Peggy Fleming said (Is MK the best?) | Golden Skate

Peggy Fleming said (Is MK the best?)

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
in a documentary I saw on youtube a few years back that in twenty years Kwan would be called the greatest skater to have lived. I assume she meant ladies single skater. Yay or nay and why? Th sport changed so fast as MK was a 6.0 skater.

Is MK already an orange from the past not to be compared to IJS apples? What of Peggy's prophecy?:confused:
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Given that Michelle is always mentioned when talked about skating greats, I think Peggy was a wise one. :)
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
This is clearly gonna be another Kwan vs. X/Y/Z thread for the "Greatest of All Time" title...:slink:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This topic always comes down to the question of what criteria we should use in our judgment. Here’s mine.

Suppose that the world is coming to an end and we want to leave behind a time capsule to be found by the Martians when they rediscover earth a million years in the future, so that they will know what figure skating was all about. We can choose one skater and ten programs, with the top performance of each program. Who would we choose?

Michelle Kwan is the only skater for whom we would have a big dilemma as to which programs to include and which, with great reluctance, we would have to omit since we can have only ten.

This is the “body of work” criterion. :yes:
 

jatale

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Of course all this debate is just ridiculous. In the big scheme of things, none of our current skating heroes will be anything but footnotes buried somewhere in the mountains of zettabytes of data stored in the successor to the WWW a couple hundred years from now.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Here is my contribution to the zettabytes. :)

1. Romanza 1996 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q

2. Salome 1996 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s

3. Rachmaninov 1998 Nationals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHfgjszz_Tk

4. Lyra Angelica 1998 Nationals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPRcajUQrM

5. East of Eden 1998 World Pro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcYTdxyoehk

6. Red Violin 2000 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptj_tO7tIXg

7. Song of the Black Swan 2001 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhXa9JYtwLY

8. Fields of Gold 2002 Olympic exhibition

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wazOhkRuySI

9. Aranjuez 2003 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfluAux0Sf0

10. Tosca 2004 Nationals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQSoIEAxns

Body of work. ;)
 

Rachmaninoff

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Which skater is "greatest" would likely be a never-ending debate, since everyone's got a different idea of how that should be determined. But most loved, most revered, most memorable, leaving the greatest impact on those who watched her performances? Yes, I'd say those things of Kwan.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I think Peggy's statement is very North America-centric, because there are superior arguments for Witt, Kim and a few others to be called the greatest.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I think it is possible in the U.S most consider her the best ever (but not even sure on that) but in the rest of the World I dont think so. Her lack of an Olympic Gold prevents her from having a serious claim to the title IMO.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I think Michelle will be deemed one of the greatest but she may have problems with that title if Yuna wins a second olympic title. And there are the protopopovs, Irina Rodina and her partners, Torvill and Dean, Klimova and Pomanoranko, Sonja Henjie, Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hammil, Plushenko Yagudin, Witt(though she is more the best ever competitior), Gordeeva and Grinkov no olympic gold will dim her lights.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think it is possible in the U.S most consider her the best ever (but not even sure on that) but in the rest of the World I dont think so.

I think that is true. People outside the U.S. do not have any especial regard for Michelle. She was a good skater among many good staters.

But in the U.S., if skating continues its decline, she might be remembered -- well, maybe not as the greatest U.S. skater, but as the last of the great U.S. skaters.

And maybe she will be the U.S. Senator from Rhode Island one day. :)
 

heyang

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
As Mathman said, a lot depends on the criteria of 'greatness'. Is it OGM? World Medals? # of iconic programs? Recognition by non-skating fans?

For me, I don't necessarily include the # of overall medals as they are associated with longevity in the sport. Very few stay in at the top for 4+ years.

Neither Kurt nor Michele won OGM, but I don't think that anyone can say that they weren't great skaters because of that 1 lacking piece of hardware. Can one honestly say that Sarah Hughes and Tara Lipiniski were clearly better than Michele? That Urmanov will be remembered more than Kurt Browning? Of course, that's my North American view.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
As Mathman said, a lot depends on the criteria of 'greatness'. Is it OGM? World Medals? # of iconic programs? Recognition by non-skating fans?

For me, I don't necessarily include the # of overall medals as they are associated with longevity in the sport. Very few stay in at the top for 4+ years.

Neither Kurt nor Michele won OGM, but I don't think that anyone can say that they weren't great skaters because of that 1 lacking piece of hardware. Can one honestly say that Sarah Hughes and Tara Lipiniski were clearly better than Michele? That Urmanov will be remembered more than Kurt Browning? Of course, that's my North American view.

There are alot of factors. I agree it certainly isnt just medal count. There are many factors besides achievements and the quality of your career record, and there are many more to a skaters career record and achievements than just an Olympic Gold. That said however for me anyway (or for alot of other people) THE greatest ever if such a title should even exist (which it arguably shouldnt, especialy in sports where there isnt a clear cut stand out like Jordan or Phelps), the title can never go to someone who failed to win the biggest event in the sport. That of course goes for not only Kwan but Kurt Browning, and anyone else who didnt win the Olympic Gold. Of course they can still be and are amongst the greatest skaters ever, just not the greatest skater ever. Olympic Gold is definitely a prerequisite for anyone to be given the label of best ever.

It is one thing to say well Urmanov, Kulik, Hughes, and Lipinski have Olympic Golds and I wouldnt say they are better than Kwan or Browning. Well I agree they arent, but what about skaters who also dominated and won numerous Worlds, but have the Olympic Gold on top of that (or some skaters even multiple). Poor Browning doesnt even have an Olympic medal of any color which love him as I do, is an undeniable blotch on his career and legacy. Atleast Kwan has 2 Olympic medals which is quite respectable.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
For me, I don't necessarily include the # of overall medals as they are associated with longevity in the sport. Very few stay in at the top for 4+ years.

I wouldn't weigh longevity too much because it was only possible for Michelle to stay eligible for so long because the USFSA could compensate her almost as well as professional opportunities. Not to diminish her accomplishments, but rather to say that skaters in the pre-Nacncy-Tonya era like Kristi might have won more titles had it been economically feasible to remain eligible. Had she stayed 2 more years, Kristi could have easily won everything with her jump content.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Here is my contribution to the zettabytes. :)

1. Romanza 1996 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q

2. Salome 1996 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s

3. Rachmaninov 1998 Nationals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHfgjszz_Tk

4. Lyra Angelica 1998 Nationals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPRcajUQrM

5. East of Eden 1998 World Pro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcYTdxyoehk

6. Red Violin 2000 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptj_tO7tIXg

7. Song of the Black Swan 2001 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhXa9JYtwLY

8. Fields of Gold 2002 Olympic exhibition

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wazOhkRuySI

9. Aranjuez 2003 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfluAux0Sf0

10. Tosca 2004 Nationals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQSoIEAxns

Body of work. ;)
this is a great MK list esp for the kids that joined a few years back from Yunaverse. I think Yuna would herself say MK was a better performer, though not jumper. Yuna only out jumps Kwan and skates faster. Yuna does not have the MK body of work-never will tho she may win OGM again-but without her jumps? Sasha Cohen is far more elegant with no jumps. Sorry, but I agree with MM criterion.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I don't think one can choose a single greatest skater for several reasons: personal preference, cultural/national taste and pride, and the fact that things like jumps are always advancing. But you can make a skating pantheon in which you list the greatest skaters, plural. I think that no matter how many centuries pass, Michelle will belong in such a pantheon, just as Kurt Browning will despite lack of an Olympic medal. Everyone doesn't have to vote yes in order to qualify someone for the pantheon. YuNa will be there too, of course. I wouldn't presume to try to measure which one of those two, or Witt or Rodnina or Henie, is THE greatest of all time.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I wouldn't weigh longevity too much because it was only possible for Michelle to stay eligible for so long because the USFSA could compensate her almost as well as professional opportunities. Not to diminish her accomplishments, but rather to say that skaters in the pre-Nacncy-Tonya era like Kristi might have won more titles had it been economically feasible to remain eligible. Had she stayed 2 more years, Kristi could have easily won everything with her jump content.

People expected Kristi to atleast stay until 1994 but she chose not to after getting her Olympic Gold in 92. I think she easily could have done so, she just didnt want to. Yes she would have won anything up through and including 1994, and even 1995 atleast if she chose to go past Lillehammer, and would have been contending for gold up until 97 or 98 possibly.
 
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