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Thread: Peggy Fleming said (Is MK the best?)

  1. #61
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    I wouldn't be surprised if both Michelle and Yuna are, in the end, remembered more for their post-skating contributions to society.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I think she probably will. She's such a prodigy in so many ways. In fact, through the CoP era, no one has exceeded her gifts, except, sometimes, Mao (though in different details), and the only way YuNa has lost is when she has been off her feed somehow. At her best, she's pretty much unassailable in almost every way that can be measured.

    I would, however, like to point out that there are aspects of skating that cannot be measured, and in those aspects, other skaters, not just YuNa, excel. This is a matter of the heart—the skaters' hearts and those of us fans—and cannot be quantified quite so easily.
    Im was referring to what the media and non skating fans will remember
    while Michelle reigned in the late 90's to early 20's, the impact of social media back then was less.

  3. #63
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    My puters are not working and i'm barely functioning either, but GS is always a diversion. Quite honestly, I did not think this would come down to MK vs Yuna but given the makeup of the board plus the fact Yuna and her ubers/fans/likers have returned to GS, I guess I should have guessed.

    I couldn't quote MM but I thought same thing. Peggy said this before Yuna. But if we think the two best skaters ever are Yuna and MK, (I DON'T know-BUT THREAD WENT ASAP IN THAT DIRECTION), sorry cap key stuck, I still think MK has the most legitimate record to date.

    Yuna Kim wins her nationals with no one near her. MK beat Oly gold medalists and won 9 times, reclaiming the title with her competitors with names like Lipinski, Hughes and other great skaters like Sasha. Her consistency is the best. Yuna did her work during one quad and she is returning in a year. I think I might be even more impressed if I saw Yuna in person, but I can't. I said before that Yuna is and was a jumping prodigy. Under CoP, which was made for her, she wins. Yuna is not the best in any other category of women. Many skaters out spin her. Many have much better extentions, spirals and posture. And flexibility to achieve better line.

    I was shocked having been away from skating to see how much she was outscoring Mao Asada, who I thought was all around as good. What Mao did plus the triple axels was incredible. This tiny focus over rotation is crazy. I never felt there should have been such a huge gap between Asada and Yuna Kim. I went back and watched the quad I had mosty missed due to illness and other awful stuff. I think at the time, with little knowledge of CoP that a girl doing a triple axel, and landing it that well should be worth much more. CoP was really unknown, and I have learned, with every Chan competition, more and more about the rules.

    I actually found Yuna improved in her expressiveness with Les Mis, perhaps due to the story, perhaps the music was more heartfelt. I think MK's winnings, longevity, all around skating skills, and the pure joy she exuded most every time out making her so enjoyable to watch. I think I would have gone with Sasha as best skater, but she was poor at competition compared to Irina. Kat Witt had 4 world Championships, maybe 6? Europeans, and two golds. Yes we cannot compare her to others now under IJS. She was one of the very best competitors I can remember. Sorry cursor hoppiong around on this Asus. No ins. to fix it, drat.

    I like MM's body of work criteria, and I think her 5 world medals easily equal or surpass one Oly gold. I loved, Tara, Sarah and Shizuka, but they don't compare to MK. It looks like Yuna will win. I feel she is overscored in every area but jumps. Her jumps are huge, fast, cover the ice and usually well rotated even in her triple triples. She is a consistent skater. I wish I could see her in person. Like Chan, they say it makes a huge difference. Unless she is a different skater from the waist down in Sochi, I still think MK's pure joie de vivre made her so unbeatable for most of a decade, I would agree with Peggy. Had Sashaha had consistent jumps, I'd have given those golds, many, to her. Irina could jump but not much flow out of many, and she was fast, a great spinner, and also in for years. She simply lacked line, posture etc. Nonetheless she is up there as a agreat for what she did do, and did accomplish.

    Are MK and Yuna the only skaters in this debate? It seems they are. Sonja Henie was as prodigious as Yuna Kim or Kwan. Maybe if we could agree on the greatest criteria we could get a fair list of the " best" 10 women of all time.

    As for the MM list of 10 great skates of MK, I hAVE 5 MORE. She is the only skater who had great skates as an am, a pro-am, an exhibition skater where she left in many triples. I too would send many other vids of others into outer space, but if skating is gliding and edges and beauty, well, Janet Lynn and Kwan had something very special.

    Maybe we can decide the criteria, agree there can be no greatest ever in answer to Peggy's claim, and based on those criteria come up with ten skaters, with a rank, and the reasons why they hold number 3 as opposed to number 6. For me, this is hard because the older skaters simply don't have the footage to watch on youtube, or do they? So to turn the direction of the thread to something other than Kwan vs . Yuna, maybe we could try this.

    We all want to see skaters we don't remember and hear stats we don't know. Maybe it was Kwan, as Peggy proclaimed, but then came Yuna, and Mao and other stellar skaters. I never felt Denis B. got her due. Nor Jenny Kirk at US Nationals. And Sasha even with a fall is recognizable and different. The young Oksana was pretty special. And Kristi Y was an incredible pro. As for delicate beauty, speed, elegance I think Katia was the best pair skater ever to date, and she was and is wonderful to watch even now as a single with that speed and no noise from her blades. How does she do it?

    So maybe we need to define what makes great figureskating? I think if we look to icedancers of the past and even present, we find incredibly complete women skaters-they just don't jump a lot. I go with criteria with emphasis on what is done on the ice.

    I still think Kurt is the best, most complete skater ever. He had nerves at Olympics. He proved he had it 4 times as world champion. Oly gold was won by some undeserving skaters over the century, so it cannot be the alpha/omega of FS. Kurt Proves it cannot be. Anyone think there was agreater skater than Kurt? The man is elegant in hockey skates!!!

    I think G&G are still the best pair. No, nothing given for Sergei's death. They had proved themselves so many times in every setting by his death at 28. Close for me are Rodnina/Zaitsev, Protopopovs, Shen and Zhao, Sale and Pelletier who I wish still skated, and Underhill and Martini. American tragic pair Tai and Randy were fabulous, and I think had the talent to win gold, even in the Russian lockout days.

    Picking a best female is the hardest category for me, according to my criteria, as so many were so talented in varying ways. If Yuna wins a second Oly Gold medal, she has quite an agument for best ever or top3 in my book. Glad I don't get interviewed. But as of today, I'd still have to give it to Kwan. Joyshould get points, anyone agree? She skated with it and you could feel her power thru that tube so strongly. I miss her and so many others! Glad we get to see Yuna's second run at the podium. Here's hoping for two killer programs!

    Can someone tell me why the lines get repeated? This is windows version 7. Is it certain versions that cause this repeating of words into next line? It is very annoying...a simple fix anyone? TY.

  4. #64
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    ^ I think you should give Kim another look. She makes the ice sing beneath her feet.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6d3XEp6mg0

  5. #65
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    As I said MM, I like this LP very much and have watched oh, maybe 10 times. She is amazing, getting better, but as of today, I agree with Peggy despite her amazing big, fully rotated triple triples. Yuna has no nerves. She is the Queen of Korea, and adored daily. Her confidence level must be off the charts after Vancouver. But I think you backpedal a bit since you clearly choose MK amd give us 10 skates to send into space. I agree, they are all wonderful. What Yuna has in technique, Kwan has in heart. Yuna is not a touchy feely skater. If she is feeling th music deeply, you wouldn't always know. Toller Cranston said that Yuna's skating was not remembered in Canada because it didn't connect emotionally, ie it wasn't as memorable as many skates.

    Music choice is so key with Yuna. No one really raved about her sp and it is forgettable despite her winning it. The LP is better constructed to make her perform more. If that music does not get you involved and emoting, nothing will. David Wilson knows his subject so well. There is a reason her Sp and LP in Vancouver were lite hearted, fun, sexy, charming. She acts well. Contrast this with her Gala skate in Vancouver. It requires a slow, adagio skater with beautiful lines and legs and feet. She has weaknesses, though we are not supposed to notice. Carolina Kostner is someone who can skate to any classical piece of music and it is incredible. I always said, Yuna is a greyhound, Mao a Gazelle, and Caro is simply a goddess. I love seeing her sheer elegance. I think she might be my fave last two seasons.

    But I'm happy to see what vehicles Wilson designs for Yuna. I do feel bad for the others as worlds made it clear, a clean Yuna with hard jumps will kill anyone. She is made for CoP. For me, I still prefer the Kween. And I think Yuna has one more season to change my mind. I will I hope be watching, God willing..

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr
    But I think you backpedal a bit...
    I know, I know. Prettykeys made fun of my aliens, so I had to back off. Maybe we can send 11 programs into outer space.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    As I said MM, I like this LP very much and have watched oh, maybe 10 times. She is amazing, getting better, but as of today, I agree with Peggy despite her amazing big, fully rotated triple triples. Yuna has no nerves. [...]
    On the contrary, Yuna has plenty of nerves...of steel, I'd say.

    Music choice is so key with Yuna. No one really raved about her sp and it is forgettable despite her winning it. The LP is better constructed to make her perform more. If that music does not get you involved and emoting, nothing will. David Wilson knows his subject so well. There is a reason her Sp and LP in Vancouver were lite hearted, fun, sexy, charming. She acts well. Contrast this with her Gala skate in Vancouver. It requires a slow, adagio skater with beautiful lines and legs and feet. She has weaknesses, though we are not supposed to notice. [...]
    Considering her two most beautiful programs--Homage to Korea and Lark Ascending--are not "fun, sexy, or light-hearted", I wonder why you keep harping that Yuna's "weaknesses" do not allow her to emote or project deep stirring emotions that move the audience. She has the ability and has shown it quite well in some of her programs. Apart from Homage or Lark, she's also done some great SP's that in no way are "light-hearted", e.g. Tango de Roxanne and Danse Macabre. She's not at all merely suited to vivacious or flirty programs and can skate to many pieces of music, both serious and fun. Besides, the music to Les Mis is hardly the most emotional pieces to skate to. I'd say Turandot and East of Eden are far more powerful music, neither of which she's utilized a vehicle.

  8. #68
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    Michelle had an unique ability to evoke emotions from viewers no matter what music piece she is using. It is a quality that has not been rivaled, in my opinion, by any skater before or since her.

  9. #69
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    ITA Miki. Homage was likely very moving for Koreans due to music. I thought it was an ok skate. Lark Ascending was one skate she seemed to connect with the best. I wish she would reprise it for LP. It is my fave of "young Yuna." May she do great things for Korea/Asia when skating is done. BTW, it is hard to choose best pic even between Krisite/prettykeys avatars. So photogenic.

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    When I watch Yuna skate, I feel like I am watching Leonardo Da Vinci paint, or listening to Mozart or Beethoven. Even more so. She's that good.

    Other people are entitled to their own opinions, but for me personally, I think -- like those examples -- Yuna will be considered the best or among the best forever.

    If you watch some of her programs:
    2009 World Championships (Danse Macabre, Scheherazade)
    2009 Skate America (James Bond Medley)
    2010 Vancouver Olympics (Concerto in F, Meditation de Thais)
    2013 World Championships (Les Miserables)

    How can someone not be in awe of her performances? Since 2009 her talent and hard work have propelled her into the stratosphere, head and shoulders above anyone else and its not even close.

    Who else can say that, in their prime, they were light years ahead of all the other world class skaters of their generation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    When I watch Yuna skate, I feel like I am watching Leonardo Da Vinci paint, or listening to Mozart or Beethoven. Even more so. She's that good.

    Other people are entitled to their own opinions, but for me personally, I think -- like those examples -- Yuna will be considered the best or among the best forever.

    If you watch some of her programs:
    2009 World Championships (Danse Macabre, Scheherazade)
    2009 Skate America (James Bond Medley)
    2010 Vancouver Olympics (Concerto in F, Meditation de Thais)
    2013 World Championships (Les Miserables)

    How can someone not be in awe of her performances? Since 2009 her talent and hard work have propelled her into the stratosphere, head and shoulders above anyone else and its not even close.

    Who else can say that, in their prime, they were light years ahead of all the other world class skaters of their generation?
    Yes!! And, YuNa is the skater who drew the biggest standing ovation and received the highest praises from commentators and experts, among the currently active skaters. This is a fact, not an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    Toller Cranston said that Yuna's skating was not remembered in Canada because it didn't connect emotionally, ie it wasn't as memorable as many skates.
    If that's so, why did Canadian artists choose Yu-Na's 2010 Vancouver performance as their model and inspiration for the "Tree of Light" show that aired nightly outside the Budweiser gardens during the 2013 World Championships? It's clearly her silhouette and it's clearly her Gershwin performance.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...ijnnFzPo#t=86s

    So much for not being memorable and not connecting emotionally. Why Yu-Na's performance, of all 2010 Olympic performances? Why not Rochette's? Why not Virtue/Moir's? Don't bother to twist the answer to your convenience. Yu-Na's silhouette was also used on one of the tourist guides to London.

    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    I always said, Yuna is a greyhound, Mao a Gazelle, and Caro is simply a goddess. I love seeing her sheer elegance. I think she might be my fave last two seasons.

    But I'm happy to see what vehicles Wilson designs for Yuna. I do feel bad for the others as worlds made it clear, a clean Yuna with hard jumps will kill anyone. She is made for CoP. For me, I still prefer the Kween. And I think Yuna has one more season to change my mind.
    Obviously, every skaters has its haters and it's obvious you're one of Yu-Na's, given the number of backhanded "compliments" you've given to her in your ramblings. I doubt you'll ever overcome your own personal bias and appreciate her to give her the respect that she's due. She gave a performance where the entire audience started standing to applaud 15, 20 seconds before she had finished her program. I'm skeptical that many came away from Budweiser Gardens thinking that Carolina Kostner, who ended up flat on her stomach at the end of her FS, was a "goddess." Goddesses don't fall like that. But whatever.

    People are entitled to enjoy whatever they enjoy, but the bias from some is so overwhelming, that if one went by this forum, one would never believe that someone like Yu-Na Kim was a most-deserving Olympic and two-time world champion. But whatever...overwhelming bias undermines your own credibility. The condescension doesn't help.

    I think your mind is made up already, and one more season isn't going to change anything. If you haven't learned to appreciate Yu-Na now, then you never will. You don't have to change your mind, but I wonder why you keep rambling as if to try and correct and change the mind of others. I love and appreciate many skaters, and have no problem with those who don't love the same skaters that I do. I do have a problem with faulty reasoning and incorrect "facts" that people use to justify their rankings. You seem to disagree with anyone who feels Yu-Na is even a bit more talented than a skater with a big jumps. She is. Get over it.

  13. #73
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    Yuna's Concerto in F is so iconic.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    When I watch Yuna skate, I feel like I am watching Leonardo Da Vinci paint, or listening to Mozart or Beethoven. Even more so. She's that good.

    Other people are entitled to their own opinions, but for me personally, I think -- like those examples -- Yuna will be considered the best or among the best forever.

    If you watch some of her programs:
    2009 World Championships (Danse Macabre, Scheherazade)
    2009 Skate America (James Bond Medley)
    2010 Vancouver Olympics (Concerto in F, Meditation de Thais)
    2013 World Championships (Les Miserables)

    How can someone not be in awe of her performances? Since 2009 her talent and hard work have propelled her into the stratosphere, head and shoulders above anyone else and its not even close.

    Who else can say that, in their prime, they were light years ahead of all the other world class skaters of their generation?


    Every skater should have fans like this!

  15. #75
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    To get back to the original question, which is Peggy Fleming's expectation that Michelle's performances will stand the test of time, that her legend will grow rather than diminish in twenty years, IMHO the question makes the best sense if it is restricted to U.S. skating fans only.

    Russian skating fans think Irina Slutskaya was better than Michelle. Other European fans think Katarina Witt, with two Olympic gold medals, is untouchable in the category of all-time best. Yuna Kim could run for President of Korea. Who doesn't love Midori Ito?

    I think a more modest question is, how will Michelle's legacy stack up against past icons of U.S. ladies skating lore? Will she be as fondly remembered as Carol Heiss, Peggy herself, Janet Lynn, Dorothy Hamill, and Kristi Yamaguchi? Or is it the case that every dog has his day, and the next nova to come along will eclipse all the fading stars?

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