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Thread: Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    To me, the difficulty in guessing what kind of a 6.0 skater Patrick might have been is this: The things that Patrick is most amazing at, those are exactly the things that the CoP brings to the fore and were not greatly valued under 6.0 (transitions, blade work).

    Under 6.0 he might have fallen less, but by the same token he might not have worked to develop his eye-popping edge skills.
    His edge skills were developed by rigorously training of figures. He just utilizes these to gain points in COP. He would have used them differently under 6.0

  2. #47
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    As to some of the earlier comments Kim from Vancouver or London would definitely have a chance, a good one, to beat even the Kwan of Vancouver under 6.0 IMO. Irina Slutskaya at those Worlds managed only 5 clean triples, had a mistake, a sloppy performance that was below her season standards, and relatively weak presentation that is below both Kwan and Kim, and still won 3 judges, and had the higher technical marks. Kim even with 6 triples would get the higher technical marks no problem vs Kwan's 7. While I would agree Kim overall is a more devastating COP skater than 6.0, the judge under 6.0 would actually credit some of her very difficult triple-triples more than COP does. The judges would give huge value to her triple lutz-triple toe and reward it much more highly than a mere triple toe-triple toe and it would more than make up the difference of a triple loop. That is presuming Kim wouldnt even add a triple loop and probably land it if she felt it was important. Kwan when COP was introduced took out her triple loop as well, lol! Add to that Kim's jumps are much bigger and of higher quality, her spins are better, and her footwork are on par, and she generally skates with more speed, and she would easily win the technical mark. Slutskaya's much weaker (relative to Kim's best performance) 2001 Worlds performance even beat Kwan in the technical mark, presumably mostly since the judges felt a triple salchow-triple loop value over a triple toe-triple toe was enough to make up for all the other deficiencies of the performance. As for the presentation mark if Slutskaya was holding her own, Kim would be just fine there too. I actually found Kwan at the 2000 Worlds even better than 2011 but here Slutskaya with only 6 triples attempted, no triple-triple attempt, a big pop open, and one of the most generic Carmens I ever saw, still took marks off a perfect 7 triple, triple-triple, and again had higher technical marks than a skating with more speed and attack than I ever saw her Kwan, so again Kim at her best with her trusty mammoth triple lutz-triple toe combo I dont see being shut of a chance of winning even if she did only 6 triples, lol!

    6.0 between Kwan and Kim both at their best and in general (keeping in mind the general consistency level of both and that most times they dont skate their best level despite being two of the most consistent skaters ever) would be very close either way though I agree. However that is the difference, Kwan vs Kim under 6.0 is a very close battle, but Kim at her best vs Kwan at her best under COP would be a blowout and Kwan would lose badly in that scenario. Notice how we are only debating who would win in these hypothetical competitions under 6.0, nobody even dares to propose under COP as it isnt even worth discussing. For Kwan to dominate under COP she would certainly have to avoid people like Kim and Asada at their best, and even Slutskaya at her best as it was already pretty clear their rivalry would have been very different under COP than it was under 6.0 (not that Irina was ever an easy opponent for Michelle even under 6.0). Even Cohen would have defeated Kwan many more times under COP than 6.0, and possibly Arakawa (although not too often only since she was a skater who dropped bombs on the ice 80% of her competitions), and probably some others too. I like Kwan alot but between her and Kim which skater would be more capable of dominating under both COP and 6.0, it is Kim easily, as Kim being a dominant force and winning most all competitions she skated her best under 6.0 (just as Kwan of course was under 6.0 and Kim of course was under COP) is much easier to imagine than the reverse being true for Kwan under COP.


    Ito is very interesting to consider. I honestly dont entirely know how she would fare under COP, but I suspect at her best she would be almost unbeatable like she was under 6.0. That said one interesting thing is how they would score her jumps exactly. While I firmly believe she is the best female jumper ever, the COP rules require deductions for things like form flaws, so it would be interesting if she was still able to get the +3s on GOE. Personally I believe she should as the other qualities of her jumps more than make up for the leg wrap but with the COP rules I am not sure. Her spins and footwork in the late 80s were ahead of their time in difficulty as well, and she actually skated programs with more transitions than other skaters were doing for the time. Her spiral sequence was a fug miss but that is only one element.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Maybe, but we don't know for sure especially because a lot of skaters have one problem jump. In the 1995 WC Surya landed 7 triples (many of them shaky) to Chen Lu's 6, yet was beaten by a 5-4 margin by the judging panel. In 1994 Surya had an UR 3T on her 3/3 and a very wild landing on a 3R yet still almost beat a clean Yuka Sato, who was a better skater by a large margin. Against a clean 7-triple Michelle with a 3/3, Yuna would HAVE to land a 3R to win that match-up. For Surya to lose narrowly to much better skaters simply by landing more, and not higher quality, triples shows that under 6.0 you had to have the full range of jumps.
    Lu Chen landed 5 triples at the 1995 Worlds, not 6. Surya Bonaly also had two triple-triples that night, so not just 7 triples, but 7 triples with two triple-triples (which is atleast the value of an additional triple under 6.0 so it was basically a skater doing 5 triples vs one doing 9 or 10). Chen also didnt even do a 2nd triple lutz which was a big minus then. Granted 1 or 2 of Bonaly's landings were questionable, including the back end of one of her triple-triples, but stilll..... Yet Bonaly still lost, not that I am disagreeing with that, I still agreed with Chen's win, but their triple quota was not close in anyway either.

    As for the 1994 Worlds that was only close since Bonaly by far had a bigger name at the time. It was a joke it was even that close, but had Sato for instance won the bronze at the Olympics, it would have been 9-0 for her with the same performances.

    Then you have the 1993 Worlds. Oksana Baiul landed only 5 triples, one of them two footed, attempted no triple-double combination even which was against the rules then, and still beat Bonaly who did 7 triples, a triple-triple, 2 triple lutzes, atleast 3 triple-double or higher combinations. Again like 95 not even close in jump quota, and Baiul still the viktor.

    I mentioned this is my above post but when COP was introduced Kwan immdiately dropped the triple loop. Granted I know she was past her physical prime by then, but there is still no telling she wouldnt have done that even in her prime. She often missed that particular jump, just like Kim did, and Kim has done many very good triple loops as well. Part of the reason she dropped it was her hip problems in the late 2000s, similar to what Kwan dealt with later in her career; and then when her hip had gotten better, well there was just no reason to put it back by then. Although you also seem to be missing the point of what I mentioned earlier as well that under 6.0 judges looked as one of the harder 3-3s (the kinds Kim does in her sleep, and which Kwan could never do) as being worth atleast an extra triple (despite the crappy Bonaly still unable to win big events even with all that, but that is Bonaly). Something like a triple toe-triple toe was even worth about half a triple of extra credit in the judges eyes under 6.0 mind you.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    I have to make the case for Michelle's 7-triple Red Violin program at 2000 Worlds. And not only on tech. Her second mark in this program (and in many other programs) would beat Yu Na here.

    ETA: I don't think her Les Mis program at Worlds is better than her 2010 Oly LP, either. In many ways, they are the same program, in terms of content (with a few adjustments for the changes in scoring). But her 2010 program had better music and, in my opinion, better artistry.
    I think Yu Na's best program, and best performance, was her LP at 2011 Worlds. Unfortunately, she made mistakes on several of her jumps that kept it from being among her best technically. But her footwork, the placement of the spiral and the overall choreography were all superb. Skated without mistakes, it would have had a few 6.0s for presentation under the old system, I think.
    I agree with all you said. I thought I was the only one who prefered Kwans 2000 Worlds LP to 2001. Both were oustanding and great to see her win with both, but I much preferred 2000 of the two. It is a shame she skated first in the final flight so was undermarked as it was good enough for a 5.9 technically and a 6.0 in presentation otherwise, especialy had she skated after lackluster Butyrskaya and Slutskaya that night.

    I also think Kim's 2011 Worlds LP had potential to be her best program and performance ever artistically, and had she had the technical level of skating she often displays, her best ever all around. It is a shame she just wasnt fully ready for those Worlds. It is too bad we didnt see her more with Peter Oppergard, and to see even more of what he could have brought to her. Her few weaknesses like foot turnout and extensions were much improved under him. Kim is good friends with the Kwans too, so I was also surprised she didnt stay under the comfort of working with the elder Kwans husband, but maybe she missed home life in Korea by then, and being away in North America so long and so many yeras.

  5. #50
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    This assumes that the function of scoring rewards the events on the ice. As numerous posts have pointed out, this is sadly not always the case. In the most optimistic light, scores reflect a body of good skating work and simply note a desire to not punish a skater for 1 bad performance that season. In the less optimistic lens, scores reflect politics, preconceived notions about the skaters that refuse to allow the better skaters to actually win the competition, and simply exercising caprice to hold up things they think skating ought to be. I will say this: ordinals and 6.0 had the obvious advantage of being easily digested by the viewing public. Conversely, the other perverse advantage is that the audience might boo or ooh or ahh at abnormal scoring, but the computing of 2 scores and mentally trying to figure out where that would arrange that particular skater across 9 judges was nearly impossible, thus there was an air of credibility (legitimate or not) that accompanied that system.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by emdee View Post
    His edge skills were developed by rigorously training of figures. He just utilizes these to gain points in COP. He would have used them differently under 6.0
    Patrick's blade skills is as good as Kurt Browning's. If Kurt could dominate under 6.0, so can Patrick. Similarly, Kurt Browning would have no problem dominating under IJS too.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    I REALLY don't want to drag this thread into another Chan bash/defend festival, but under 6.0 Denis Ten would be World Champion right now.

    6.0 favored consistency. To win, skaters had to do well in both Short and Long. Although, of course, everyone wanted to win every phase of the competition, you were still master of your fate if you could finish the SP in the Top 3.
    I very much doubt this statement. Under 6.0, the skaters who didn't have stellar reputations but beat the skaters who had had long lasting good records were the skaters who had had outstanding technical content such as Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes. What Ten has had was mearly an average tech content, no-fall, cautious skating. He at least wouldn't have beaten Hanyu in LP under 6.0. And Ten wouldn't have finished top 3 in SP either. Ten has actually benefited from inflated PCS scores in LP. He and/or his supporters cannot ask for more. His coach Frank Carroll knows that. They are in cloud-nine already with the silver.

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    The title is who can dominate....

    Hm. I disagree with Chan and Buttle. Patrick can't skate clean programs, he has too many mistakes, and under the 6.0 the skaters made a little mistake and lost the comnpetition. The skating skills weren't so important.

    Jeff had no quad.

    .
    That's because his programs were designed to fit CoP with massive transitions. He was able to skate perfectly clean and artistic Elegy show program with less transitions. So there is no doubt that he is able to adapt any kinds of scoring systems unlike some of the skaters from 6.0 era. In fact, I believe, top skaters under CoP could be easily top skaters under 6.0. But not the same could be said for 6.0 skaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Chan is an interesting case. He is the master of the CoP. He knows under what rock each tenth of a point is hiding, and he knows how to gather enough of them that it doesn’t really matter about the mistakes. His Elegy exhibition program shows that he is capable of skating beautifully, and his Elegy short program shows that he can switch gears and grab up the CoP points instead.
    Exactly!

    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Well, he could never dominate under 6.0 because he falls too much. He would not win any major titles with multiple falls in the LP. I suppose a hypothetical skater who skates like Chan but doesn't fall could do well, but that isn't Patrick.
    Chan would have skated 6.0 friendly programs like his Elegy show program instead of CoP friendly programs. So he wouldn't have fallen, or fallen that much.

  8. #53
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    My comment on Ten/Chan was more along the lines of ordinals.

    Ten's second place in SP and win in LP would have made him WC.

    Now... whether you believe that manipulation of placements would have altered those results... well, who knows?

    As you note, lower ranked skaters were sometimes held back, even after outstanding performances. It's one of the reasons I'm not a proponent of totally ditching IJS, but I definitely think the system has to be tweaked in some fashion. I think there have been some improvements in skating since IJS, but something is still not right.

    Edit: I disagree to some extent that Ten's technical content was "average." I'm not sure how many skaters delivered quads in both short and long, 3A in both, the usual variety of triples... and managed not to fall a single time. It certainly wasn't average, at least not in that WC.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I agree with all you said. I thought I was the only one who prefered Kwans 2000 Worlds LP to 2001. Both were oustanding and great to see her win with both, but I much preferred 2000 of the two. It is a shame she skated first in the final flight so was undermarked as it was good enough for a 5.9 technically and a 6.0 in presentation otherwise, especialy had she skated after lackluster Butyrskaya and Slutskaya that night.

    I also think Kim's 2011 Worlds LP had potential to be her best program and performance ever artistically, and had she had the technical level of skating she often displays, her best ever all around. It is a shame she just wasnt fully ready for those Worlds. It is too bad we didnt see her more with Peter Oppergard, and to see even more of what he could have brought to her. Her few weaknesses like foot turnout and extensions were much improved under him. Kim is good friends with the Kwans too, so I was also surprised she didnt stay under the comfort of working with the elder Kwans husband, but maybe she missed home life in Korea by then, and being away in North America so long and so many yeras.
    I actually prefer 2000's performance as well though 2001 is a very close 2nd. Michelle was cornered in 2000 and had to skate perfectly in order to win and she did. It was a 7 triple program packed with a ton of speed and attack; she murdered that program and it was fabulous!

    As for Yu-Na's 2011 FS, I agree. I still think that is her most stunning FS to date and I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that she brings it back next season. It didn't get the chance it deserved to shine in a competitive setting b/c she wasn't as ready as she needed to be that year. The music and choreography were very different from anything else out there and I thought it could be a masterpiece if she skated it to its potential.

    Les Mis was a nice program but it felt very generic/ho-hum coming after Homage (and Gershwin too). I felt like Yu-Na and David really put forth the effort to make Homage very special and unique...watching Les Mis, I didn't get that feeling. It was run-of-the-mill Wilson choreography set to run-of-the-mill music. After the amazing-ness that was Homage, Les Mis was a let down IMO.

    I'm fine with her leaving Oppegard simply b/c she seems to be much more at ease and comfortable under the coaches she has now. Being at home seems to be working well for her.

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    I have no idea if Ten would have won the Worlds under 6.0 but Patrick Chan certainly wouldnt have. He would have probably been about 9th in the long program under 6.0, maybe 6th or 7th if he were very lucky. He wouldnt have won the 2012 Worlds under 6.0 either, and about 70% of the events he has won. Notice how nobody mentions him as a skater who could dominate both judging systems. There is a reason for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    As you note, lower ranked skaters were sometimes held back, even after outstanding performances. It's one of the reasons I'm not a proponent of totally ditching IJS, but I definitely think the system has to be tweaked in some fashion. I think there have been some improvements in skating since IJS, but something is still not right.
    I agree with this. I don't think anyone has ever claimed that IJS is perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Edit: I disagree to some extent that Ten's technical content was "average." I'm not sure how many skaters delivered quads in both short and long, 3A in both, the usual variety of triples... and managed not to fall a single time. It certainly wasn't average, at least not in that WC.
    LP:

    Ten: one 4T, two 3As, and 4 other triples
    Chan: one 4T, one 4T-3T, one 3A, and 4 other triples. fell twice
    Hanyu: one 4T, one 4S, two 3As, and 5 other triples
    Fernandez: one 4T, one 4S, one 3A, and 4 other triples
    Mura: one 4T, two 3As, and 6 other triples
    Aron: one 4S, two 3As, and 5 other triples
    Reynolds: one 4S, one 4T, one 4T-3T, one 3A, and 4 other triples
    Takahashi: one 4T, 2 3As, and 5 other triples. fell once
    Rogozine: one 4T, 2 3As, and 6 other triples
    Joubert: one 4T, one 4T-1T, one 3A, and 5 other triples. 3F invalid.
    Also:
    Brezina: two 4Ss. fell twice.
    Minor: 4S
    Kovtun: 4T-2T, 4T
    Amodio: 4S (fell)
    Majorov: 4T (fell)


    SP:

    Chan: 4T-3T, 3A, 3Lz
    Ten: 4T, 3A, 3F-3T
    Reynolds: 4S-3T, 3A, 4T
    Takahashi: 4T, 3A, 3Lz-3T
    Joubert: 4T-2T, 3A, 3Lz
    Brezina: 4S, 3A, 3F-3T
    Fernandez: 4S, 1A, 3Lz-3T
    Aron: 4S-2T, 3A, 3Lz
    Hanyu: 4T, (fell), 3A, 3Lz
    Also:
    Song and Verner did 4T too.

    you could see that Ten's tech content was average. Nothing was outstanding.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Lu Chen landed 5 triples at the 1995 Worlds, not 6. Surya Bonaly also had two triple-triples that night, so not just 7 triples, but 7 triples with two triple-triples (which is atleast the value of an additional triple under 6.0 so it was basically a skater doing 5 triples vs one doing 9 or 10). Chen also didnt even do a 2nd triple lutz which was a big minus then. Granted 1 or 2 of Bonaly's landings were questionable, including the back end of one of her triple-triples, but stilll..... Yet Bonaly still lost, not that I am disagreeing with that, I still agreed with Chen's win, but their triple quota was not close in anyway either.
    Surya had under-rotations and was more than half a rotation short of her 3F+3T (3F+3T<<, second 3Z<, and even the 3S in the combo was a close-call). But she was far more ambitious than Chen in attempting the 3-3 combos, the 2A-2A sequence, and Chen doubled her second lutz. Chen only executed 5 triples, but they were solid and with good flow (except maybe the flip). But perhaps the judges noted Bonaly's under-rotations, and didn't credit her with attempting such high technical content. But IMO, their clean triple quota was close.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    My comment on Ten/Chan was more along the lines of ordinals.

    Ten's second place in SP and win in LP would have made him WC.

    Now... whether you believe that manipulation of placements would have altered those results... well, who knows?

    As you note, lower ranked skaters were sometimes held back, even after outstanding performances. It's one of the reasons I'm not a proponent of totally ditching IJS, but I definitely think the system has to be tweaked in some fashion. I think there have been some improvements in skating since IJS, but something is still not right.

    Edit: I disagree to some extent that Ten's technical content was "average." I'm not sure how many skaters delivered quads in both short and long, 3A in both, the usual variety of triples... and managed not to fall a single time. It certainly wasn't average, at least not in that WC.
    I agree Ten's performance was not average and was definitely above average though the jump content was average. However, he was quite slow and in some parts laboured. This was clearly visible for anyone present at the event and sometimes these things are hard to see on TV. He has a lot of charm as a skater and I had high hopes for him after Olys in 2010 but he has not lived up to his rep or ability as he has been very inconsistent over the years. One has yet to see whether his worlds performance is an aberration or will be the norm for him.

  14. #59
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    Skaters who I would believe WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DOMINATE both in IJS & 6.0:

    Kurt Browning
    The Brians
    Elvis Stojko
    Alexei Yagudin
    Evgeni Plushenko

    Midori Ito
    Michelle Kwan
    YuNa Kim

    Gordeeva/Grinkov
    Shen/Zhao

    Tovill/Dean
    Grishuk/Platov
    Virtue/Moir
    Davis/White

    To answer this particular question, we rather NEED to consider and pick up those who actually did dominate/stay on top for a number of years in either system, I think.

  15. #60
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    Why patrick chan is considering in this thread? he will be much weaker under 6.0 than IJS

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