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Thread: What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean

  1. #166
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    Carolina has a problem rotating a second triple. That one is very barely rotated and some of her 3T+3Ts are borderline or downright URed as well.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Obviously, this isn't a good comparison.

    You took a clean 3-3 from Yu-Na and a shaky 3-3 from Carolina. Naturally, Yu-Na's combo is better here. However, if Carolina had executed this combo without the shaky landing then, again, YES these are of similar quality.

    It seems like you are trying to convince me that Yu-Na's jumps are far better than Carolina's so let me save you some time...when both ladies execute their jumps cleanly, I truly believe they are deserving of similar GOE.

    So no matter how many comparisons you want to throw at me, my answer will remain the same: When Carolina Kostner executes her jumps cleanly, her jumps deserve to be included in the same category as Yu-Na Kim's jumps. That's my opinion. You disagree...that is your opinion.

    There is no need to try to change my opinion to yours.
    There was no "when Carolina had executed this combo without the shaky landing" in past season.

    Unfortunately,I was tried to find Carolina's 3-3 in past season. but that was the best 3-3 of her in past season.
    In euros, she fell on 3-3 in SP, and didnt attempt in FS. And it is her 3-3 at national. It looks even more shaky than that. http://youtu.be/pby8dE2bKho?t=40s
    So, I chose '3-3 in FS in World' as an example.

  3. #168
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    That's a 3-2 though.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    There was no "when Carolina had executed this combo without the shaky landing" in past season.

    Unfortunately,I was tried to find Carolina's 3-3 in past season. but that was the best 3-3 of her in past season.
    In euros, she fell on 3-3 in SP, and didnt attempt in FS. And it is her 3-3 at national. It looks even more shaky than that. http://youtu.be/pby8dE2bKho?t=40s
    So, I chose '3-3 in FS in World' as an example.
    Why are you focusing on 3-3s only?

    Anyways, what about this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVZ5QumnSpk

  5. #170
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    Isn't the question whether Carolina should get similar +GOE than Yuna in jumps? Whether she has or doesn't have a 3-3 wouldn't really answer that question would it?

  6. #171
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    To be fair, I don't think her lip is as bad as it was at the beginning of the season. I feel Gracie has worked on reigning the lip in -- that's a big reason she's has problems executing the jump this season. At Worlds she got straight -1 GOE for the issue, which tells me they consider it more of what was the (!) than a severe (e).
    I agree. It's still a problem but it's not as pronounced as before. That means if she keeps working on it eventually she'll get it right.


    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    Unfortunately,I was tried to Carolina's 3-3 in past season. but that was the best 3-3 of her in past season.
    In euros, she fell on 3-3 in SP, and didnt attempt in FS.
    And it is her 3-3 at national. It looks even more shaky than that. http://youtu.be/pby8dE2bKho?t=40s
    So, I chose '3-3 in FS in World' as an example
    Understandable. However, my opinion of their quality of jumps is not based solely on each lady's ability to execute a 3-3; that's what you seem to be basing it on.

    My opinion is that when you compare their jumps on the whole, they are of similar quality. If you compare a each jump (lutz vs lutz, salchow vs salchow, axel vs axel) both are capable of executing them very well and, were each to land the jump cleanly, I am of the opinion that (give or take) their jumps are of equal quality. Yu-Na gets better height but Carolina checks her landing and holds her edge better...both have speed, coverage and good air position.

    I don't know how to explain it better than that...

    ETA: Thank you Jeebus! At least someone understands what I'm saying...

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiggs View Post
    In this particular example, Yuna's execution is clearly better, which was reflected in GOE respectively (1.90 for Yuna / 0.90 for Carolina). That is a whole point difference, which seems about right for those two combinations.

    Take a look at their single 3lutzes in the same programs, both executed beautifully. Yuna received 1.80 GOE, Carolina 1.60. That seems right to me. They should be on par if the jumps are executed this well.
    I agree with your opinion about 3-3, 3lutz. what i disagreed about kwanatic's post was that carolina's overall jump technique quality is similar with Yuna's.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    I agree. what i disagreed about kwanatic's post was that carolina's overall jump technique quality is similar with Yuna's.
    Can you elaborate more? What "overall jump technique quality" exactly is Carolina missing to match Yuna? Like kwanatic said, if you compare each jump (lutz vs lutz, salchow vs salchow, axel vs axel) both are capable of executing them very well and should receive similar GOE.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiggs View Post
    What "overall jump technique quality" exactly is Carolina missing to match Yuna? Like kwanatic said, if you compare each jump (lutz vs lutz, salchow vs salchow, axel vs axel) both are capable of executing them very well and should receive similar GOE.
    So your claim is... they must get same or similar GOE when they execute their jumps well.. I can never agree. I just would not argue about it anymore

  10. #175
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    I don't think that Carolina is missing anything in technique. When landed, her jumps are very nice and definitely deserve +GOE for all the qualities that have been mentioned above.

    The one thing that Carolina lacks a bit versus Yu-Na is effortlessness (which is one of the bullets to get +GOE). Carolina's telegraphing/set-up for her lutzes, flip, and axel make the jumps not feel completely effortless. In the FS, Yu-Na also has more transitions into and out of her jumps than Carolina does before hers (i.e. see her flip, solo lutz, both of her 2A passes)--which again, affects +GOE. That's how Yu-Na earns extra +GOE versus Carolina and other skaters.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    So your claim is... they must get same or similar GOE when they execute their jumps well.. I can never agree. I just would not argue about it anymore
    Why? I asked you to elaborate further and your answer is simply "I can never agree". Please give me an example or a reason as of why you think they should not receive similar GOE and why Carolina's quality is inferior. I would really like to know.

  12. #177
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    So your claim is... they must get same or similar GOE when they execute their jumps well.. I can never agree. I just would not argue about it anymore
    I try to be impartial and not stir up drama on this board but at this point I have to ask...

    Why are you unable to elaborate on Jiggs' question? ("What "overall jump technique quality" exactly is Carolina missing to match Yuna?") When you asked me to explain my views (several times, might I add) I did my best to give you an objective reason as to why I feel Yu-Na and Carolina's jumps are of similar quality...why are you unable to do the same?

    So I'd like to second Jiggs' question: In your opinion Venlac, when it comes to each individual jump (not 3-3s b/c we've already established Yu-Na is better at executing those), what overall jump technique quality is Carolina missing to match Yu-Na?

    I'm not trying to be mean. I honestly want to know. I was courteous enough to offer my explanations to your questions so I'm just asking you to return the favor.

  13. #178
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    And Sotnikova and Tuktamisheva will go clean too

  14. #179
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    Perhaps it's that Carolina is inconsistent in landing her elements at their best quality and to that, I would agree (she has inconsistent jump issues, ie that while she CAN execute things t a high quality she doesn't do it in her programs consistently (she's probably a 70-80% competitor)). Carolina DOES have a full set of jumps with no edge calls, however, which is in some respects more impressive than what the balance of the top 10 is capable of (Kim has no 3Lo and occasionally a 3F (e), Asada has 3Lz (e) even if she lands an occasionally clean 3A, Murakami has 3Lz (e), Wagner has 3Lz (e), Gold has 3F (e), Li has 3Lz (e), Sotnikova has 3Lz (e), Osmond has 3Lz (e), Suzuki has 3Lz (e); the only other top 12 lady with clean take offs and a full set of jumps is Tuktamysheva).

  15. #180
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    Kim has no issues on her flip. Do not let the stupid tech caller fool you.

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