Plushenko plans to compete in team & individual events in Sochi

Olympia said:

Well, the skaters aren't here reading the posts, so it's no skin off their noses.

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Why do you believe that? I'm pretty sure I've heard comments that some skaters do know these forums and read some posts here. Really, I think if I was a skater, I'd be curious and sneek in here at least once. And even if it's rare, it's possible to happen. There are tons of rude and respectless comments here, and I doubt any skater reading them would like it (even if it's not the exact person the comments were about, would you like reading things like "she's atrocious" about your friends/team mates/friendly rivals or whatever?). Sometimes I wished the mods would be stricter about these kind of comments, because skaters are handled like "themes" sometimes rather than "humans". (I don't mean to belittle the work of the mods though, it's a very tough job and the kindness with which they deal with all the heat is remarkable.)

I wouldn't mind at all if someone would insult me - they don't know me anyway. I know this can be different for others, and I don't mean to say insulting other posters is okay. But it's the insulting of skaters that makes others angry and starts the fan wars, more than insulting another poster.

yaya124 said:

Agreed.

But need to point out, it will always be fans (posters) who suffer on such forum, not the skaters (at least not directly). Fans are suffering not only because of the direct personal insult, which IMO actually cause less damage to the posters' mind (for example, you can call me stupid, I do not care.), but also suffering from other fans ill talking about their favorites and hence challenging their aesthetics. So it actually does not really matter if the words are polite or malicious. Being hypocritical (or arrogant) is equally bad as being insulting.

Some people decide only speak for/talk about their favorite, but leave other skaters in peace, others tend to praise their favorite while dismiss other skaters (hence challenge their fans). It will be always like that on such forums unfortunately.

Again, not saying what LT did are OK, just pointing out the facts about such forums.

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:thumbsup:

I'm not excusing anything discourteous that someone may have said, or will say.

However, I share some posters' annoyance with the general level of fan-botting that goes on in The Edge forum. We have some amazing contributors to this forum, with a wide range of knowledge on skating history, technique, music, art... things that add to our understanding and enjoyment of our sport.

Everyone has their favorite skaters, including me. In the interest of even-handed discourse, it is sometimes helpful to set aside personal preferences in an attempt to rationally examine various aspects of figure skating. Think of it as an intellectual exercise; there is no need to get defensive. The OGM will not be decided on the basis of internet postings.

For those that are uber-fans, there is the FanFest forum, where one can go crazy for your favorites. I rarely go to one of those threads, because that's just not what I hope to learn from this board, but my observation is that it's ill-mannered to even mildly criticize the subject of the thread. Ubers can mingle with like-minded individuals without fear of dissent.

My two cents.

Li'Kitsu said:

Why do you believe that? I'm pretty sure I've heard comments that some skaters do know these forums and read some posts here. Really, I think if I was a skater, I'd be curious and sneek in here at least once. And even if it's rare, it's possible to happen. There are tons of rude and respectless comments here, and I doubt any skater reading them would like it (even if it's not the exact person the comments were about, would you like reading things like "she's atrocious" about your friends/team mates/friendly rivals or whatever?).

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Exactly! I'm sure some skaters do read skating forums even if not as often as fans do. Not only the skaters, but also their family members, relatives, and friends. Some posters thought this is an isolated place away from the rest of the world, but it is not. I remembered some skaters talking about reading online skating forums.

Olympia said:

On the other hand, sometimes she was breathtakingly insulting. And her insults were personal, both to posters and to skaters. Well, the skaters aren't here reading the posts, so it's no skin off their noses. But you can't know how an insult will affect some poster who might be insecure, ill, suffering, or just vulnerable at that moment, and therefore it's both discourteous and uncharitable to speak like that even in the anonymity of the Web.

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Many posters, new and old, have been driven away because of this. I think it's been long overdue. Thanks to the GS mods!:thumbsup:

yaya124 said:

Agreed.

But need to point out, it will always be fans (posters) who suffer on such forum, not the skaters (at least not directly). Fans are suffering not only because of the direct personal insult, which IMO actually cause less damage to the posters' mind (for example, you can call me stupid, I do not care.), but also suffering from other fans ill talking about their favorites and hence challenging their aesthetics. So it actually does not really matter if the words are polite or malicious. Being hypocritical (or arrogant) is equally bad as being insulting.

Some people decide only speak for/talk about their favorite, but leave other skaters in peace, others tend to praise their favorite while dismiss other skaters (hence challenge their fans). It will be always like that on such forums unfortunately.

Again, not saying what LT did are OK, just pointing out the facts about such forums.

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Well everyone is entitled to their opinion, so if they criticize skaters then that's their prerogative. But it's also the way you go about criticizing them. To say a "skater is a head case" or "wipes the ice with their butt" or "they're finished" or suggesting they lack talent is insulting to the athletes. But there's nothing wrong with calling a skater out for rude behaviour or pointing out a trend in their skating (like URs/flutzing, or a performance that is lacking) as long as it isn't malicious and there is some attempt to stay objective. This is certainly a forum where insults intermittently overshadow opinions, and people who defend their skaters to the death interpret even the most innocuous comments as an attack and then go on the offensive. There's nothing wrong with jabs being thrown, but let's keep them above the belt.

Actually I find comments that make claims about a skater or team's skating as being bad in some way, especially when it is false (as in accusing a non flutzer of flutzing for example), or accusing a skater of cowardice as more objectionable than saying a skater who fell "wiped the ice with his/her butt" when they did fall, and did, indeed wipe the ice with their butt. YMMV.

What isn't OK is to insult other posters. What makes this very tricky is that standards for "insulting" vary widely across cultures, and this is a world wide board.

dorispulaski said:

Actually I find comments that make claims about a skater or team's skating as being bad in some way, especially when it is false (as in accusing a non flutzer of flutzing for example), or accusing a skater of cowardice as more objectionable than saying a skater who fell "wiped the ice with his/her butt" when they did fall, and did, indeed wipe the ice with their butt. YMMV.

What isn't OK is to insult other posters. What makes this very tricky is that standards for "insulting" vary widely across cultures, and this is a world wide board.

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Saying a skater wiped the ice with their butt is a factual but inelegant description. The problem is with what goes before and after in the posting. Comments on people's personalities, derogatory comments on skaters and posters of a personal nature. There was a poster ( now banned) who crossed that fine line repeatedly but was not called out for the longest time. Yes the poster may have had other virtues but the constant hit at supporters of a rival skater wore one down.

emdee said:

Yes the poster may have had other virtues but the constant hit at supporters of a rival skater wore one down.

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Those supporters of a rival skater are obviously the opponent posters. I take this is what Doris meant "to insult other posters" and it is not OK.

Not saying insulting people is OK, but sometimes, some posters say something could really challenge others nerves. They might sound harmless using no obvious insulting words, but the results are the same.

Of course everyone has the right to say their opinion, but if one cannot say it nicely (without being hypocritical or arrogant), he/she should expect to receive defensive comments. The tricky part is there is no standard to judge whether some people's 'polite' but provocative comments/or lies cross the line.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion, so if they criticize skaters then that's their prerogative. But it's also the way you go about criticizing them. To say a "skater is a head case" or "wipes the ice with their butt" or "they're finished" or suggesting they lack talent is insulting to the athletes. But there's nothing wrong with calling a skater out for rude behaviour or pointing out a trend in their skating (like URs/flutzing, or a performance that is lacking) as long as it isn't malicious and there is some attempt to stay objective. This is certainly a forum where insults intermittently overshadow opinions, and people who defend their skaters to the death interpret even the most innocuous comments as an attack and then go on the offensive. There's nothing wrong with jabs being thrown, but let's keep them above the belt.

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I agree with just about everything you said, except that I have often used the term "headcase" without meaning any offense and can't think of any substitute for it that gets the idea across. Some skaters are headcases, and to me it just means that they have an extra obstacle to overcome in their skating. In fact, being something of a headcase myself, I find it admirable when skaters with less mental toughness rise to the occasion despite their confidence issues. Someone like Katarina Witt, or like Chris Evert in tennis, can seemingly summon up that icy balance on any occasion and can even psych the opponent out. (Remember Witt and Debi Thomas in the long program at Calgary.) It's the ideal temperament for competitive sports. But there are other highly gifted skaters who don't have that ice machine in their brains, and they have more of a challenge dealing with high-pressure events. Either they lose confidence, or get distracted, or overthink a jump sequence...we've all seen it happen at the most heartbreaking moments. There's nothing insulting about noticing this. Some of my favorite skaters are headcases, and I am overjoyed on days when they overcome this trait to stand on (or at the top of) the podium.

If anyone can think of a better term to use, let me know!

I dislike the use of the word "headcase" because it implies a psychiatric reason rather than a physical reason for a skater's inconsistency, and unless the skater gives a news conference, saying she's seeing a sports psychologist, or reports her other physical injuries instead, I would feel like I was giving a long-distance medical opinion, something I don't feel is fair to the skater.

If it's me posting, I prefer "inconsistent" to headcase, because it implies nothing about the cause of the inconsistency, which is something, of course, that we can't know unless the skater tells us.

There are a lot of reasons a skater might fall a lot besides being a headcase:
1. Incorrect technique - a lot of US ladies have had this problem who were tagged as headcases, but just had lousy jump technique-underrotators, flutzers and lippers
2. Inadequate training - note all the skaters who fall a lot more at the beginning of the season
3. Overtraining - note skaters who start the season strong but do worse toward the end.
4. Bad program design-if you can't do a 3A from a rocker, you shouldn't plan to do it that way.
5. Lack of stamina, combined with backloading of your program
6. Attempting stuff that you haven't mastered yet. This may be a good choice for you to learn a skill, but it also might get you the name of a headcase
7. Physical conditions, like asthma

And then, of course, there are "headcase-y" reasons that Olympia listed, and all of those do happen, but there are lots of other possible reasons.

Hmm. I respect your reasoning, Doris, and I'd like to agree with you, but I can't think myself all the way there yet. One thing I absolutely agree with is your first point, about incorrect technique. When one analyzes most of the modern skaters who would go in this "category to be named later," they do indeed have some technical shortcoming that prevents them from being completely consistent. One of the most famous ones is Sasha Cohen, who was spectacular at the things she was good at (posture, positions, grace) but had an admitted lack of good blade technique, especially compared to Michelle. This weakness affected her jumps just enough to hold her back from the very top, though she certainly racked up a splendid record during her career. Likewise, Alissa can't count on her jumps or her speed, which of course would create insecurity both mentally and physically.

According to various online dictionaries, the definition of "head case" is "an insane person." Suggested synonyms are fruitcake, madman, mental defective, lunatic, psychopath. sicko, wacko, etc.

I think what we mean is that the skater gets nervous and as a consequence does not perform at his or her best when the chips are down. The opposite is a "clutch player" -- a person who performs the better the greater the pressure.

Mathman said:

According to various online dictionaries, the definition of "head case" is "an insane person." Suggested synonyms are fruitcake, madman, mental defective, lunatic, psychopath. sicko, wacko, etc.

I think what we mean is that the skater gets nervous and as a consequence does not perform at his or her best when the chips are down. The opposite is a "clutch player" -- a person who performs the better the greater the pressure.

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That's certainly a good reason to have an in universe figure skating dictionary of words! I would not apply of those Synonyms to the figure skating word headcase!! Headcase is all about pressure stress causEd jump mistakes!

In other sports, a person who is physically fit, but prone to cave under pressure, would be said to "choke", I think?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=choke

This is not a nice term, but nicer than headcase (since there are no insanity implications).

Mathman said:

According to various online dictionaries, the definition of "head case" is "an insane person." Suggested synonyms are fruitcake, madman, mental defective, lunatic, psychopath. sicko, wacko, etc.

I think what we mean is that the skater gets nervous and as a consequence does not perform at his or her best when the chips are down. The opposite is a "clutch player" -- a person who performs the better the greater the pressure.

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Evidently, the various online dictionaries don't adequately capture contemporary usage. The term "head case" is often used in almost all sports, in the English-language world, at any rate. A few thoughts:

-In my experience, in order for someone to be justifiably described as a head case, the athlete must exhibit a chronic pattern of underperformance, that cannot be explained in more mundane ways (e.g. injury, or bereavement, physical change or depletion or exhaustion, etc.), and displayed over a body of performances sufficient in extent to statistically rule out the not-insignificant level of serendipity inherent in competitive figure skating. In other words, a teenager still on the threshold of an adult career, with, say, only a season or so under her belt, would not, as a general rule, be a natural candidate for the tag, in my view.

-In concept, saying that an athlete is a head case should be no different than describing him/her as "injury prone". It is, in my judgment, very much the same type of thing. People are born with a wide range of character and personality traits, and some may be more applicable to sports than others. Just like muscles and physical skills, the psychological traits related to competitive success may be trained and strengthened, but I do believe that some athletes have greater congenital, in-born talent for performing under competitive pressure than others. We would think nothing of saying that one person has the native potential to be a faster runner than another, but we tend to be a bit shy about making similar judgments about the psychological components of athletic talent.

-There is, on the one hand, very good reason for such reluctance; physical talent can be much more obviously quantified and measured, by looking at height, body proportions and length of limbs, bone structure, muscle mass and type, cardiovascular capacity and efficiency, etc. etc. At the current juncture, the mental aspects of athletic competitiveness can only be satisfactorily demonstrated in the event itself. There is no adequate substitute or proxy for showing your stuff in the actual competition. Being able to do it in practice doesn't cut it. Sports is filled with can't-miss wonders who leave it all on the practice field or the driving range or the stationary bike.

-Our collective inability (and this includes the athletes themselves) to be frank about the subject, which gives "head case" the aura of stigma and shame that "injury prone" cannot hope to match, is because we tend to tacitly assume shortcomings in "mental" competitiveness to be, at least potentially and in principle, entirely within an individual's control, something extolled by both Deepak Chopra as well as believers in Dianetics and Xenu , and therefore any perceived imperfections in this area are often viewed as bordering on moral weakness.

The problem of usage, in my opinion, is not any intimation of insanity. I cannot think of any instance where that was a secondary, even tertiary, connotation. Rather, it is that we often imply (sometimes willfully) that the athlete is somehow weak or lazy or insufficiently vigorous in correcting his/her failings, or a kind of Darwinian deficient, to be weeded out. This is what gives the words their peculiar sting; to say that an athlete is a chronic under-rotator, or injury-prone, says very little about that athlete outside of competition, inasmuch as we do not expect them to suddenly break out into a triple toe in the middle of a classroom or the mall. But the undertones of "head case" do, in fact, tend to bleed into impressions of the skater's strength of character, and hence their worth as a person, not just their prowess as an athlete.

Using my trusty crystal ball, I predict that within a few decades, as the chemical/biological basis of mental and psychological traits become better understood, and consequently as the tools available to athletes to improve the mental aspects of competitive performance reach levels that we can only imagine now, the shame and the furtiveness will disappear, to be replaced by open and aggressive assessment and regimens for improvement.

-Bottom line: My thoughts on the term "head case" can be boiled down to two essentials: 1) Such a thing exists, and refers to a set of traits and talents (or in the shortcomings thereof) that are at one and the same time native and cultivable. Use of the term isn't completely unjustified. Even if we used polite wording, it would simply become the new code for "head case". 2) We should acknowledge, however, that our ability to diagnose it (particularly well in advance, and particularly as bystanders or fans) are crude guesses, at best, and should therefore be mindful of taking on the role of armchair psychiatrist with the overeager gusto that sometimes prevails.

-The Bottom Line of the Bottom Line: IMHO, we should cut all skaters some slack, give them plenty of the benefit of the doubt where such benefit is at all reasonable, particularly those who are still pretty young. Even Sabine Lisicki, who wept tears of nervousness, frustration and embarrassment in the middle of her match under the worldwide scrutiny of the Wimbledon Finals, shouldn't be considered a head case, unless, of course, it becomes a longstanding and regular habit.

dorispulaski said:

In other sports, a person who is physically fit, but prone to cave under pressure, would be said to "choke", I think?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=choke

This is not a nice term, but nicer than headcase (since there are no insanity implications).

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Maybe it's a guy thing, but I would rather be called a "head case" than a "choker".

Robeye said:

Using my trusty crystal ball, I predict that within a few decades, as the chemical/biological basis of mental and psychological traits become better understood, and consequently as the tools available to athletes to improve the mental aspects of competitive performance reach levels that we can only imagine now...

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I think this will be the new frontier in sports doping. Now that they have anabolic steroids, growth hormone, etc,. down pat, they will turn their attention to drugs that work on brain chemistry.

Mathman said:

I think this will be the new frontier in sports doping. Now that they have anabolic steroids, growth hormone, etc,. down pat, they will turn their attention to drugs that work on brain chemistry.

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This is the unsettling obverse of what I was envisioning.

I was thinking a bit more optimistically, that science would begin to identify certain brain chemistries, and neurological states and patterns, which are associated with and conducive to athletic/competitive success. Athletes would then undergo specific training regimens to achieve those chemistries and states at the time of competition. This, I believe, is an entirely legitimate and laudable objective, and one which is practiced in a crude way even now (e.g. visualization training), in the manner that alchemy and sympathetic magic prefigured scientific chemistry and medicine.

At some future time, there may be technological developments which will allow the precise monitoring of neurological and neuro-chemical states, which will make such training regimens not only practicable, but systematic, just as VO2 max monitoring devices allow for measurement of progress in enhancing physical stamina and endurance.

What you are suggesting, however, is all too plausible, in my opinion, that certain athletes and coaches will try to achieve this end using the short-cut of a pharmaceutical or mechanical solution to directly alter mental and psychological states, with no other effort required on the part of the athlete.

I confess to a certain pessimism on this topic. “Performance enhancing drugs” enhance performance. Athletes who deliver enhanced performances beat athletes whose performances are not enhanced. Reasoning backwards, what are we to conclude whenever someone runs faster than his fellows and wins the race?

In the Lance Armstrong case, testimony brought out the fact that every competitor in the Tour de France necessarily uses illegal drugs because it is not physically possible to contest that race without such help. Rock musicians on tour must take uppers before every performance because otherwise it is impossible to generate the energy that audiences expect night after night.