Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

gkelly · Jun 10, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
EVERY lady holds one of the layback positions for at least 8 revolutions.

That statement is no more true than, say, "Every lady rotates double axels with good landings."

You probably haven't been watching enough lower-ranked seniors -- seniors who don't earn the minimum scores to qualify for Worlds -- let alone juniors, novices, etc. We expect the top seniors to do well on these skills, but the rules apply to all levels. And even the best skaters don't always succeed at what they attempt.

TontoK · Jun 10, 2013

^^^ As we saw at Worlds, even the skills we take for granted can cause big problems.

How many top skaters blew a spin in the SP?

And from the annals of history: 1984 Worlds: Olympic Champion Robin Cousins falls during footwork in SP, and never wins a World Championship.

Blades of Passion · Jun 10, 2013

gkelly said:
That statement is no more true than, say, "Every lady rotates double axels with good landings."

You probably haven't been watching enough lower-ranked seniors -- seniors who don't earn the minimum scores to qualify for Worlds -- let alone juniors, novices, etc. We expect the top seniors to do well on these skills, but the rules apply to all levels. And even the best skaters don't always succeed at what they attempt.

The statement is completely true. Well, the correct wording would have been: "Every lady ATTEMPTS at least 8 revolutions in one of the layback positions."

+GOE isn't merited just for doing the base requirements of level features. GOE is supposed to be about the quality of the element! In the case of Yu-Na's layback, it was +1 GOE quality. +2's and +3's are unfair scores, because there are tons of laybacks out there which are much better, and if you are scoring them the same then how can that be called accurate judging? Even going strictly by the rulebook, I've shown how her layback doesn't truly meet the requirements for a +2.

The judges' scores are heavily influenced by reputation/momentum. Anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves.

TontoK · Jun 10, 2013

Just using common sense (and not the official scoring system) +3 GOE should be reserved for outstanding quality.

As BoP alluded, I can name a bunch of skaters who have/had a better layback than Kim. Lucinda Ruh, Angela Nikodinov, Caroline Zhang, Sasha Cohen... these leap to mind immediately.

Kim's layback is perfectly acceptable. It is not in the same league as the others I've mentioned.

jaylee · Jun 10, 2013

TontoK said:
Just using common sense (and not the official scoring system) +3 GOE should be reserved for outstanding quality.

As BoP alluded, I can name a bunch of skaters who have/had a better layback than Kim. Lucinda Ruh, Angela Nikodinov, Caroline Zhang, Sasha Cohen... these leap to mind immediately.

Kim's layback is perfectly acceptable. It is not in the same league as the others I've mentioned.

Um, not one of those skaters was at 2013 Worlds. And Yu-Na didn't get a bunch of +3s for her layback anyway. She got mostly +2s and two +3s. She got less GOE on her layback in the FS than Zijun Li, Gracie Gold, and the same as Kanako Murakami. Which is fine. And those skaters have a lesser reputation than Yu-Na.

But why are we scrutinizing Yu-Na's GOE and not applying the same strict scrutiny to everyone else, when she didn't even get the most +GOE on that element? Thanks a lot, Mathman, for your #161 post in trying to start a fire over Yu-Na's +GOE by questioning them and taking it out of context of the protocols. :rolleye:

Olympia · Jun 10, 2013

TontoK said:
Just using common sense (and not the official scoring system) +3 GOE should be reserved for outstanding quality.

As BoP alluded, I can name a bunch of skaters who have/had a better layback than Kim. Lucinda Ruh, Angela Nikodinov, Caroline Zhang, Sasha Cohen... these leap to mind immediately.

Kim's layback is perfectly acceptable. It is not in the same league as the others I've mentioned.

And of course Shizuka.

Mathman · Jun 10, 2013

TontoK said:
Just using common sense (and not the official scoring system) +3 GOE should be reserved for outstanding quality.

I think the rules have changed about that. Common sense has given way to lists of bullets to be checked off.

I believe that when the CoP first came out the understanding was that +3 meant the element was of exceptional quality. Almost none were given. Looking at the protocols from that time, the great majority of GOEs were zero. Then they started encouraging judges to give a wider spread of GOEs -- more high ones for extra-good attempts and more low ones for not-so-good efforts. That led to greater discrepancies across the panel of judges. So they scrapped that and went to a list of specific well-defined errors for negative GOEs and a yes-no checklist for positive features.

The idea of good quality = positive GOE, bad quality = negative GOE was more or less abandoned.

jaylee said:
Thanks a lot, Mathman, for your #161 post in trying to start a fire over Yu-Na's +GOE by questioning them and taking it out of context of the protocols.

I know. Now I feel bad about the whole thing. Let's have a truce, OK? Would it help if I say, quite sincerely, that Yuna is my very favorite of all skaters out there now?

But one thing I am glad of, and that is that I learned more about what the choreography spiral sequence is all about, thanks to Moment and Krislite.

ForeverFish · Jun 10, 2013

TontoK said:
^^^ As we saw at Worlds, even the skills we take for granted can cause big problems.

How many top skaters blew a spin in the SP?

And from the annals of history: 1984 Worlds: Olympic Champion Robin Cousins falls during footwork in SP, and never wins a World Championship.

A lot, actually, probably due to the poor quality of the ice ... it should have tipped the judges off when a skater like Mao Asada was sliding all over the place on her spins.

jaylee · Jun 10, 2013

Mathman said:
I know. Now I feel bad about the whole thing. Let's have a truce, OK? Would it help if I say, quite sincerely, that Yuna is my very favorite of all skaters out there now?

But one thing I am glad of, and that is that I learned more about what the choreography spiral sequence is all about, thanks to Moment and Krislite.

Truce.

Thank you Mathman.

Moment · Jun 10, 2013

I don't think Mathman was trying to pull a skateluvr. Calling him out for trying to start an argument is unnecessary, IMHO.

We're seeing the judging panel giving out more GoEs due to reevaluation of the applied factor of them. Until 2010, Yuna has received no more than +2 for her jumps. Now there are more +3s and as a result, the final GOE points for each element remain more or less about the same. I like this change more compared to the previous rules when +3s were never actually applied.

TontoK · Jun 10, 2013

jaylee said:
Um, not one of those skaters was at 2013 Worlds. And Yu-Na didn't get a bunch of +3s for her layback anyway. She got mostly +2s and two +3s. She got less GOE on her layback in the FS than Zijun Li, Gracie Gold, and the same as Kanako Murakami. Which is fine. And those skaters have a lesser reputation than Yu-Na.

But why are we scrutinizing Yu-Na's GOE and not applying the same strict scrutiny to everyone else, when she didn't even get the most +GOE on that element? Thanks a lot, Mathman, for your #161 post in trying to start a fire over Yu-Na's +GOE by questioning them and taking it out of context of the protocols.

Good Grief. Pull in your Yuna-Uber horns.

I referred to her layback because it was the element being discussed at the moment: Yuna's Layback. Hold on to your drawers now - I don't happen to think she's the BEST EVER at EVERY element. Not even close.

The skaters you reference also have an inferior layback to some of the great layback spins in history; so your point about GOE inflation being rampant is well taken.

It's a shame, because judging of individual elements was supposed to reward skaters who excelled in different areas. Grading Yuna's spins as being anywhere close to Lucinda Ruh's is an injustice... same as it would be to grade Lucinda's jumps in the same universe as Yuna's. And, yeah, I get that Lucinda is not competing anymore... but just for illustration.

When Yuna, or anyone else you mentioned, for that matter, gets +2 and +3 for any element that is presented with only "good" quality, then it is an injustice to those who present the same element with truly outstanding merit.

Moment · Jun 10, 2013

+2 means "very good," not close to the best ever. I'll just say this and leave. Too tired to engage in all this. I don't see the inflation.

Krislite · Jun 11, 2013

TontoK said:
Good Grief. Pull in your Yuna-Uber horns.

I referred to her layback because it was the element being discussed at the moment: Yuna's Layback. Hold on to your drawers now - I don't happen to think she's the BEST EVER at EVERY element. Not even close.

The skaters you reference also have an inferior layback to some of the great layback spins in history; so your point about GOE inflation being rampant is well taken.

It's a shame, because judging of individual elements was supposed to reward skaters who excelled in different areas. Grading Yuna's spins as being anywhere close to Lucinda Ruh's is an injustice... same as it would be to grade Lucinda's jumps in the same universe as Yuna's. And, yeah, I get that Lucinda is not competing anymore... but just for illustration.

When Yuna, or anyone else you mentioned, for that matter, gets +2 and +3 for any element that is presented with only "good" quality, then it is an injustice to those who present the same element with truly outstanding merit.

Since when does +3 mean "best ever"? It's the highest GOE for sure, but I see nothing in the rules that say it ought to be reserved for only "the best ever". Good grief, an "injustice" to Lucinda Ruh to give Yuna's spins a +2 GOE? An injustice?! :slink:

The fact is, Lucinda's spins are NOT being "graded" close to Yuna's. Can you point to a protocol of Lucinda Ruh's that shows she got the same GOE as Yuna on her spins?

TontoK · Jun 11, 2013

^^^ Are you paying attention?

If you go back, you'll find that I specifically stated that this was not from the standpoint of IJS rules and protocols. It's more along the lines of dissatisfaction that a list of bullet points could unjustly elevate GOE when common sense and the naked eye will plainly reveal that the move is not worth that when compared to the merit shown by other skaters.

And yes, to clear things up, I think that +3 should be reserved for "among the best ever." Not that it is, but that it should be. And yes, in that context, +2 is an injustice to skaters who had/have truly outstanding layback spins. Yuna has a good one, but not remotely in the same league of the great ones.

In the post you quoted, I even said flat out "And, yeah, I get that Lucinda is not competing anymore... but just for illustration."

I swear, I like Yuna Kim a lot, but the hyper-reaction to anything close to objective criticism is annoying me to the point that I long to see her get her backside kicked. Just to witness the weeping and wailing.

Krislite · Jun 11, 2013

TontoK said:
^^^ Are you paying attention?

If you go back, you'll find that I specifically stated that this was not from the standpoint of IJS rules and protocols. It's more along the lines of dissatisfaction that a list of bullet points could unjustly elevate GOE when common sense and the naked eye will plainly reveal that the move is not worth that when compared to the merit shown by other skaters.

And yes, to clear things up, I think that +3 should be reserved for "among the best ever." Not that it is, but that it should be. And yes, in that context, +2 is an injustice to skaters who had/have truly outstanding layback spins. Yuna has a good one, but not remotely in the same league of the great ones.

In the post you quoted, I even said flat out "And, yeah, I get that Lucinda is not competing anymore... but just for illustration."

I swear, I like Yuna Kim a lot, but the hyper-reaction to anything close to objective criticism is annoying me to the point that I long to see her get her backside kicked. Just to witness the weeping and wailing.

Comparing Yuna's GOE scores to the non-existent GOE of Lucinda Ruh and calling such non-existent GOE which hypothetically is on the same grade as Yuna according to what you feel judges would hypothetically give her (Ruh) were she competing against Yuna is an OBJECTIVE criticism? :rolleye:

You're better off comparing the GOE's Yuna gets on spins when competing in the same event as Alissa Czisny. Then we can talk about "objective criticism" of GOE scores. For the record, you're railing against a strawman. No rational Yuna fan claims she is perfect in every single element, particularly on spins. I know very well she is nowhere near Lucinda Ruh's level, or even Alissa for that matter. But that's a wholly different argument as to whether she deserved the GOE she got in London, given the whole context of how everyone else was judged in that event.

To say Yuna's spins are not as good as Lucinda Ruh's therefore she doesn't deserve +2 is utterly non sequitur. It only follows if one concedes that only Ruh's deserves such GOE, which I wholly disagree with. I'm sure thousands of Physics students none as brilliant as Einstein got A's in Physics/Sciences courses and PhD's in their field from prestigious institutions. Is that an injustice to Einstein because he was so much smarter than them, yet got the same grades and degrees? Should all the other Nobel Prize winners in Physics renounce their awards because only Einstein could be deserving of such an honor?

You make it sound like +2 and +3 GOE is some exalted honor reserved only for the greatest skaters who ever lived (as if Yuna isn't even in that category). It's nothing like that. It's more like that A or A+ professors give to brilliant students who excel their courses. When your professor gives you an A+ she's not saying you're the smartest student she ever taught. :laugh:

Only that you met the criteria for such a grade.

bara1968 · Jun 11, 2013

TontoK said:
^^^ Are you paying attention?

And yes, to clear things up, I think that +3 should be reserved for "among the best ever." Not that it is, but that it should be. And yes, in that context, +2 is an injustice to skaters who had/have truly outstanding layback spins. Yuna has a good one, but not remotely in the same league of the great ones.

Hmm, it simply seems like you just do not have same criteria as current GOE rule book. But even if we want to follow your criteria, to make clear guideline for GOE, somebody should find the way to describe explicitely what it means by "among the best ever" or "outstanding". I guess this will eventually end up with creating pretty much similar guideline as current one. But interesting point. (And i will ignore your last line.)

Ven · Jun 11, 2013

Moment said:
Until 2010, Yuna has received no more than +2 for her jumps. Now there are more +3s and as a result, the final GOE points for each element remain more or less about the same. I like this change more compared to the previous rules when +3s were never actually applied.

I thought her jumps at 2013 worlds were better than I've ever seen.

Ven · Jun 11, 2013

TontoK said:
I swear, I like Yuna Kim a lot, but the hyper-reaction to anything close to objective criticism is annoying me to the point that I long to see her get her backside kicked. Just to witness the weeping and wailing.

Why? Yuna is a beautiful skater, and seems to be a wonderful person. Why would it bring you pleasure to see something bad happen to her, just because you get upset with a fan?

I could follow your point until this, but this is ridiculous.

jaylee · Jun 11, 2013

TontoK said:
Good Grief. Pull in your Yuna-Uber horns.

Actually, I'm an uber fan of logic and facts, which were utterly missing in your post. *shrug*

I referred to her layback because it was the element being discussed at the moment: Yuna's Layback. Hold on to your drawers now - I don't happen to think she's the BEST EVER at EVERY element. Not even close.

And I never claimed that Yu-Na was the "BEST EVER at EVERY element."

*MY* point was that she didn't even get the BEST GOE for her spin at these World Championships, so why all this nitpicking about her score for her layback when she didn't even get the highest score there?

The skaters you reference also have an inferior layback to some of the great layback spins in history; so your point about GOE inflation being rampant is well taken.

It's a shame, because judging of individual elements was supposed to reward skaters who excelled in different areas. Grading Yuna's spins as being anywhere close to Lucinda Ruh's is an injustice... same as it would be to grade Lucinda's jumps in the same universe as Yuna's. And, yeah, I get that Lucinda is not competing anymore... but just for illustration.

Using Lucinda Ruh--a 6.0 skater--as an example of "injustice" in scoring Yu-Na's spins doesn't illustrate anything except your lack of logic.

TontoK · Jun 11, 2013

You have completely convinced me.

Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

gkelly

TontoK

Hot Tonto

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

TontoK

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jaylee

Olympia

Mathman

ForeverFish

jaylee

Moment

TontoK

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Moment

Krislite

TontoK

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Krislite

bara1968

Ven

Match Penalty

Ven

Match Penalty

jaylee

TontoK

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