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Thread: What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean

  1. #181
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    Kim's 3f and 3s were much improved at Worlds. She may have had "issues" with them in the past, but they are both gorgeous jumps for her now.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I try to be impartial and not stir up drama on this board but at this point I have to ask...

    Why are you unable to elaborate on Jiggs' question? ("What "overall jump technique quality" exactly is Carolina missing to match Yuna?") When you asked me to explain my views (several times, might I add) I did my best to give you an objective reason as to why I feel Yu-Na and Carolina's jumps are of similar quality...why are you unable to do the same?

    So I'd like to second Jiggs' question: In your opinion Venlac, when it comes to each individual jump (not 3-3s b/c we've already established Yu-Na is better at executing those), what overall jump technique quality is Carolina missing to match Yu-Na?

    I'm not trying to be mean. I honestly want to know. I was courteous enough to offer my explanations to your questions so I'm just asking you to return the favor.
    Quote Originally Posted by jiggs View Post
    Why? I asked you to elaborate further and your answer is simply "I can never agree". Please give me an example or a reason as of why you think they should not receive similar GOE and why Carolina's quality is inferior. I would really like to know.
    Like I did to explain about 3-3, I will explain that comparison each jumps with video. I don't have idea to explain by another way.
    Caro has correct edge, and her technique is felt comfortable. But looks less effortless, there is difference in the speed to approached, , and The most important thing is that her jumps are not comparisonable in height- the most important thing in GOE - with Yuna.
    Who have similar height in jumps with Yuna is only Gracie gold. I think

    lutz
    kostner http://youtu.be/NqYLMnyl8VA?t=2m6s
    kim http://youtu.be/GIU7Gsbkghg?t=2m47s
    flip
    kostner http://youtu.be/NqYLMnyl8VA?t=2m45s
    kim http://youtu.be/GIU7Gsbkghg?t=1m26s
    2A
    kostner http://youtu.be/NqYLMnyl8VA?t=2m30s
    kim http://youtu.be/6MfgGsf0cZA?t=1m47s
    salchow
    kostner http://youtu.be/xHmKOhVe_-s?t=4m1s
    kim http://youtu.be/GIU7Gsbkghg?t=1m56s

    If we say Caro's jump techinique is good as much as Yuna, then, we can say Ando's jumps are good as much as Yuna. I think Caro's jump technique level is same with Ando. Not as much as Yuna.

  3. #183
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    Like I did to explain about 3-3, I will explain that comparison each jumps with video. I don't have idea to explain by another way.
    Caro has correct edge, and her technique is felt comfortable. But looks less effortless, there is difference in the speed to approached, , and The most important thing is that her jumps are not comparisonable in height- the most important thing in GOE - with Yuna.
    Who have similar height in jumps with Yuna is only Gracie gold. I think

    lutz
    kostner http://youtu.be/NqYLMnyl8VA?t=2m6s
    kim http://youtu.be/GIU7Gsbkghg?t=2m47s
    flip
    kostner http://youtu.be/NqYLMnyl8VA?t=2m45s
    kim http://youtu.be/GIU7Gsbkghg?t=1m26s
    2A
    kostner http://youtu.be/NqYLMnyl8VA?t=2m30s
    kim http://youtu.be/6MfgGsf0cZA?t=1m47s
    salchow
    kostner http://youtu.be/xHmKOhVe_-s?t=4m1s
    kim http://youtu.be/GIU7Gsbkghg?t=1m56s

    If we say Caro's jump techinique is good as much as Yuna, then, we can say Ando's jumps are good as much as Yuna. I think Caro's jump technique level is same with Ando. Not as much as Yuna.
    Okay, I could agree on several of your points...

    HOWEVER...the fact that you brought Miki Ando into this discussion and equated her jumps to Carolina's is enough to let me know that there is zero way to continue this conversation in any kind of rational manner. Comparing the quality of Miki's jumps to Carolina's just shot your credibility as an objective poster squarely in the face. So for that reason I'll echo your sentiments and say let's not argue about it anymore and move on...

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    height- the most important thing in GOE
    The guidelines regarding GOE do not distinguish between bullets in terms of importance. This is what they are:

    1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
    2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
    3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
    4) good height and distance
    5) good extension on landing / creative exit
    6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
    7) effortless throughout
    8) element matched to the musical structure
    That said, I think though that while officially, the bullets are not weighted, I think unofficially, there may be a bit of an extra weight by the judges given to jumps that have both good height and distance versus jumps that may fulfill other bullets but don't have good height or distance. I haven't done a scientific test or anything, that's just a guess.

    I think Kostner's jumps compare favorably to Yu-Na's in terms of height or distance on the jumps, but as I said above, Yu-Na gets effortlessness and transitions (entrances/exits) over Kostner in the FS in particular.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Okay, I could agree on several of your points...

    HOWEVER...the fact that you brought Miki Ando into this discussion and equated her jumps to Carolina's is enough to let me know that there is zero way to continue this conversation in any kind of rational manner. Comparing the quality of Miki's jumps to Carolina's just shot your credibility as an objective poster squarely in the face. So for that reason I'll echo your sentiments and say let's not argue about it anymore and move on...
    just Ando is known for power jumper and received same GOE on some jumps in 2011 world, like Caro at 2013 World. I thought... they are in same position, against kim
    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    The guidelines regarding GOE do not distinguish between bullets in terms of importance. This is what they are:

    That said, I think though that while officially, the bullets are not weighted, I think unofficially, there may be a bit of an extra weight by the judges given to jumps that have both good height and distance versus jumps that may fulfill other bullets but don't have good height or distance. I haven't done a scientific test or anything, that's just a guess. .
    what i mean is that judges tend to 'jumps height' as the most important thing in GOE. As you said in the second paragraph.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I think it would be a very close race b/w Yu-Na and Carolina if both are clean. If Carolina had hit all of her jumps at worlds this year, I think she may have beaten Yu-Na judging from the way she was scored in the SP. If Carolina had been clean she would have beaten Yu-Na in the SP.
    That was this year with Kostner being defending World Champion and Kim having not competed for awhile and skating in an earlier flight. Kostner should have taken her chance to challenge Kim more and try and defend her title this year (although with how Kim skated the LP it still might have happened anyway). Next year with Kim back as World Champion it will be MUCH harder for Kostner, especialy if her base value is lower than Kim's which is was in both programs this year. Nobody is likely to beat Kim next year on GOEs and PCSs, Kostner is the only one who comes relatively close, but unless her base value is higher it wont get her ahead. That is why Mao despite having the lowest GOE and PCS of the three has the best chance to challenge hypothetically IMO.

    Also Kim's SP at Worlds was not clean. She had an edge call and her flying camel was a level 1 or 2 I believe. The program was also tenative and extremely boring, and along with that skating early and not established as the dominant skater anymore, like she is now again. I predict her next clean short will be atleast a 75. Even Suzuki got a 66 at the WTT with only a triple toe-triple toe, so even she could score close to 70 with a harder combination, and likewise Sotnikova would have scored around 70 with a fully rotated triple lutz-triple toe, so you had better believe Kim will score alot higher than that (unless there is doubting with a similar combination she would far outscore Sotnikova and Suzuki, LOL) with a triple lutz-triple toe next time around.

  7. #187
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    The great thing about this topic is we can actually have it. In the mens and pairs there is no discussion. Volosozhar & Trankov and Chan would blow away with the field with everyone skating cleanly, unless Chan takes a hit from some of the negative press around him lately. Granted Kim is much more likely/certain to win than Chan in actuality, but that is only since she is far more likely to skate clean or closer to it than her main rivals, while he is far more likely to make more mistakes than any of the other top skaters but on his norm. However in the hypothetical of an all clean competition, Kim is probably much more vurnerable than Chan this time around.

    Likewise the womens event in Vancouver there would have been no discussion. Had I started a thread what the final results in Vancouver would have been had everyone skated totally clean it would have been something like:

    1. Kim


    ------huge gap----



    2. Asada or Rochette

    -----huge gap-----


    4. Ando or Kostner


    ----huge gap-----


    6. Flatt, Suzuki, Nagasu, etc...



    Boring, nothing to discuss, other than a few mini battles; even in the highly unlikely hypothetical of all skating cleanly, it wasnt a very interesting discussion to what would happen that year. However this time around the feeling is the top 3 are much closer in the hypothetical of all skating cleanly than they would have been in Vancouver. Not only that but the 4-11 from last years Worlds are arguably all evenly matched and would have a close battle with each other and 1 or 2 of the top 3 if any of them open the door with enough mistakes (most likely Kostner and/or Asada to do so).

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    I didn't. It was OP, and you followed. Does it make you and him/her "above and beyond" stupidity? Judging by your reply it does. Anything new?
    I'm sorry but are you seriously dumb?
    In a hypotheical situation, Mao is able to receive +2s or +3s on GOE and beat Yuna Kim. I honestly feel like Im talking to a mentally disabled person. How are you not conprehending this? Anything new? Yes, your stupidity going more than above and beyond.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    Kim has no issues on her flip. Do not let the stupid tech caller fool you.
    What does "stupid tech caller" mean? Does it mean that he/she was too incompetent to distinguish between an inside and outside edge on slow-motion replay, or that he/she lied to sabotage Yuna's score? Or are you suggesting that Yuna should have received more points for a wrong-edge flip?

    Yuna doesn't have issues on her flip, but she IS human. She seemed tense throughout her entire short program; it's unsurprising, on the big stage for the first time in two years, that her skating wouldn't be as pristine as we're used to.

    She's capable of making mistakes; unfortunately, this is an argument that often falls on deaf ears. For goodness' sake, if she was perfect, why would she bother training? She could just sit out the GP and resume practices the week before the Olympics.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Also Kim's SP at Worlds was not clean. She had an edge call and her flying camel was a level 1 or 2 I believe. The program was also tenative and extremely boring, and along with that skating early and not established as the dominant skater anymore, like she is now again. I predict her next clean short will be atleast a 75. Even Suzuki got a 66 at the WTT with only a triple toe-triple toe, so even she could score close to 70 with a harder combination, and likewise Sotnikova would have scored around 70 with a fully rotated triple lutz-triple toe, so you had better believe Kim will score alot higher than that (unless there is doubting with a similar combination she would far outscore Sotnikova and Suzuki, LOL) with a triple lutz-triple toe next time around.
    Well... she had clean SP in NRW- B class competition which is known that judgement is generous. but her score was only 72. clean Asada(in SP) received 75.

    Also, when judges want to hammer her, they can give "e" on flip again in everytime.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    Well... she had clean SP in NRW- B class competition which is known that judgement is generous. but her score was 72.

    Also, when judges want to hammer her, they can give "e" on flip again in everytime.
    Like I said Suzuki and Sotnikova would have both scored around 70 at the WTT with a clean program with a triple lutz-triple toe. If even THEY can do that, I am 110% sure Kim also doing a triple lutz-triple toe will have no problem scoring a 75 next year with a clean and strong short. Kostner can score atleast 70 with her triple toe-triple toe if she goes clean, but she needs a harder combo than that next season or she will lose ground in the SP alone to a clean Kim and certainly a clean Asada (who has a 3axel and hard 3-3) next time around.

    As for your last comment perhaps, but judges generally dont want to "hammer" Kim. Her scores tend to be a bit on the generous side more often than not in fact as Mary01 pointed out. Last years Worlds SP was an exception it was the reverse, but dont look for that to become a trend, especialy now that she is established as the top dog again.

  12. #192
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    just Ando is known for power jumper and received same GOE on some jumps in 2011 world, like Caro at 2013 World. I thought... they are in same position, against kim
    Just b/c Miki Ando got a few +2s from judges doesn't mean that the quality of her elements matched Yu-Na's. You are putting way too much value on GOE awarded by the judges rather than paying attention to the actual skating.

    You have to realize that GOE isn't weighted against one skater meaning just b/c someone gave Yu-Na a +2 doesn't necessarily mean every other skater they gave a +2 to has matched her quality or execution. It means that within that skater's program, given that skater's ability and the way they executed it, the judges felt it was worth +2. That doesn't diminish Yu-Na's abilities or put said skater on equal ground with her. GOEs have nothing to do with other skaters.

    Your questions to me were always related to Carolina's jumps versus Yu-Na's jumps and in that respect, I do believe the two have similar quality in jumps. You can take that to mean that if Yu-Na does a clean lutz and Carolina does a clean lutz, 9 times out of 10, I think both deserve +2 for their execution of that element. Does that mean Carolina's lutz was as high as Yu-Na's? No. Does that mean Yu-Na's landing of her lutz was as nicely extended as Carolina's? No. It means that given each skater's ability and the way they skate, the quality that the two are able to achieve within their skating is comparable.

  13. #193
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    You have to realize that GOE isn't weighted against one skater meaning just b/c someone gave Yu-Na a +2 doesn't necessarily mean every other skater they gave a +2 to has matched her quality or execution. It means that within that skater's program, given that skater's ability and the way they executed it, the judges felt it was worth +2. That doesn't diminish Yu-Na's abilities or put said skater on equal ground with her. GOEs have nothing to do with other skaters.

    Your questions to me always were related to Carolina's jumps versus Yu-Na's jumps and in that respect, I do believe the two have similar quality in jumps. You can take that to mean that if Yu-Na does a clean lutz and Carolina does a clean lutz, 9 times out of 10, I think both deserve +2 for their execution of that element. Does that Carolina's lutz was as high as Yu-Na's? No. Does that mean Yu-Na's landing of her lutz was as nicely extended as Carolina's? No. It means that given each skater's ability and the way they skate, the quality that the two are able to achieve within their skating is comparable.
    Oh, I don't agree with that interpretation at all. The bullets for GOEs are intended to be as objective as possible. In principle, they should be measured against an absolute scale, not just compared with what a skater's limitation in talent allows.

    If a skater get "pretty good height for her, poor thing," that does not deserve the same GOE as someone who gets good height, period.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Like I said Suzuki and Sotnikova would have both scored around 70 at the WTT with a clean program with a triple lutz-triple toe. If even THEY can do that, I am 110% sure Kim also doing a triple lutz-triple toe will have no problem scoring a 75 next year with a clean and strong short. Kostner can score atleast 70 with her triple toe-triple toe if she goes clean, but she needs a harder combo than that next season or she will lose ground in the SP alone to a clean Kim and certainly a clean Asada (who has a 3axel and hard 3-3) next time around.
    I mean, she is no longer strongest skater in SP, when all go clean. It's not guess, its fact. I think it is because of that rule has changed.

    In past season, she has clean SP two time( first, I don't think that her 3F at World was wrong edge. Like comentators said, I didn't thought it was wrong edge.)
    she didn't received more than 75. In NRW, her score was 72. In World, her score was 69.


    As for your last comment perhaps, but judges generally dont want to "hammer" Kim. Her scores tend to be a bit on the generous side more often than not in fact as Mary01 pointed out. Last years Worlds SP was an exception it was the reverse, but dont look for that to become a trend, especialy now that she is established as the top dog again.
    well.. Maybe, she is the favorite at this time, as an olympic champion, world champion. But, In every season, favorite can be changed.
    In next season, if she doesn't consistency like she has been? and similar mistakes with her competitors? I think she will be taken from the that place immediately.

  15. #195
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Oh, I don't agree with that interpretation at all. The bullets for GOEs are intended to be as objective as possible. In principle, they should be measured against an absolute scale, not just compared with what a skater's limitation in talent allows.

    If a skater get "pretty good height for her, poor thing," that does not deserve the same GOE as someone who gets good height, period.

    I'm not saying judges give GOE in a "bless her heart, that's as high as she can jump, give her +1" kind of way. Certain criteria have to be met which is why some skaters receive GOE and others do not. The bullet points are applied to each skater; not against one specific skater. That's what I'm getting at.

    If some absolute standard existed whereby if a skater doesn't achieve this height or this speed they aren't given GOE then only 3 or 4 skaters would ever receive GOE. The bullet points specify certain things the judges are supposed to look for...they aren't supposed to compare what this skater is doing to what the next skater will do. It's up to that skater to execute the element to the best of their ability and try to hit those bullet points. The skater's ability is then evaluated by the judges and, at judges' discretion, GOE is awarded if they deserve it.

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