMoAbs?t=53s

3Lutz at 2008 WC - http://youtu.be/hwgqIso3ZEs?t=3m33s
3Lutz at 2013 WC - http://youtu.be/10zkwGMoAbs?t=2m42s

I don't have the idea of another way to explain.. I don't think their quality are same or even comparable at all

I agree with jenaj...the quality is the exact same. I'd even go as far as to say her 2008 jumpers were slightly better...but not by much which is remarkable when you consider the time lapse. There was nothing wrong with her jumps in 2008 and to say that there was something wrong or that they weren't of the same quality is a disservice to Yu-Na IMO. The reason her scores were lower had nothing to do with the quality of her jumps; it was all process and politics. She was still in the process of building her reputation with the judges.

Case in point: what kind of scores do you think the judges would reward Yu-Na for that same performance today? That 123.38 would be about 20+ points higher. At worlds in 2008 Yu-Na was just Yu-Na Kim...she wasn't Queen Yu-Na yet. Track record and reputation (as well as politics) play a big role in the type of scores skaters receive.

Mathman · Jun 12, 2013

I think her speed into the jumps is better in 2013 compared to 2008. Also the surety and clarity of movement throughout.

kwanatic · Jun 12, 2013

Mathman said:
I think her speed into the jumps is better in 2013 compared to 2008. Also the surety and clarity of movement throughout.

Maybe it's the camera angles but her jumps look the same...actually I thought she got better height on the 3T in her combo than she does now. But ITA about clarity of movement in her artistry. She's definitely more mature and refined in her movements...just compare Yu-Na's artistry at 17 to Gracie's. BIG difference there...but those performance qualities were always there in Yu-Na from the start; she just had to learn to refine it. Gracie is going to have to learn and develop those kind of performance qualities because she does not have them naturally.

Moment · Jun 12, 2013

There is no noticeable difference in her jump height. If there was any she wouldn't be able to rotate them.

kwanatic · Jun 13, 2013

Moment said:
There is no noticeable difference in her jump height. If there was any she wouldn't be able to rotate them.

That's not true. Lack of height doesn't mean a person can't rotate a jump. If you can rotate quickly you don't need as much height. Julia Lipnitskaya's 2A gets about 6 inches off the ice yet she's able to fully rotate it b/c she's so fast in the air. Look at Tara Lipinski's jumps...again, not much air at all but very fast rotations. Of course more height is better b/c you can't always rely on quick rotations, especially after puberty when most ladies' rotation slows due to body changes (height, weight, center of gravity). Yu-Na (unlike skaters like Mao and Mirai for example) was fortunate enough to retain her ability to rotate through puberty and even to now. She rarely (if ever) under-rotates a jump. Some of that can be attributed to superior technique but quick rotation does play a part.

Look at Courtney Hicks: her jumps are massive and she gets a lot of height...but she still gets hit with under-rotations. Why? Even with all that hang-time, she actually rotates somewhat slowly in the air. It's possible to have rotation without much height...but a ton of height doesn't count for squat if you can't rotate the jump...

Moment · Jun 13, 2013

They can because different skaters have different rotational force and different takeoff technique. We're talking about one specific skater. How much angular momentum the skater makes on takeoff is pretty much fixed and constant. It can't easily be changed.

gourry · Jun 13, 2013

kwanatic said:
Maybe it's the camera angles but her jumps look the same...actually I thought she got better height on the 3T in her combo than she does now.

That's because her 2008 3-3 is 3F-3T and 2013 3-3 is 3Lz-3T. Her Lz is huger(huger? is this right word??) and higher than 3F. Her 3T are the same but next to 3Lz, it just looks lower.

Relativity.

Mathman · Jun 13, 2013

gourry said:
huger?

How about "even more humongous"?

Krislite · Jun 13, 2013

gourry said:
That's because her 2008 3-3 is 3F-3T and 2013 3-3 is 3Lz-3T. Her Lz is huger(huger? is this right word??) and higher than 3F. Her 3T are the same but next to 3Lz, it just looks lower. Relativity.

I think back before the 2009-2010 season Yuna's Flip was "bigger" (greater distance and height) than her Lutz, but these days it appears to be the opposite. But that could be because she does the Lutz in a 3-3 combo vs. the solo Flip after the 2008-2009 season. The first triple in a triple-triple naturally has to be "big" to carry enough momentum into the second triple. Whereas a solo triple only needs enough to land smoothly.

Moment · Jun 14, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
If you watch replay, every single skater prerotates their toe jumps. Bad technique would be Kimmie, who basically did toe axels. Gracie does not do that.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IU78A1ezsJA (6:01)
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=VgWWbAktR-w (5:47)

Watch her toe pick making about a quarter turn before leaving the ice.

blue_idealist · Jun 17, 2013

After watching his 1989 performances from Worlds, I would like to add Christopher Bowman, if he hasn't already been mentioned, as a 6.0 skater who would likely do well (possibly better) under CoP.

mskater93 · Jun 17, 2013

Bowman would have had issues with the restrictions of IJS. He'd oftentimes change his program around as he was skating it, which was OK under 6.0, but with quantity restrictions on things, it would be a lot harder for him. Maybe if he were truly well-trained and sober, he would do well under IJS

blue_idealist · Jun 17, 2013

mskater93 said:
Bowman would have had issues with the restrictions of IJS. He'd oftentimes change his program around as he was skating it, which was OK under 6.0, but with quantity restrictions on things, it would be a lot harder for him. Maybe if he were truly well-trained and sober, he would do well under IJS

That's true. I forgot about him changing it around. I was just impressed with his skating skills and technical elements outside of jumps.

mskater93 · Jun 17, 2013

Without doubt, he was incredibly talented blade to ice and rotational ability, just had issues with his ability to say no and to be self-disciplined.

Olympia · Jun 17, 2013

mskater93 said:
Without doubt, he was incredibly talented blade to ice and rotational ability, just had issues with his ability to say no and to be self-disciplined.

A heartbreaking story every time I think of it. Realistically, he'd probably have been like Oda, putting in the wrong extra jump. But if Chris had been able to buckle down and sharpen his focus, then his CoP programs would have been a sight to see, and maybe we'd have an international podium contender once more.

TontoK · Jun 17, 2013

A post on another thread discussing Evan L. made reference to how he was lauded as a hard worker... and how this statement would apply to every skater at this level.

Christopher Bowman is the counter-example. By all accounts, he didn't work very hard to maximize his potential in the sport. No doubt, he had charisma and flair, but he undermined himself.

I'm not sure of the specifics, but I think Nicole Bobek probably fits this description as well.

A shame in both cases.

Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

venlac

venlac

jenaj

venlac

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!

Mathman

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!

Moment

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!

Moment

gourry

Mathman

Krislite

Moment

blue_idealist

mskater93

blue_idealist

mskater93

Olympia

TontoK

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