Peggy Fleming said (Is MK the best?)
- Thread starter skateluvr
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- Oct 19, 2009
It's not anybody's fault that nostalgic Kwan Krazies have to keep having these discussions every month or two and swiping at the modern skaters. Look at how many YuNa fans are fed up about it in just this thread.
Also, pot, kettle, black.
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- Mar 18, 2013
I wasn't tearing anyone down, I was just comparing the two. I am, in fact, a fan of Yuna's. I do cede that I do have rose-tinted glasses when it comes to Kwan cause she was my favorite growing up, and I have noticed her flaws as I have gotten older.
I love how "X was better than Y at Z" comes to mean "Y WAS TERRIBLE AT Z" Again, just a comparison, and I can really only do it by 6.0 standards, since Kwan really never competed with the CoP variations.
But whatever, I'm done with this thread, because instead of explaining things to those of us who never studied the biomechanics of Figure Skating and have only been fans, I get jumped on and told I am a liar. So you all can have this thread. I pray you aren't teachers or coaches.
I love how "X was better than Y at Z" comes to mean "Y WAS TERRIBLE AT Z" Again, just a comparison, and I can really only do it by 6.0 standards, since Kwan really never competed with the CoP variations.
But whatever, I'm done with this thread, because instead of explaining things to those of us who never studied the biomechanics of Figure Skating and have only been fans, I get jumped on and told I am a liar. So you all can have this thread. I pray you aren't teachers or coaches.
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- Oct 19, 2009
It's not "just" a comparison when you are actually putting down another skater's technique, and one that is actually considered superior to Kwan's on a specific jump called the Lutz. That's called leaving your biases unchecked at the door. Take it as a learning experience and next time don't make dubious claims--which you now admittedly know little about--and then retreat crying victim once you are called out on it.
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Lolz.
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- Mar 18, 2013
I mean, whatever, there's "calling people out on it" and then there's calling people liars and sheep. I was ignorant, not a liar. I'm not claiming I'm a victim, I'm just claiming the way in which people responded was rude and unnecessary. I'm old enough to know that my perspective is relatively uninformed, and as such, correction (and not rudeness) is needed. Thank you for clarifying it, I now know more about skating mechanics.
From a layman's perspective (mine), Yuna's lutz entrance just looks like many flip setups I've seen, until she slides over onto the outside edge before picking in. I guess that's what I meant, and I articulated it incorrectly. It's something I hadn't seen before (IIRC), and it looks like it works for her. However, the old-time lutzes were, as I was told (and have seen), long BO edges all the way into the jump.
JMO.
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- Jun 21, 2003
The aliens from outer space criterion is the only rational and objective way to settle the matter. This seems clear to me.
The funny thing, though, is that both of these skaters would feel honored to be compared to the other.
jaylee said:That said, the first time I heard British Eurosport commentators call out Michelle's flutz, I felt like I had just found out that there was no Santa Clause.
I know, right?
Especially when Dick Button praised the very edge that the Eurosport guys found wanting.
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- Jun 21, 2003
zschulktz1986 said:
As a fellow layman, here is something I never noticed until it was pointed out to me in one of these discussion on Golden Skate. Michelle changed her Lutz entry in the latter part of her career from the long gliding outside edge (which she often rolled toward the inside at the last moment) to an entrance on the other foot, putting her weight on the take-off foot only just before the jump. You can see the difference here.
Young filly, long edge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q#t=1m25s
Old grey mare, short edge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQSoIEAxns#t=1m15s
The reason this point struck such a nerve is that this Lutz combination caused Alois Lutz to rise from the grave, rejoicing and weeping in ecstasy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSOPMchie3o#t=0m52s
The entrance to a flip is either a three-turn or a mohawk. Reference: http://gofigureskating.com/skills/jumps/flipjump.html
Yu-Na is not doing either a three-turn or a mohawk before her lutz. (She does do a three-turn before her triple flip.) She basically glides backwards and changes edges a few times prior to her lutz, which is not like a flip entrance at all. She does that in order to accelerate prior to take-off.
Yu-Na is not the only skater who is not doing a long backwards glide into a lutz. Patrick Chan does a solo lutz in the SP and he does it after an intricate step sequence, then he puts his left skate down and takes off the outside edge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eF6j7GCF4Kk#t=154s
Btw, Yu-Na can certainly do a long backwards glide into her lutz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4P1-S5cFK-Y#t=52s
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- Mar 18, 2013
No worries, sorry that I was unclear. Also, thank you all for the clarifications. I didn't really ever consider the three turns or mohawks as part of the setup. Will look for it more often. from now on.
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- Oct 19, 2009
zschultz, just to clarify as well -- I wasn't calling you or anyone specific to this thread a "sheep"...it was a comment made about some hypocritical fans that I have encountered.
Here are two of my favourite classically long-edge set-up 3 Lutzes (done from the outside edge):
Oksana Baiul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_fvrG3f0fI&t=0m45s
Carolina Kostner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqYLMnyl8VA&t=2m12s
Here are two of my favourite classically long-edge set-up 3 Lutzes (done from the outside edge):
Oksana Baiul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_fvrG3f0fI&t=0m45s
Carolina Kostner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqYLMnyl8VA&t=2m12s
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So the next question is.... who changed Kim's (and Kwan's) lutz setups and why? I'm assuming Yuna's was Brian and Michelle's was Artunian? Is it easier to carry more speed into the jump with the "flatter" setup? Or easier to make sure the lutz edge is truly an outside one?
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- Jun 21, 2003
^ That's a great question, and I hope some knowledgable person will contribute an answer.
One difference is that the standard long BOE approach puts the actual jump way off in the "Lutz corner" -- the hardest place in the rink for the judges to see a flutz. The short approach usually goes straight down the center.
Alissa Czisny, for all her jump difficulties, actually has a pretty good Lutz. She said that in training the Lutz take-off her coach made her practice gliding all the way around the rink on a back outside edge.
One difference is that the standard long BOE approach puts the actual jump way off in the "Lutz corner" -- the hardest place in the rink for the judges to see a flutz.
The short approach usually goes straight down the center.Alissa Czisny, for all her jump difficulties, actually has a pretty good Lutz. She said that in training the Lutz take-off her coach made her practice gliding all the way around the rink on a back outside edge.
Yu-Na changed her lutz set-up in the SP for the 2005-2006 season, before Brian Orser was her coach. I don't have the definitive answer as to why, but the lutz was the required jump out of footwork that year in the juniors SP, so she started doing steps before it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mMZOaQnQKAs#t=123s
However, she still did the long backwards glide before the lutz in her FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=E-HhywydxrY#t=57s
Kostner does the long backwards glide into her lutz, but she takes so long that two judges deducted her at 2007 Worlds since that was her jump out of footwork in the SP, and there was too much of a break between the steps and the take-off for the lutz. (So at 2007 Worlds, Yu-Na got 1.71 +GOE for her lutz out of footwork; Carolina averaged +0.71.) Kostner mostly avoids the lutz in the SP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-XX1kxQLMsw#t=43s
I think she probably will. She's such a prodigy in so many ways. In fact, through the CoP era, no one has exceeded her gifts, except, sometimes, Mao (though in different details), and the only way YuNa has lost is when she has been off her feed somehow. At her best, she's pretty much unassailable in almost every way that can be measured.
I would, however, like to point out that there are aspects of skating that cannot be measured, and in those aspects, other skaters, not just YuNa, excel. This is a matter of the heart—the skaters' hearts and those of us fans—and cannot be quantified quite so easily.
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