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Thread: Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    OK, I'll start with the obvious one: Yuna Kim at her current level would dominate under any system of scoring.
    I think she would need 7 triples during the Kwan era to win.

  2. #17
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    I think that it is not of much use to speculate about what a skater might have done if he or she had lived at a different time and had competed under different rules. It seems sort of moot to try to guess whether Katarina Witt would have had a triple Axel if she had lived thirty years later. Plushenko is the only one who actually did dominate under both systems, from the 2002-03 season to 2005-06.

    Chan is an interesting case. He is the master of the CoP. He knows under what rock each tenth of a point is hiding, and he knows how to gather enough of them that it doesn’t really matter about the mistakes. His Elegy exhibition program shows that he is capable of skating beautifully, and his Elegy short program shows that he can switch gears and grab up the CoP points instead.

    The reason that I list Yuna Kim alone as a two-fer among active skaters is this. Her CoP programs are 6.0 programs. IMHO her performance of Les Miz at 2013 worlds, just as it was, would have beat any ladies’ LP ever, CoP or 6.0, including herself at 2010 Olympics. Looking at the protocols, she won almost entirely on GOE. Her total GOEs were an insurmountable 16.51, compared to 4.59 for Kostner and 3.66 for Asada.

    This is just what 6.0 rewarded, too. Acceptable difficulty and every element done with awe-inspiring perfection. Couple that with satisfactory spins and moves in the field, along with good flow and grace throughout, and Bob’s your uncle. The only 6.0 weakness would be that she didn’t do a triple loop (6.0 was happiest when the skater did the full repertoire of jumps; CoP let’s you omit an element or two and make up the points elsewhere.)

    A great 6.0 skater (like Kim) casts a spell of effortlessness, confidence, and mastery, of being totally in command of every detail of the performance. In contrast, CoP point-mongers are often helter-skelter, blowing one element but charging ahead like a bull in a China shop to the next undeterred.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I think she would need 7 triples during the Kwan era to win.
    I think she would have been competitive as is. Her huge triple-Lutz/triple toe and her double Axel combinations would have made up for the lack of a triple loop. But, yeah, she would need the triple loop to dominate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emdee View Post
    Exactly. That is why I nominated Chan. He has not been off the podium for 5 years.
    ... and was boo-ed/laughed off twice in three of his golds. What great "domination"! Thanks for the laugh.
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It's a little unfair to say Chan couldn't skate clean programs when if he had to do 6.0-friendly programs with reduced difficulty between the elements, he'd probably have much cleaner programs (it's like saying Takahashi/Mao/Kostner wouldn't be a strong 6.0 skater because of their mistakes, even though they'd probably skate cleaner with less intricate programs).
    It doesn't correspond to the facts. Patrick Chan fell not on jumps only, not even near on jumps only. He spinned on his tummy just recently. He fell on footworks as well, and also while he was just skating, i.e. not on the elements at all. No skater has such a list of "achivements". So no need to drag other skates' names in this zamboni camp. It looks like a pathetic attemp to save Chan's repuation at someone else's expense. Won't work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Plushenko is the only one who actually did dominate under both systems, from the 2002-03 season to 2005-06.
    True. Yuna could have done it as well. And pretty much any of Soviet/Russian top Pair.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I think she would need 7 triples during the Kwan era to win.
    Not to win, but to dominate. Under 6.0, skaters who did the triple-triple were kind of expected to go for 7 triples. The number of triples done in the long program under 6.0 was a factor in the technical score--not necessarily an official one, but a factor nonetheless.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    The reason that I list Yuna Kim alone as a two-fer among active skaters is this. Her CoP programs are 6.0 programs. IMHO her performance of Les Miz at 2013 worlds, just as it was, would have beat any ladies’ LP ever, CoP or 6.0, including herself at 2010 Olympics.
    I have to make the case for Michelle's 7-triple Red Violin program at 2000 Worlds. And not only on tech. Her second mark in this program (and in many other programs) would beat Yu Na here.

    ETA: I don't think her Les Mis program at Worlds is better than her 2010 Oly LP, either. In many ways, they are the same program, in terms of content (with a few adjustments for the changes in scoring). But her 2010 program had better music and, in my opinion, better artistry.
    I think Yu Na's best program, and best performance, was her LP at 2011 Worlds. Unfortunately, she made mistakes on several of her jumps that kept it from being among her best technically. But her footwork, the placement of the spiral and the overall choreography were all superb. Skated without mistakes, it would have had a few 6.0s for presentation under the old system, I think.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The reason that I list Yuna Kim alone as a two-fer among active skaters is this. Her CoP programs are 6.0 programs. IMHO her performance of Les Miz at 2013 worlds, just as it was, would have beat any ladies’ LP ever, CoP or 6.0, including herself at 2010 Olympics. Looking at the protocols, she won almost entirely on GOE. Her total GOEs were an insurmountable 16.51, compared to 4.59 for Kostner and 3.66 for Asada.
    That is not total GOE, only FS's GOE.

    It's unfair to compare GOE between clean skate and messed skate or skate with several mistakes.

    Kim had clean program.
    carolina kostner did totally messed program, Usually she don't receive GOE like that. Although she still beat Asada in GOE.
    For Asada, she got UR on 3flip, popped 3T.

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    I think under 6.0 the gap between Mao and Yuna would be smaller. Since slightly UR jumps weren't an issue, Asada would have gotten more credit for what she put out (especially in the last few seasons once she started consistently URing her jumps). Also, she wouldn't have tried to fix her flutz, which was actually a nice, high, and usually rotated jump for her through the 08 season when they introduced the "e".

    I also think Wagner would be doing even better in these past two seasons due to her ability to put out 2-clean programs back to back. Unfortunately, I don't think Kostner would fare as well as Mao, Yuna, and Wagner because of her tendency to make mistakes. However, it is hard to speculate because if the emphasis was on skating a clean program rather than counting distorted revolutions of spins, etc., we may be seeing cleaner programs overall. Who knows.

    Someone else who was fairly dominant in both systems was Lambiel. (Lambiel would be great under any system, though...)

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    I think Midori Ito and Kristi yamaguchi would do very well under cop, I don't think midori underrotated anything ever! and her jump goes would have been huge ( great height, difficult entries, huge speed all of which would negate the leg wrap which wasn't as severe as say nakanos) plus she could put a 3t on the end of anything! she was also a strong spinner who could have adapted to cop spinning requirements. Kristi had a 3lz+3t and was also a strong spinner. Under cop Kristi could have skipped the 3sal which she basically always missed.
    Kim and Asada would have done very well under 6.0 aswell. I have never been a fan of Kims but the quality and difficulty of her skating is undeniable. Asada wouldn't have problems with the slight urs especially on the +3lo combos.
    Charlene Wong said something in the manleywoman skatecast that has stuck with me, It doesn't matter what system you skate under, good skating is good skating I think this applies to this thread

  10. #25
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    Lambiel competed under the 6.0 system. His first senior season was 2001/2002, he was at SLC.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The reason that I list Yuna Kim alone as a two-fer among active skaters is this. Her CoP programs are 6.0 programs. IMHO her performance of Les Miz at 2013 worlds, just as it was, would have beat any ladies’ LP ever, CoP or 6.0, including herself at 2010 Olympics.
    No way would that have beaten Midori Ito's 1990 Worlds LP, to me the best performance ever (although she didn't win). Yuna could not pull 6.0's on technical merit with 6 triples next to Midori. I also think Kwan's 2001 Worlds LP would have surpassed Yuna, 7 triples vs 6 and the US being a much more influential fed than S Korea. 6.0 was much more about quantity that quality.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think she would have been competitive as is. Her huge triple-Lutz/triple toe and her double Axel combinations would have made up for the lack of a triple loop. But, yeah, she would need the triple loop to dominate.
    2A combinations were not really done during the Kwan era because they aren't nearly as difficult as 3/3's, so I don't think she would have been rewarded much for them. It's a peculiarity of the current scoring system that has popularized 2A combinations, not because they are difficult.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateSkates View Post
    I think under 6.0 the gap between Mao and Yuna would be smaller. Since slightly UR jumps weren't an issue, Asada would have gotten more credit for what she put out (especially in the last few seasons once she started consistently URing her jumps). Also, she wouldn't have tried to fix her flutz, which was actually a nice, high, and usually rotated jump for her through the 08 season when they introduced the "e"
    Mao have been had much less consistency than kim, even besides URs
    In 6.0, flawless/cleaner programs were important

    She didnt had many cleaner programs
    To be fair, isn't it?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    No way would that have beaten Midori Ito's 1990 Worlds LP, to me the best performance ever (although she didn't win). Yuna could not pull 6.0's on technical merit with 6 triples next to Midori. I also think Kwan's 2001 Worlds LP would have surpassed Yuna, 7 triples vs 6 and the US being a much more influential fed than S Korea. 6.0 was much more about quantity that quality.
    But Kim would've landed loop if she was competing in 6.0. She's currently not doing loop because she doesn't have to (although there can be a debate on whether she is not doing them vs she can't do them). I still remember her landing a delayed, fully rotated triple loop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgaFOHnlAjs). Knowing how Yuna is extremely competitive, if she had to land loop to win, I think she would've executed them.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    But Kim would've landed loop if she was competing in 6.0. She's currently not doing loop because she doesn't have to (although there can be a debate on whether she is not doing them vs she can't do them). I still remember her landing a delayed, fully rotated triple loop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgaFOHnlAjs). Knowing how Yuna is extremely competitive, if she had to land loop to win, I think she would've executed them.
    Maybe, but we don't know for sure especially because a lot of skaters have one problem jump. In the 1995 WC Surya landed 7 triples (many of them shaky) to Chen Lu's 6, yet was beaten by a 5-4 margin by the judging panel. In 1994 Surya had an UR 3T on her 3/3 and a very wild landing on a 3R yet still almost beat a clean Yuka Sato, who was a better skater by a large margin. Against a clean 7-triple Michelle with a 3/3, Yuna would HAVE to land a 3R to win that match-up. For Surya to lose narrowly to much better skaters simply by landing more, and not higher quality, triples shows that under 6.0 you had to have the full range of jumps.

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