Peggy Fleming said (Is MK the best?)

since when prettykeys and jaylee yuna are ubers? they never trash any skater on this board instead they even praise other skaters they like.

and i find it insulting when you said "Homage was likely very moving for Koreans due to music." i'm not even a korean. i'm a filipino and i find homage moving and beautiful.

I find it very amusing how skateluvr is always on a high horse, condescendingly call Yuna Kim supporters "ubers" and act like he or she is objectively criticizing any figure skater.

skateluvr said:

As for Jaylee and Prettykeys, you are ubers of YuNa and see much in her and cannot be unbiased perhaps due to ethnic loyalty.

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Ethnic loyalty???? My ethnicity is irrelevant to this conversation. My assessment of your post was based on what you wrote, not your ethnicity. Obviously, that's not true of your statement, which reflects extremely very poorly on you. If you argue with someone who is defending Barack Obama, and they happen to have the same ethnicity as the President, would you claim they cannot be unbiased because of ethnic loyalty?

Gross.

Attacking me will not make you look more correct in opinions. I speak from the heart, and Prettykeys, you should not attack people like Jaylee did. My assessment of Yuna is honest. To say I hate Yuna is stupid, ignorant and untrue. She deserved her OGM and this world medal.

I won't comment further as it is not worth my time. My compliments to Yuna are front handed and obvious. I admire her and hope she becomes a great force for good in Asia. If my comments remind you of others, well, her strengths are obvious now after all these years as her weaknesses. I think I'm entitled to say Caro is magnificent in her skating. Goddess and Queen are ok, yes? Or shall we call people who refer to "Queen" anybody in skating as biased crazies.

Allow people to express opinions, even if they are criticisms of your beloved Yuna. I like and enjoy her skating, and I'm allowed to express what I don't like. Accept it or don't. Maturity allows for diverse opinions. Please both of you remember you are in relationship to others here on GS by discourse. I'm sure you will never talk to YuNa Kim, unless in a huge passing mob.

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I don't attack people, I disagree with opinions. Don't mis-characterize what I said just because you don't like being challenged. People are allowed to express opinions that are critical of Yu-Na--or in support of her. I'm allowed to express opinions right back. It's absurd that critics think they can issue their opinions and be entitled to everyone falling down in agreement, and then tell those that disagree to "allow people to express opinions." Um, duh? The only thing is that it works both ways. You can post your opinion and I can reply right back.

And I hate no figures kater Jaylee. Get that straight. I like so very many, and I'm not part of the cr-- that goes on between certain groups. Let us hope the bots and trolls don't ruin another Olympic season. You were very blunt so I am responding in kind. "Hater" is an attack word. There are emotions between love and hate for a skater. I like many, love a few and "hate" no one. Please google the definition before you toss that at me or anyone else. Best wishes and I'm sure YuNa will win. Is that positive enough for a "hater'? Please watch your language. It seems you hate those who have any criticism of YuNa that you disagree with. But I hope I'm wrong.

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I call it like I see it. Why don't you examine your own posts and see what in them made me say that? Only a hater spends so much time expressing so much negativity towards a skater that they profess to admire, protesting so much against the "ubers" who dare to think that skater is one of the best.

And no, I don't hate those whom I disagree with who have criticism of Yu-Na, or Michelle, or Jeremy Abbott, or any skater whose skating I love and admire, of which there are many. Quite frankly, I don't waste emotional energy on that sort of stuff. At the end of the day, being a figure skating fan is only a small part of my life.

I do strongly dislike unbalanced and unfounded criticism of a skater masquerading as objective criticism or the TRUTH!

skateluvr said:

ETA: Toller did indeed make the observation I read not long after Vancouver. I recall that. And I agree with his premise though I liked those skates and rewatch them. I'm sorry but Yuna will never have what MK offers-the total love, joy and expression of flight she translates the best.Per Sandra Bezic. CoP rewards other things. I will be open to her last season, but yes, I don't expect her flaws to disappear. I enjoy her for what she does do better than anyone. I still prefer many 6.0 skates because of the simplicity/purity. Maybe if you get it you will be less in' attack the poster' mode.:yes:

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*shrug* You need to go re-read my previous post. Toller said that Yu-Na's Vancouver performances weren't emotionally memorable. I didn't dispute Toller saying that. I cited evidence that Canadian artists not only remembered Yu-Na's Vancouver performances but memorialized them in a work of art for more Canadians and other international visitors to enjoy and remember. So as hard as you've tried to diminish Yu-Na and minimize her accomplishments as a skater with big jumps who is not the best in any other category (your words, not mine), it's obvious that she did indeed touch some hearts with her performances, which are being remembered.

You and Toller and anyone else is completely entitled to not be touched by her performances. But it is arrogant and wrong for Toller or anyone to assume that if a skater's performances weren't the most memorable or emotional performances for them, therefore they are not memorable or emotional at all for anyone.

heyang said:

As Mathman said, a lot depends on the criteria of 'greatness'. Is it OGM? World Medals? # of iconic programs? Recognition by non-skating fans?

For me, I don't necessarily include the # of overall medals as they are associated with longevity in the sport. Very few stay in at the top for 4+ years.

Neither Kurt nor Michele won OGM, but I don't think that anyone can say that they weren't great skaters because of that 1 lacking piece of hardware. Can one honestly say that Sarah Hughes and Tara Lipiniski were clearly better than Michele? That Urmanov will be remembered more than Kurt Browning? Of course, that's my North American view.

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OGM is not a "sufficient" condition for being regarded as the greatest skater of all time.
Just because a skater has one, it doesn't automatically enter her into the conversation.
Baiul, Lipinski, Hughes, Arakawa... we can go on and on.

However, OGM is a "necessary" condition for being considered as the greatest of all time.

If we were to pick the greatest physicist of the 21st century, wouldn't it be odd to consider someone who hasn't won the Nobel Prize?

Let's bring the example to similar judged sports. Would it be fathomable to regard someone without an OGM as the greatest all-time athlete in gymnastics or diving? Uh... No.

Sorry, but the hardware is necessary.

Michelle had three chances. She participated in two and pulled herself out due to injury in the third.

One thing's for sure: she'll always be in the mix as the greatest figure skater of all time who didn't win the OGM.

skate4ever said:

If we were to pick the greatest physicist of the 21st century, wouldn't it be odd to consider someone who hasn't won the Nobel Prize?

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That's an interesting example, because the greatest physicist of the twentieth century (Albert Einstein) never received a Nobel Prize for the scientific work that made him the century's greatest physicist (general relativity, 1916). Instead, in 1921 the Nobel Prize people figured they ought to give Einstein something for his contributions to science, so they dug up a minor paper from 1905 on the photoelectric effect and gave him the prize for that.

It would be like the IOC suddenly realizing that they forgot to give an Olympic gold medal to Michelle, so a few years later they decided to give her one retroactively for her exhibition number (Fields of Gold) at the 2002 Olympics. (I am going to get up a petition. ).

I'll sign, Math.

skateluvr said:

[...]
Allow people to express opinions, even if they are criticisms of your beloved Yuna. I like and enjoy her skating, and I'm allowed to express what I don't like. Accept it or don't. Maturity allows for diverse opinions. Please both of you remember you are in relationship to others here on GS by discourse. I'm sure you will never talk to YuNa Kim, unless in a huge passing mob.
[...]

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Just as you express opinions contrary to those of Yuna fans, so do they express disagreements with yours. Freedom of expression goes both ways. You are certainly "allowed" to say anything you wish about Yuna, but just because some fan may explicitly disagree with your assessment of her, doesn't mean they're trampling on your right to express your opinion.

On the other hand, insinuating racism ("ethnic loyalty" in your words) on the part of Yuna ubers is not indicative of "respect" for others' opinion or "maturity". It is patently false that only Koreans are devoted fans of Yuna--I myself am not Korean or even remotely related to one. She has many fans from the around world, not all of them of Korean descent, who admire her.

Mathman said:

That's an interesting example, because the greatest physicist of the twentieth century (Albert Einstein) never received a Nobel Prize for the scientific work that made him the century's greatest physicist (general relativity, 1916). Instead, in 1921 the Nobel Prize people figured they ought to give Einstein something for his contributions to science, so they dug up a minor paper from 1905 on the photoelectric effect and gave him the prize for that.

It would be like the IOC suddenly realizing that they forgot to give an Olympic gold medal to Michelle, so a few years later they decided to give her one retroactively for her exhibition number (Fields of Gold) at the 2002 Olympics. (I am going to get up a petition. ).

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Mathman, you're so awesome . I'll totally sign that petition BTW...


Regarding what was said earlier, I do think it's very out of line to insinuate a person's ethnicity plays into their love or hate of a skater. I'm not Korean or any kind of Asian but I think Yu-Na's Homage program is the most moving program she has ever done to date.

Just my 2 cents...

Mathman said:

That's an interesting example, because the greatest physicist of the twentieth century (Albert Einstein) never received a Nobel Prize for the scientific work that made him the century's greatest physicist (general relativity, 1916). Instead, in 1921 the Nobel Prize people figured they ought to give Einstein something for his contributions to science, so they dug up a minor paper from 1905 on the photoelectric effect and gave him the prize for that.

It would be like the IOC suddenly realizing that they forgot to give an Olympic gold medal to Michelle, so a few years later they decided to give her one retroactively for her exhibition number (Fields of Gold) at the 2002 Olympics. (I am going to get up a petition. ).

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I always thought it was a huge shame that Nikola Tesla did not get a Nobel Prize. He is one of my favourite figures in science and had a fascinating, if somewhat tragic, life.

And one of the reasons that I like him isn't because I'm an ethnic Serbian.

skate4ever said:

OGM is not a "sufficient" condition for being regarded as the greatest skater of all time.
Just because a skater has one, it doesn't automatically enter her into the conversation.
Baiul, Lipinski, Hughes, Arakawa... we can go on and on.

However, OGM is a "necessary" condition for being considered as the greatest of all time.

If we were to pick the greatest physicist of the 21st century, wouldn't it be odd to consider someone who hasn't won the Nobel Prize?

Let's bring the example to similar judged sports. Would it be fathomable to regard someone without an OGM as the greatest all-time athlete in gymnastics or diving? Uh... No.

Sorry, but the hardware is necessary.

Michelle had three chances. She participated in two and pulled herself out due to injury in the third.

One thing's for sure: she'll always be in the mix as the greatest figure skater of all time who didn't win the OGM.

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What are we talking about here? Because the best "skater" could be taken in multiple ways:

1) As strictly "figure skater": One who best skates figures, or the modern incarnation of figure skating. The one who best typifies those qualities of "good figure skating." The best at the "nuts and bolts" of figure skating. Or

2) as strictly "competitor": The competition record of one who competes in figure skating competitions. Or

3) as "performer": The person who best conveys... whatever they're trying to convey with what they're doing. The person who captivates audiences the best. Or

4) combination of all three.


As figure skating is what it is because it combines sport with art (at its best), could we all agree that someone who has the highest composite of 1-3 (which is my 4) would be the best? Therefore, to be the "best", I would say having the OGM is not a "necessary" or a "sufficient" criteria for being considered the best. It may well be that, if there were a way of quantitatively factoring all these qualities to get an unbiased score of a figure skater that could be compared, the "best" figure skater would have won an OGM. On the other hand, that person may not have won an OGM, but would have won an Olympic Medal of some type; or even, may not have won an Olympic medal of ANY color (something I find highly unlikely, but, eh.)

However, the "performer" aspect would most likely NEVER be able to be quantified, because it is a relative criteria for each person. (I suppose we could use statistics, and, if we had a large enough population of data, could use averages.) But, I digress. Also, people put FAR too much weight on OGMs, while giving very LITTLE value to Olympic Silver AND Bronze. Also, not all OGMs are equal, because the competition isn't the same. Some have won it in weak cycles. Others have won it with fierce competition. Some have lost it while skating clean, but tentative. Some have won it with flawed skates. It is ONE competition. True, it is every four years, and is the biggest prize and stage in Figure Skating, but at the end of the day, it is one competition. (Don't twist this around to mean that I undervalue its importance, either.)

What I'm trying to say is: There are many ways to look at this.

kwanatic said:

Mathman, you're so awesome . I'll totally sign that petition BTW...


Regarding what was said earlier, I do think it's very out of line to insinuate a person's ethnicity plays into their love or hate of a skater. I'm not Korean or any kind of Asian but I think Yu-Na's Homage program is the most moving program she has ever done to date.

Just my 2 cents...

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Two bad no more pennies I hear in Canada. As for the rest - "Oh BROTHER!!!!" We ened the olympic season to start fast - it's going to be a long summer.

Wow, gee, I just realized non-Koreans like Yuna, just like me-such dazzling revelation. And I'm so racist usually. I'm done with that comparison. Kween Kwan rules as of today-for me-that's all.

Just fascetious-My fave skaters span the globe though more than a few are Chinese-I guess I wanna be someone else, LOL.

As for Yuna skates-Lark is her best young effort and her most moving skate for me. It seems she is moved by the music. I like Danse Macabre from young Yuna, and her Oly performances were very good though not emotional skates, but after seeing Joannie skate-nothing was going to touch that for me. Les Mis is I feel her best effort by far since Vancouver. I wish her team well in choosing her music. I hope this will be her best ever, the skates that she truly feels. I feel her connection to audience could improve a lot-presentation marks used to reflect this, but maybe not so much anymore?

i will say so, but alot of other fans of other skaters may not.

to me the best is base on popularity. why-we bring it up every year, every olympic season and each person chimes in with their favorite and defends why for a list of various reasons.

you can't compare due to several factors
1) jumps that was tried/did during different years was /wasnn't included like triples/ double singles
2) the rules change every year to favor unfavor certain type of skaters
example pcs 2006 had higher scores/ pcs for spins than did now,
also had figures all of which counted versus 60%, 40%, 30%, 20% versus none
3) had to go through qualifying rounds and than that changed, 1st only people who didn't make it to final had to do qualifying rounds
than in 1996-2002 all skaters including medalist had to qualifying round to get into short program
in fact in 2006 worlds the qualifying round kept sasha from the silver medal, and in 2005 kept michelle from the bronze medal.
yun didn't have to go through quailfying round to get into short program

4) combinations jumps were not done in short, late required in short
5) the lenght of the free program was added from low of 2 minutes and 50 seconds to what not 4 minutes and 30 seconds for ladies and almost 5 minutes
for men
6) no triples/quads are mandatory
7) falls counted more in 6'0s you fell in 1990 - to 2004 . you didn't win especially 2-3 times and if you fell in short and rival skated clean you ususally was relagetd to 4th place and had to
hope your top rival fell and someone beat that person to win

8) different judges/

just too many different aspects

yes i think michelle is the best for 1) had to skate clean short/long to win. the short program was a placement. had to do usually 7 jumps in her program
had to interpert and connect with the audience and judges to stay up on top. had to stay ahead of tara, sarah, irina, sasha, shizuka, fumie, maria, julia all the while people, media and federation knocking her for just doing a triple toe/triple toe when she did a triple /triple. staying in 1994 to 2005/2006 listening to grips, complaints, wants , needs of sponspors, federation, fans and media, would be hard. plus keeping in mind what she wanted.

tara i wished would have stayed in . i was acutually looking forward to it. she didn't. she chose her path, like sarah, happy for both of them. both could have done more if applied themselves especially sarah when she came back in 2003. yes, she was injured but i felt she gave up a worlds.


yuna would be next choice

but all skaters are great

i think michelle/irina/tara, sarah,lu chen was great.

i think yuna-mao/ mike carolina kosnter are great

it just how you look at it

different eras/times/rules, jumps, combination/judges make it different because they judge and won according to those rules/jumps, situations, combinations at that time not according to now.

Mathman said:

Here is my contribution to the zettabytes.

1. Romanza 1996 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q

2. Salome 1996 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s

3. Rachmaninov 1998 Nationals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHfgjszz_Tk

4. Lyra Angelica 1998 Nationals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPRcajUQrM

5. East of Eden 1998 World Pro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcYTdxyoehk

6. Red Violin 2000 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptj_tO7tIXg

7. Song of the Black Swan 2001 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhXa9JYtwLY

8. Fields of Gold 2002 Olympic exhibition

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wazOhkRuySI

9. Aranjuez 2003 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfluAux0Sf0

10. Tosca 2004 Nationals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQSoIEAxns

Body of work.

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Yay, thank you. This is like coming across a favorite movie you've watched 100 times on cable TV. It just has to be watched... one more time. I'm going down the list starting.... now.