Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

Mathman said:

Now all we have to worry about is the technical panel propping up its favorites in URs, edge calls, levels, etc. -- and then the judges propping up their favorites in GOEs and PCSs.

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I know, right! Well, at least these are objective things that the tech panel would have to answer for. Yes, leniency will be given to favourites and astringency given to less popular skaters (or skaters the tech specialist dislikes), but a tech specialist would lose credibility if they were continually notorious for calling levels or edge calls or URs incorrectly, when the video replay can usually clearly show if they made accurate calls.

Also, under IJS, a mistake made on an element like a 3A still allows for the element to get decent points than on an easier element. This is something I really don't think was accounted for in the 6.0 system. Essentially the point being that under TES in IJS, the judge can't give a whole lot of favouritism (other than GOE, which is only a small portion of the base value) to a skater they like who executes easier difficulty over a lesser skater with greater difficulty falls, because points-wise (technically at least) it would amount to the same thing, which is how it should be.

No system is perfect. If you applied the COP rules to Lucinda she might not get a 3 - what?? why? well there are bullets or points and she could be knocked for not going with the cresendo of the music etc. and a long beautiful spin not really with the music could be seen not as good. Plus there the plus and negative goe system could be flawed - not taking enough the differentiation of levels thus ruh and kim possibly getting similar scores on a spin despite ruh supposedly being far better. it's like a rule if you score 86percent on an exam it is an A. the person who scored 96 also got an a but they are both lumped in the A catergory. like being lumped in the plus 3 category I guess.

Skater Boy said:

No system is perfect. If you applied the COP rules to Lucinda she might not get a 3 - what?? why? well there are bullets or points and she could be knocked for not going with the cresendo of the music etc. and a long beautiful spin not really with the music could be seen not as good. Plus there the plus and negative goe system could be flawed - not taking enough the differentiation of levels thus ruh and kim possibly getting similar scores on a spin despite ruh supposedly being far better. it's like a rule if you score 86percent on an exam it is an A. the person who scored 96 also got an a but they are both lumped in the A catergory. like being lumped in the plus 3 category I guess.

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I'm pretty sure Lucinda Ruh would get +3s on several of her spins, and levels would not be a problem for her. I think the mark of a solid spinner is that they perform spins with many positions and rotations with ease, even when they don't have to (e.g. in an exhibition or a competition where they're an overwhelming favourite).

TontoK said:

Good Grief. Pull in your Yuna-Uber horns.

I referred to her layback because it was the element being discussed at the moment: Yuna's Layback. Hold on to your drawers now - I don't happen to think she's the BEST EVER at EVERY element. Not even close.

The skaters you reference also have an inferior layback to some of the great layback spins in history; so your point about GOE inflation being rampant is well taken.

It's a shame, because judging of individual elements was supposed to reward skaters who excelled in different areas. Grading Yuna's spins as being anywhere close to Lucinda Ruh's is an injustice... same as it would be to grade Lucinda's jumps in the same universe as Yuna's. And, yeah, I get that Lucinda is not competing anymore... but just for illustration.

When Yuna, or anyone else you mentioned, for that matter, gets +2 and +3 for any element that is presented with only "good" quality, then it is an injustice to those who present the same element with truly outstanding merit.

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I think it is the important point.
where she get many +2 or +3 on her spin is only at 2013 Worlds FS. In SP, she didnt got GOE like that.

I think judges had judgement generously in FS which she had clean again and justified her winning, because she was a bit underscored in SP.

Ven said:

Why? Yuna is a beautiful skater, and seems to be a wonderful person. Why would it bring you pleasure to see something bad happen to her, just because you get upset with a fan?

I could follow your point until this, but this is ridiculous.

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I think TontoK is tired of the ubers (more than one) who defend anything that is perceived as criticism of Yuna or her scores such that she/he somewhat hopes that Yuna is beaten because there will be hand wringing and wailing. Some people feel the same way about Chan (his ability to put his foot in his mouth AND his ubers are annoying, so they hope he loses so they can hear the ubers wail and moan) and are figuring skating fans who cheer ABC (Anybody But Chan).

TontoK said specifically that he/she doesn't agree with how GOEs are currently graded - check off bullets on a list mentally and assign based on number of bullets. It means that spins that would typically be considered average when qualitatively evaluated (position is OK, not awesome, speed is nice but not special) gets a plus GOE; so a spin like Yuna's layback is only scored slightly lower than a spin like Alissa Czsiny's layback when there should be a wider gulf on that element.

Moment said:

We're seeing the judging panel giving out more GoEs due to reevaluation of the applied factor of them. Until 2010, Yuna has received no more than +2 for her jumps. Now there are more +3s and as a result, the final GOE points for each element remain more or less about the same. I like this change more compared to the previous rules when +3s were never actually applied.

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I think this point is key. An excellent triple Salchow three years ago might be a +2. This really meant +2.

In 2013 that same jump might get a +3. But this really meanS +2.1.


In her 2010 Olympics free skate KIm got a total of only 7 +3s, out of 108 judges' marks. This gave her a total of 17.40 extra points above base value for the segment. (Curiously, this is about the base value of two triple Axels.)

In her 2013 Words free skate she got 33 +3s. This gave her 16.51 bonus points -- about the same as the Olympic skate.

So I think all we are seeing is a post-Olympics tweaking of the IJS rules.

This does leave open the question of how to reward individual moves that totally blow the roof off the place, like a Lucinda Rue spin or a Shizuka Arakawa Ina Bauer (or a Yuna Kim triple Lutz ). Presumable this goes towards performance/execution and things like that.

^^^

Thank you. "There should be a wider gulf." That was the point I was trying to make before getting frustrated with the ubers.

Nonetheless, I predict your clarification will be insufficient, and they'll swoop down again quite soon.

Sorry, just trying to clarify the point I saw you trying to make. They may, or they may swoop and poop on me instead.

mskater93 said:

I think TontoK is tired of the ubers (more than one) who defend anything that is perceived as criticism of Yuna or her scores such that she/he somewhat hopes that Yuna is beaten because there will be hand wringing and wailing. Some people feel the same way about Chan (his ability to put his foot in his mouth AND his ubers are annoying, so they hope he loses so they can hear the ubers wail and moan) and are figuring skating fans who cheer ABC (Anybody But Chan).

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You're an uber of skaters like Gracie Gold, aren't you? And I've never had a problem with that, whether or not I agree or disagree with your points. I don't use the fact that you're an uber of Gracie to dismiss you completely. And THAT is what is happening here. People aren't really addressing points, they're dismissing people as ubers with a lot of condescension and arrogance. It's really off-putting.

I can't wait for when Yu-Na retires, and another skater steps up to take the heat. I wonder how THAT skater (and THEIR fans) will handle the non-stop criticism. Because the more you win, the more everyone scrutinizes everything that you do. Maybe that skater will be Gracie.

TontoK said specifically that he/she doesn't agree with how GOEs are currently graded - check off bullets on a list mentally and assign based on number of bullets. It means that spins that would typically be considered average when qualitatively evaluated (position is OK, not awesome, speed is nice but not special) gets a plus GOE; so a spin like Yuna's layback is only scored slightly lower than a spin like Alissa Czsiny's layback when there should be a wider gulf on that element.

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Where was Alissa Czisny and her layback at 2013 Worlds and how did it score in comparison to Yu-Na's? How can you say there should be a wider gulf when we don't have data on this gulf since Alissa wasn't even at that competition (or any competition last season)?

I have no problem with TontoK saying that he/she doesn't agree with how GOEs are currently graded. I have a problem with how he/she framed and supported that argument--by citing skaters with better laybacks than Kim who weren't at Worlds, and some of whom never even competed under IJS.

Wow. So this thread is way OT...but what else is new.

I'll add my 2 cents by saying I think the IJS is a good system with several problems. I enjoyed 6.0 scoring but I for one don't want to see it return. I miss 6.0 skating but I've adjusted to and am accepting of this "new" almost decade old system of scoring. There are some issues that should be addressed regarding the way things are scored (in particular GOE, PCS and penalties for falls) but overall I like that the system attempts to break down the different elements and score each individually.

Has bias scoring been eradicated? Not at all. A combination of GOE and PCS enable judges to keep certain skaters down and prop others up. Same can be said of the presentation mark in 6.0...I don't know if that's something that will ever be resolved when it comes to figure skating.

Regarding Yu-Na at worlds, I did think some of her GOE and PCS were a bit much. Whenever I disagree with scoring at the major events, I go back and score the performances for myself. I scored the top 10 ladies at worlds this year (I posted all of the scores/explanations on my blog). I scored Yu-Na higher in the SP by almost 2 points and lower in the FS by about 8 points. The majority of those 8 points came from GOE. IMO (purely my opinion) none of Yu-Na's elements were worth +3 that night. I'm sure hoards of people will disagree but that's how I felt. I thought her 3-3 and toe jumps were very good (+2) and her final spin was very good (+2). Everything else was good (+1). My GOE came up to slightly less than 11 points as opposed to the 17 points she got from the judges.

However, this was a case where the scoring reflected the rest of the competition and I do think Yu-Na got the double benefit of skating last: she was leading coming in, the rest of the favs all had mistakes, and to top it off she nailed all of her elements. I called it happy piddle scoring; the judges were so excited to see her knock her performance out of the park, they let the +2s and +3s and 9+ PCS fly...and I don't blame them. I agree with her winning by a large margin...just not that large. Yu-Na beat out Carolina by nearly 22 points; in my scoring she beat out Mao (who I placed 2nd over Carolina) by a little more than 14 points.

I thought Yu-Na was very good but I do not think that program or performance was in a league with what she did in Vancouver but judging by those scores, that's kinda what the judges thought. But I get it. In relation to everyone else that night, Yu-Na was clearly better. Now an interesting hypothetical would have been if Carolina managed to skate both of her programs without error. Yu-Na and Carolina get the most love when it comes to GOE and PCS and we all know when they go clean those numbers shoot through the roof. So if both were clean, who would come out on top? A lot of people don't think Carolina can come close to Yu-Na but I think it would be very close. Personally, I preferred Carolina's programs and performances over Yu-Na's this year so if both were clean, I'd place Carolina slightly ahead of Yu-Na...

Ah, and the swoop and poop happened, Tonto!

kwanatic said:

IMO (purely my opinion) none of Yu-Na's elements were worth +3 that night. I'm sure hoards of people will disagree but that's how I felt. I thought her 3-3 and toe jumps were very good (+2) and her final spin was very good (+2). Everything else was good (+1).

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sorry, i know i can be seen like a bot or uber, but I have one thing that really wonder

here are other skaters' jumps wich got +2 and several +3 GOE.
osmond's 3F which got +2 from almost all judges(one judge gave +1, one gave +3)
http://youtu.be/a8PFf9VBzfg?t=1m33s
Mao's 2A-3T which got +2 GOE from all judges(one judge gave +3)
http://youtu.be/cjnChWXVteA?t=2m42s
Carolina's 3Lz which got three +3 and six +2
http://youtu.be/0cYQMHiJSFk?t=2m13s

do you think or believe Yu-Na's 3-3 and toe jumps have similar/less quality than those?

mskater93 said:

Ah, and the swoop and poop happened, Tonto!

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Always easier to mock people than respond to points made.

venlac said:

sorry, i know i can be seen like a bot or uber, but I have one thing that really wonder

Mao's 2A-3T which got +2 GOE from all judges, and one judge gave +3
http://youtu.be/cjnChWXVteA?t=2m42s
Carolina's 3Lz which got three +3 and six +2
http://youtu.be/0cYQMHiJSFk?t=2m13s

do you think or believe Yu-Na's 3-3 and toe jumps have similar/less quality than those?

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Ah, but kwanatic didn't say that she would have given Mao or Carolina's jumps +3, either. I don't necessarily agree with everything that kwanatic said, but she judged all of the top 10 skaters herself. She didn't accept the judges' protocols for some skaters while applying her own judgments for another.

venlac said:

sorry, i know i can be seen like a bot or uber, but I have one thing that really wonder

Mao's 2A-3T which got +2 GOE from all judges, and one judge gave +3
http://youtu.be/cjnChWXVteA?t=2m42s
Carolina's 3Lz which got three +3 and six +2
http://youtu.be/0cYQMHiJSFk?t=2m13s

do you think or believe Yu-Na's 3-3 and toe jumps have similar/less quality than those?

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I guess I'm kind of hard when it comes to GOE. Out of the 10 ladies I scored, I only gave out three +3s in the FS:

- Mao: footwork
- Carolina: footwork
- Zijun Li: layback spin

As for your question, Mao's 2A-3T starts as an edge jump w/ the axel. I thought the axel had good speed going into it, very nice coverage and the 3T was clearly rotated and had a decent amount of flow coming out. I checked my scores and I gave her a +2 for this element. It's the only jump element for Mao that got +2 in my scoring. I gave her 3L-2L +1, but none of her other jumps got +GOE. +3 would have been excessive here...

As for Carolina's 3Lz, I do think it's comparable to Yu-Na's lutz. The speed going in, the correct edge, the gorgeous air position, the speed on the landing. That's +2 IMO. The only thing that almost made me give it a +1 instead of +2 was the longer setup; however, I grew up under 6.0 where long edge setups were very common for lutzes so it doesn't bother me.

To be honest, I can't recall the last jump I saw that was worth +3. If Gracie Gold ever manages to land that Rippon lutz...I think that might be worth +3. Her lutzes (when she lands them) are off the correct edge, good speed, great height and coverage, and good speed on the landing which is easily +2 in my book. Add the difficulty of the arms overhead...that's a +3 for me.

jaylee said:

Ah, but kwanatic didn't say that she would have given Mao or Carolina's jumps +3, either. I don't necessarily agree with everything that kwanatic said, but she judged all of the top 10 skaters herself. She didn't accept the judges' protocols for some skaters while applying her own judgments for another.

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I went by the judges' protocols for my scoring this time except in the SP. I went by my own judgement for Yu-Na's flip and Carolina's 3-3. I honestly don't know why they called Yu-Na's edge b/c it looked clean from every angle I saw. That was very questionable so I decided to give Yu-Na the benefit of the doubt and give her full credit for that jump. As for Carolina, it looked like her the 2nd 3T in her combo was under-rotated though the panel gave her full credit. I thought (as well as 90% of the others watching) that it was UR so I docked the base value of that combo.

I don't think there were any questionable calls in the FS, so I went by the protocols on that one. But there were of weird calls made in the SP that I chose to ignore

mskater93 said:

Ah, and the swoop and poop happened, Tonto!

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Shocker.

Continuation of the topic is unproductive at this point.

I've conceded all their points (and any other points that they will make, now and forevermore) and disengaging from this thread.

kwanatic said:

As for your question, Mao's 2A-3T starts as an edge jump w/ the axel. I thought the axel had good speed going into it, very nice coverage and the 3T was clearly rotated and had a decent amount of flow coming out. I checked my scores and I gave her a +2 for this element. It's the only jump element for Mao that got +2 in my scoring. I gave her 3L-2L +1, but none of her other jumps got +GOE. +3 would have been excessive here...

As for Carolina's 3Lz, I do think it's comparable to Yu-Na's lutz. The speed going in, the correct edge, the gorgeous air position, the speed on the landing. That's +2 IMO. The only thing that almost made me give it a +1 instead of +2 was the longer setup; however, I grew up under 6.0 where long edge setups were very common for lutzes so it doesn't bother me.

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in above post, you said that kim's 3-3 and toe jumps are deserving +2, never +3, and in this post, you said that those jumps are deserving +2.
Then, you think kim's 3-3 and toe jumps and those jumps have similar quality in your standard, right? I had wondered and asked about that, i wasn't talking about whether their GOE is correct

venlac said:

in above post, you said that kim's 3-3 and toe jumps are deserving +2, never +3, and in this post, you said that those jumps are deserving +2.
Then, you think kim's 3-3 and toe jumps and those jumps have similar quality in your standard, right? I had wondered and asked about that, i wasn't talking about whether their GOE is correct

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I didn't say "never" +3...just that I didn't think anything she did that night was worth +3.

To answer your question, as far as execution goes I suppose that would be a fair assessment that those elements were of similar quality to Yu-Na's jumps. A direct comparison is much easier. Yu-Na didn't have a 2A-3T in her program and hasn't had one since 2010 so it's tough to make a direct comparison; however, I don't think that would change my opinion of giving Mao +2. I gave you a comparison of Carolina's lutz to Yu-Na's...

Did that answer your question?

No female skater has ever done a better 3Lz+3T or a 3F in terms of pure takeoff technique.

Moment said:

No female skater has ever done a better 3Lz+3T or a 3F in terms of pure takeoff technique.

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True, but I would amend this to say "No female skater has ever done a better 3lz-3t and 3F in terms of pure takeoff technique." I say that only b/c I think Gracie Gold could give Yu-Na's 3lz-3t a run for its money...that is if she can land it. But the same isn't true for her flip. It's tough to find a good jumper with both a solid lutz and solid flip; it's usually one or the other. Gracie has a great lutz but her flip is consistently hit with edge calls.