What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean | Page 19 | Golden Skate

What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Threads get so annoying when they become about bashing Mao's technical abilities. Yep, the triple axel is so easy that is why everyone does one? No. Mao is the only one.
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Yes, the mollycoddling of Mao's got to stop - "letting" her do 3As! In fact, all the other senior ladies should do one also, then how would she feel! Oh, wait... Actually, since so few ladies can do a 3Lz-3T consistently, maybe we shouldn't "let" any senior ladies do that either? I mean, why should ANY lady have any unfair advantage? Maybe everyone should just stick to doubles, and we can see who does those best, and all will be fair & square...

What about musicality? Some skaters just don't have any, poor things. Isn't that unfair on them? Let's get rid of the music also.

In fact - skip the jumps altogether! Let everyone skate the exact same thing - oh, we could call it... figures! Yes, let's put the figure back in figure skating, and let that be ALL that the skaters do. We can leave all the vulgar jumps & music to shows and such, and let the pure essence remain... "Theatricality and deception are powerful agents to the uninitiated... but we are initiated, aren't we Bruce? Members of the League of Shadows... " Oops! Did I let myself get carried away there? Well, never mind! In this thread - who will notice! ;)

(Also, I wonder how many will think my post is 100% serious? Ah, sweet irony... :) )
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
How many times has Mao been totally clean across a competition? My bet is very few, if any.

For the last time, this is a hypothetical thread. As in, what COULD happen if she WERE to skate completely clean? It doesn't matter how unlikely it is.

Well in Vancouver Asada would have lost badly even had she been completely clean. However it seems a combination of things are different now, although I cant pinpoint all of them, and in that unlikely hypothetical it probably would be much closer between them this time around.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Yes, the mollycoddling of Mao's got to stop - "letting" her do 3As! In fact, all the other senior ladies should do one also, then how would she feel! Oh, wait... Actually, since so few ladies can do a 3Lz-3T consistently, maybe we shouldn't "let" any senior ladies do that either? I mean, why should ANY lady have any unfair advantage? Maybe everyone should just stick to doubles, and we can see who does those best, and all will be fair & square...

What about musicality? Some skaters just don't have any, poor things. Isn't that unfair on them? Let's get rid of the music also.

In fact - skip the jumps altogether! Let everyone skate the exact same thing - oh, we could call it... figures! Yes, let's put the figure back in figure skating, and let that be ALL that the skaters do. We can leave all the vulgar jumps & music to shows and such, and let the pure essence remain... "Theatricality and deception are powerful agents to the uninitiated... but we are initiated, aren't we Bruce? Members of the League of Shadows... " Oops! Did I let myself get carried away there? Well, never mind! In this thread - who will notice! ;)

(Also, I wonder how many will think my post is 100% serious? Ah, sweet irony... :) )

Don't worry, LRK; I appreciated the wit. Figures indeed. Let's hear it for the eleven-time Olympic champion, Trixi Schuba!
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Again, you have ignored my post entirely, and gave another ridiculous excuse.
Here I agree with you. The link to Yuna's score at Worlds-2013 indeed may count as another ridiculous excuse for "queeny" gold. :biggrin:
I think this analysis is incomplete.
Asada was planning to do 3F+3Lo, 3Lo in Lp.
...
I bet she will be able to break +70 in PCS if she goes clean
...
And stop mocking people around. It's pathetic.
No, sweetheart. What is pathetic and extremele lame is your desperate attemp to 'tailor up' the real Yuna's skating at Worlds to the "planned" or "hypothetical" skating of Asada, but not to the real layout that she did. That's cheat and lie that you keep parading. Compare the hypothetical Mao with the hypothetical Yuna. Why do you all keep refusing doing that and always go back to Yuna's skate at Worlds-2013? Because in this case, if you finally play fair and compare the hypotheticl Mao with the hypothetical Yuna, you will have to increase Yuna's score as well. Then all your math will become void the same instant. Or are you saying that what Yuna showed us at Worlds with her juniorish combos is the maximum of her abilities? Ha! What a royalty. Incomplete analysis? Fine. Here I am. Yuna was 4th in BV at Worlds, i.e. off the podium, behind Mao and two yesterday-junior Gold and Li. She was pulled on the podium by GOE and PCS, the scenario that we have seen a lot with PChan. Moreover, she would be 4th in BV, which is the most objective factor in scoring, at Russian Junior Nationals as well. Lol. The Olympic champion can't challenge the stuff that three junior girls at RN had power and skills to perform. Her combo of three doubles was similar to the one (2T instead of 2Lo) that Chernyshova did, who was 8th (!) RJN, but unlike Yuna she did 3Lo-2T, which has a higher BV than Yuna's 3S-2T. And, in the sight of this juniorish layout of Yuna, your conditions for Mao to beat her is to go with the heck layout with 3A, 3F-3Lo, three jump combo with first triple, etc. How fair. And how rich of you to give Mao the chance to break 70 on PCS, while the hypothetical Yuna will have 75? 80?, since if the real one had 74 :laugh:. It's exactly what happened with Chan more than once- the guys had to perform 3 quads, two 3A and still they couldn't beat the Canadian who had much easier layout, not mentioning that half of it he spent with his butt on the ice. Same with Yuna, just on a smaller scale. Way easier layout with poor BV got pulled on the top of the podium by GOE and PCS. Been there, seen that. :disapp:
 

vera01

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Here I agree with you. The link to Yuna's score at Worlds-2013 indeed may count as another ridiculous excuse for "queeny" gold. :biggrin:

No, sweetheart. What is pathetic and extremele lame is your desperate attemp to 'tailor up' the real Yuna's skating at Worlds to the "planned" or "hypothetical" skating of Asada, but not to the real layout that she did. That's cheat and lie that you keep parading. Compare the hypothetical Mao with the hypothetical Yuna. Why do you all keep refusing doing that and always go back to Yuna's skate at Worlds-2013? Because in this case, if you finally play fair and compare the hypotheticl Mao with the hypothetical Yuna, you will have to increase Yuna's score as well. Then all your math will become void the same instant. Or are you saying that what Yuna showed us at Worlds with her juniorish combos is the maximum of her abilities? Ha! What a royalty. Incomplete analysis? Fine. Here I am. Yuna was 4th in BV at Worlds, i.e. off the podium, behind Mao and two yesterday-junior Gold and Li. She was pulled on the podium by GOE and PCS, the scenario that we have seen a lot with PChan. Moreover, she would be 4th in BV, which is the most objective factor in scoring, at Russian Junior Nationals as well. Lol. The Olympic champion can't challenge the stuff that three junior girls at RN had power and skills to perform. Her combo of three doubles was similar to the one (2T instead of 2Lo) that Chernyshova did, who was 8th (!) RJN, but unlike Yuna she did 3Lo-2T, which has a higher BV than Yuna's 3S-2T. And, in the sight of this juniorish layout of Yuna, your conditions for Mao to beat her is to go with the heck layout with 3A, 3F-3Lo, three jump combo with first triple, etc. How fair. And how rich of you to give Mao the chance to break 70 on PCS, while the hypothetical Yuna will have 75? 80?, since if the real one had 74 :laugh:. It's exactly what happened with Chan more than once- the guys had to perform 3 quads, two 3A and still they couldn't beat the Canadian who had much easier layout, not mentioning that half of it he spent with his butt on the ice. Same with Yuna, just on a smaller scale. Way easier layout with poor BV got pulled on the top of the podium by GOE and PCS. Been there, seen that. :disapp:

:rolleye:But unlike Russian ladies, Yuna actually has some artistry, and has good-quality jumps. You're saying she should be scored similar to some Russian girls who has tiny jumps and basically are close to looking like robots when they're skating. Oh, and many of them has either lip/flutz, which Yuna doesn't.

So you're now saying that Yuna deserved to be off podium, when Yuna and Mao landed same number of triples at Worlds? If you think judging was unfair at Worlds, why not write a letter to ISU saying Yuna basically stole Caro/Mao's gold and deserved to be off-podium?

Also, if you look at Mao's protocols from this season, she never landed a clean 3F+3Lo. Who won NHK with 5 triples?
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
There were practical reasons for such changes that have nothing to do with Yuna or anyone else.

I beg to differ. With any rule changes it is should always be controversial. There are those who lose out, and those who gain considerable advantages. While it can always be justified why such for the rule change occur in the first place, but it is the totallity of these effects, and the motivation behind of these rule changes should be under greater scrutiny. Timing is everything, the effect on the major stake holders of the sport holds the clue.

Put it this way, rules changes implies there are something wrong with the old rules in the first place, and tomorow's on going changing rules can mean there's something wrong with today's rules. However in reality, it doesn't make better skating, it can however manipulate the favourable outcome of the potential winners.

Ask yourself, if there's no Mao or Yuna in the ladies do you really think the culmination of these particular sets of rule changes would have occurred at that particular time regardless? Similarly, if Mao was born in Korea, and Yuna is born in Japan, would the same rules changes occur in that exact sequence and timeline? That is perhaps a fun hypothetical question worth asking.

That is what I love about Yuna's recent triumph, where every critic has practically counted her out, yet she came back with unfathomable self believe and do what all champions should able do, prove their critics wrong. Forget the Superstar, the uber nickname 'Queen'. She is a simple girl who work hard and deserve her success. She wins big despite the system and not because of it.
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
I beg to differ. With any rule changes it is should always be controversial. There are those who lose out, and those who gain considerable advantages. While it can always be justified why such for the rule change occur in the first place, but it is the totallity of these effects, and the motivation behind of these rule changes should be under greater scrutiny. Timing is everything, the effect on the major stake holders of the sport holds the clue.

Put it this way, rules changes implies there are something wrong with the old rules in the first place, and tomorow's on going changing rules can mean there's something wrong with today's rules. However in reality, it doesn't make better skating, it can however manipulate the favourable outcome of the potential winners.

Ask yourself, if there's no Mao or Yuna in the ladies do you really think the culmination of these particular sets of rule changes would have occurred at that particular time regardless? Similarly, if Mao was born in Korea, and Yuna is born in Japan, would the same rules changes occur in that exact sequence and timeline? That is perhaps a fun hypothetical question worth asking.

That is what I love about Yuna's recent triumph, where every critic has practically counted her out, yet she came back with unfathomable self believe and do what all champions should able do, prove their critics wrong. Forget the Superstar, the uber nickname 'Queen'. She is a simple girl who work hard and deserve her success. She wins big despite the system and not because of it.



Are you suggesting that other skaters dont work as hard and deserve less sucess? That is an unfair assessment. Yuna is not a poor little girl she is the top skater of the world and has acess to the best, as does mao and caro. Every skater that shows up the a competition works hard and are deseving. Some are better than other, but all work hard.
 

MiRé

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Here I agree with you. The link to Yuna's score at Worlds-2013 indeed may count as another ridiculous excuse for "queeny" gold. :biggrin:

Explain Mao's score of 134.37 with that 5 clean triple program. Who's the overscored one?

No, sweetheart. What is pathetic and extremele lame is your desperate attemp to 'tailor up' the real Yuna's skating at Worlds to the "planned" or "hypothetical" skating of Asada, but not to the real layout that she did. That's cheat and lie that you keep parading. Compare the hypothetical Mao with the hypothetical Yuna.

the post #142 IS what you were asking. I added Yuna's and Caro's onto Mao's. No need to have both Yuna and Mao have hypothetical scores when you can just add top points that Yuna and Caro earned right into Mao's. (of course to the same elements). It's pathetic that you're not getting this.

Why do you all keep refusing doing that and always go back to Yuna's skate at Worlds-2013? Because in this case, if you finally play fair and compare the hypotheticl Mao with the hypothetical Yuna, you will have to increase Yuna's score as well. Then all your math will become void the same instant.

again, look at the hypothetical scores I made or even those that other posters made. You can't insult other people and their maths when you can't even provide your own. So why not give your own explanation in math? Or is it that you can't do it because you know you're wrong? I think so.

Or are you saying that what Yuna showed us at Worlds with her juniorish combos is the maximum of her abilities? Ha! What a royalty.

Yuna's combos are juniorish? In what extent her combos are juniorish? Pretty sure there are only few skaters that execute 3Lz+3T. Can Mao even land a correct Lutz? Can Mao land a consistent 3S? So according to your logic, every ladies are juniorish. How dumb you are.

Incomplete analysis? Fine. Here I am. Yuna was 4th in BV at Worlds, i.e. off the podium, behind Mao and two yesterday-junior Gold and Li. She was pulled on the podium by GOE and PCS, the scenario that we have seen a lot with PChan. Moreover, she would be 4th in BV, which is the most objective factor in scoring, at Russian Junior Nationals as well. Lol. The Olympic champion can't challenge the stuff that three junior girls at RN had power and skills to perform. Her combo of three doubles was similar to the one (2T instead of 2Lo) that Chernyshova did, who was 8th (!) RJN, but unlike Yuna she did 3Lo-2T, which has a higher BV than Yuna's 3S-2T. And, in the sight of this juniorish layout of Yuna, your conditions for Mao to beat her is to go with the heck layout with 3A, 3F-3Lo, three jump combo with first triple, etc. How fair.

Again, you're not factoring in the fact that Mao had a terrible skate (who still made it to PB). Yuna skated clean and deserved her points. PCHan on the other hand, is debatable. The only thing Yuna lacks is 3Lo and you're saying that that's juniorsh. The Olymic Silver Medalist can't even land a darn good clean correct edge lutz. What else? Her UR problem with her flip and her inconsistent 3S. Who's juniorsh now? Just let you know, 3Lo<3LZ so I don't get your logic at all. Conditions for Mao to beat Yuna would be skating to a clean program. Not just clean though, with beautifully executed jumps as well as good edges and choreography, a program that looks effortless. WHICH Mao failed to do so

And how rich of you to give Mao the chance to break 70 on PCS, while the hypothetical Yuna will have 75? 80?, since if the real one had 74 :laugh:. It's exactly what happened with Chan more than once- the guys had to perform 3 quads, two 3A and still they couldn't beat the Canadian who had much easier layout, not mentioning that half of it he spent with his butt on the ice. Same with Yuna, just on a smaller scale. Way easier layout with poor BV got pulled on the top of the podium by GOE and PCS. Been there, seen that. :disapp:

What explanation will you make for a terrible skate that Mao had but receving 68 in PCS? Pretty sure THAT is overscored. And again, you can't blame Yuna for skating a clean program and receiving those GOE and PCS. Mao lost because she didn't skate a clean program. You're complaining as if Yuna and Mao both skated to a clean program. NO Mao had a TERRIBLE skate at Worlds so her scores were lower than Yuna's. Are you that dumb to not realize that?

Complain more
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Are you suggesting that other skaters dont work as hard and deserve less sucess? That is an unfair assessment. Yuna is not a poor little girl she is the top skater of the world and has acess to the best, as does mao and caro. Every skater that shows up the a competition works hard and are deseving. Some are better than other, but all work hard.

Uh... lets not go there shall we. It is a juvenile tactic to accuse me of something I have not said nor intend, as well condemn this 'figurative imagination' as if you are some how morally superior to this conclusion. Read it again, digest it properly. You are reading way too much into a simple statement, and clearly shows enough insecurity to reach the conclusion you come up with.
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Uh... lets not go there shall we. It is a juvenile tactic to accuse me of something I have not said nor intend, as well condemn this 'figurative imagination' as if you are some how morally superior to this conclusion. Read it again, digest it properly. You are reading way too much into a simple statement, and clearly shows enough insecurity to reach the conclusion you come up with.

Juvinile is to say rules were changed to benefit one skater. Juvinile is to pretend one skater works harder than the other
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Juvinile is to say rules were changed to benefit one skater. Juvinile is to pretend one skater works harder than the other

Don't mix up the issue. First is half truth. It benefit more than one skater actually.
Second, you come up with that entirely on your own mate lol. I have not pretend anything, nor have said anything about who works harder.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Judges get excited when a skater goes clean and the marks can be a bit higher than is maybe reasonable - but that's okay because said skater skated PERFECTLY so the judges have a reason to get excited and hand out big marks. That is why Yuna's FS scores at the Olympics and Worlds this year were so high. If Mao skates clean, then, no, she isn't likely to overtake Yuna, but I have a feeling that her score would be higher than the one people calculate just by adding up all the elements as if she skated cleanly because if Mao was perfect, she'd probably get some love from the judges for skating perfectly too and the gap between her and Yuna wouldn't be all that big, and this gap would be deserved because Yuna is a much stronger jumper than Mao and also has a lot more speed and this differential is larger than the one created by Mao having much stronger spins and spirals, and sometimes footwork, than Yuna because jumps are worth a whole lot more under IJS and the GOE is factored differently allowing skaters to gain more points for jumps as opposed to spins and spirals. We saw Zijun Li get 127 points at Worlds and then the rest of the season with one mistake she is under 120...the big jump up in scores was because she was perfect at Worlds, the same thing goes for Gracie Gold at Nationals.

I really have no issues with Yuna's scores when she is foot perfect, and if people are complaining about getting "held-up" for bad performances, Mao and Carolina are way more representative of that. Yuna rarely skates badly and during the few instances she did, she either did not win the event or did not get hugely inflated scores:

SC 06 - wins SP, 4th in FS, 3rd overall
Worlds 07 - wins SP, 4th in FS, 3rd overall
Worlds 08 - 6th in SP, wins FS, 3rd overall
GPF 08 - wins SP, 2nd in FS, 2nd overall
SA 09 - wins SP and overall, but was 2nd in FS with a score of only 112
Worlds 10 - 7th in SP, wins FS, 2nd overall
Worlds 11 - 1st in SP, 2nd in FS, 2nd overall

Sure Yuna has won a lot but she is no Patrick Chan, when she doesn't skate close to her best she usually doesn't win. And really, in those events I mentioned, she didn't really bomb for the most part, someone else just skated better. Mao, Carolina, and especially someone like Patrick Chan have won events skating far worse in one of their programs than Yuna did in most of the ones I just mentioned.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What is pathetic and extremele lame is your desperate attemp to 'tailor up' the real Yuna's skating at Worlds to the "planned" or "hypothetical" skating of Asada, but not to the real layout that she did.

The reason that I believe your analysis of Mao's program is incomplete is that it did not take into account the increase in PCSs that automatically follows a clean and commanding performance. Mao floats like a butterfly (PCS); all she has to do is sting like a bee (TES) to reap the reward.

In the LP just as it was skated, and without needing to upgrade anything, Mao made four major errors. If she had skated cleanly, with +1 GOE on each of the four imperfect jumps, she would have gained the following increase in points on the TES side.

3A +3.4
3F +3.6
2Lz +1.7
3F+2Lo+2Lo +1.85

This is a total of 10.85 points that Mao left on the table on her four faulty jumps.

She lost the TES portion of the LP by only 8.77 points. A clean Mao would have won over Yuna's actual performance by 2.09 points.

On the PCS side, with a perfectly clean, exquisitely gorgeous skate, IMHO Mao is capable of something like

SS 9.25 (speed is the only advantage Kim and Kostner have over Mao in this category)
Tr 9.25
P&E 9.50
INT 9.50
CH 9.50

This adds up to a total PCS of 75.2. Kim's was 73.61.

With a stronger performance Mao could have won in both TES and PCS in the LP. (If you like I can do the short program, too, and try to figure how much Mao left on the table by making major errors on two of her three jumping passes.)

It is possible that, PCS-wise, I am more enamored of a perfect Mao program than the judges are. To me, the floating like a butterfly thing is front and center. :yes:
 
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coolboogie22

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
To me, except Yu-Na Kim, I don't think necessary that Kostner and Asada are sure to get a medal.

Don't forget that all Olympic experience from Kostner was a failure. and Asada need to be consistent with her jump, she is impredictable, she could be amazing or have a meeldown. I prefer to not predict about Kostner and Asada because their performance are unpredictable.
 

bara1968

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
No, sweetheart. What is pathetic and extremele lame is your desperate attemp to 'tailor up' the real Yuna's skating at Worlds to the "planned" or "hypothetical" skating of Asada, but not to the real layout that she did. That's cheat and lie that you keep parading. Compare the hypothetical Mao with the hypothetical Yuna. Why do you all keep refusing doing that and always go back to Yuna's skate at Worlds-2013? Because in this case, if you finally play fair and compare the hypotheticl Mao with the hypothetical Yuna, you will have to increase Yuna's score as well. Then all your math will become void the same instant. Or are you saying that what Yuna showed us at Worlds with her juniorish combos is the maximum of her abilities? Ha! What a royalty. Incomplete analysis? Fine. Here I am. Yuna was 4th in BV at Worlds, i.e. off the podium, behind Mao and two yesterday-junior Gold and Li. She was pulled on the podium by GOE and PCS, the scenario that we have seen a lot with PChan. Moreover, she would be 4th in BV, which is the most objective factor in scoring, at Russian Junior Nationals as well. Lol. The Olympic champion can't challenge the stuff that three junior girls at RN had power and skills to perform. Her combo of three doubles was similar to the one (2T instead of 2Lo) that Chernyshova did, who was 8th (!) RJN, but unlike Yuna she did 3Lo-2T, which has a higher BV than Yuna's 3S-2T. And, in the sight of this juniorish layout of Yuna, your conditions for Mao to beat her is to go with the heck layout with 3A, 3F-3Lo, three jump combo with first triple, etc. How fair. And how rich of you to give Mao the chance to break 70 on PCS, while the hypothetical Yuna will have 75? 80?, since if the real one had 74 :laugh:. It's exactly what happened with Chan more than once- the guys had to perform 3 quads, two 3A and still they couldn't beat the Canadian who had much easier layout, not mentioning that half of it he spent with his butt on the ice. Same with Yuna, just on a smaller scale. Way easier layout with poor BV got pulled on the top of the podium by GOE and PCS. Been there, seen that. :disapp:

1. I already provided how Yuna can maximize her TES score and then non of her competitors would be able to win over her etc, long time ago.

2. In last post, I already gave two possible TES score potential for Asada beating Yuna's in the both cases that she goes clean with a) what she did in worlds b) what she planned to do in Worlds. No need to repeat.

The reason why I chose Yuna's current layout is it is very likely that she will continue to do this one next season in that she did so in this worlds, and worlds 2011. Same reason for Asada, it is likely that she will go for 8 triple program in olympics, as she wanted to do so in Worlds.

3. You purposedly ignored that Yuna is doing 3Lz+3T, 3Lz, 3F in her LP. No point to make comparison within her easier combo to others.

4. Speaking of which, some skaters need to do harder jump layout to beat some other skaters with superior techniques/ or presentation skill, I don't find anything wrong/unjustifiable with that. Superior jumps should be rewarded better than average jumps as terrible jumps with mistake in landing etc. should be punished.

Since judging by basevalue is far from being objective in that it does not reflect how skaters actually executed tech elements at all, I will use TES.
(judging by basevalue makes Kostner with +50 like what? 13th in LP? absurd.)

Let's see "Yesterday-junior" Zijun Li's TES from Worlds. She attempted brilliant 7 triple program(3F+3T, 2A+3T etc), but made only one mistake.(edge call in 3Lz)
Base value : 60.60 TES : 69.41

Her TES is rightfully +3.45 points higher than Asada with 4 mistakes, +8.07 pts higher than Kostner with 2 costly mistakes.

But Zijun Li placed 4th in LP. Why? Because of PCS gap between her and those two were rather HUGE : -10.28 with Asada, -12.56 with Kostner.

Zijun Li should complete more triples cleanly than those two to even attempt to close the PCS gap. (You see who held up by PCS now? :laugh:)

But I don't find it necessarily wrong, since presentation skill from those two were far better than Li.

Same logic goes with jumping ability for Asada vs Yuna/or if consistent, Kostner. Asada needs to attempt harder tech layout to close the gap between their jumping techniques represented by GOE. i.e. Even if Asada nails her jumps, she will not get same level of GOE in 3Lz, 3F, 3T within those two, rightfully so.
 

cheerio2

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
os168 said:
I beg to differ. With any rule changes it is should always be controversial. There are those who lose out, and those who gain considerable advantages. While it can always be justified why such for the rule change occur in the first place, but it is the totallity of these effects, and the motivation behind of these rule changes should be under greater scrutiny. Timing is everything, the effect on the major stake holders of the sport holds the clue.

You haven't really explained why you think the old rules were better besides you think the timing of the rule changes hurts Yuna. But taking Yuna out of it for a second, do you like the old rules better, if so, why? Do you think an excellent 2A should be worth more than a 3Lutz; or a mild UR should be worth less than a double? These are issues that many skating fans have brought up in the four years prior to the rule changes. I have read discussions of all of these issues by skating fans long before the rule changes were implemented.

First off, I don't think the changes negatively affect Yuna overall. Secondly, if rules should be changed becuse it's better for the sport, then they should be changed, regardless of who is or is not affected.

Put it this way, rules changes implies there are something wrong with the old rules in the first place, and tomorow's on going changing rules can mean there's something wrong with today's rules. However in reality, it doesn't make better skating, it can however manipulate the favourable outcome of the potentikal winners.

So are you against rule changes then? Do you not think it's necessary for the sport to reevaluate its rules occasionally and try to improve things that aren't working that well? I think so.

Did you also disagree with the timing of ISU's 2007 rule change making flutz penalties mandatory? I'm sure that caught some newly debuted skaters like Mao by surprise, because during their entire lives, the judging under both CoP and 6.0 basically did not care about proper edge technique. Look at all the Olympic champions from Lipinski (flutzing) to Hughes (flutzing) to Arakawa (lipping) that all had edge problems. Cohen also had a flutz and was not penalized at all for it in 2006. Then, suddenly in 2007, new skaters like Mao are told they will be penalized for flutzing when it is already too late to change their technique. But the fact is, regardless of who the rule change affected, the change was still good for the sport as a whole. People have been annoyed with flutzing for a long time, and it is fair to reward skaters that do have proper edge technique.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
It is possible that, PCS-wise, I am more enamored of a perfect Mao program than the judges are. To me, the floating like a butterfly thing is front and center. :yes:

I'm right there with you, Math! Mao brings something to skating that is unmatched by anyone else. Besides that airborne quality, there's her carriage and the way she moves her arms. Which is why I always hope that this hypothetical clean performance does indeed come to pass one day. And since Mao is clearly someone who doesn't give up, no matter what, I feel there's always a possibility.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
But unlike Russian ladies, Yuna actually has some artistry, and has good-quality jumps. You're saying she should be scored similar to some Russian girls who has tiny jumps and basically are close to looking like robots when they're skating.
Russian ladies have much superior artisty than Yuna's robotic skating with same mimic no matter what music is playing. They also have good-quality jumps and some of them like Sotnikova are much better spinners. :p
How dumb you are.
...
I don't get your logic at all.
You can use your own words in italics as my reply.
1. I already provided how Yuna can maximize her TES score and then non of her competitors would be able to win over her etc, long time ago.

2. In last post, I already gave two possible TES score potential for Asada beating Yuna's in the both cases that she goes clean with a) what she did in worlds No need to repeat.

3. You purposedly ignored that Yuna is doing 3Lz+3T, 3Lz, 3F in her LP. No point to make comparison within her easier combo to others.

4. Speaking of which, some skaters need to do harder jump layout to beat some other skaters with superior techniques/ or presentation skill.

Since judging by basevalue is far from being objective in that it does not reflect how skaters actually executed tech elements at all, I will use TES.

5. But Zijun Li placed 4th in LP. Why? Because of PCS gap between her and those two were rather HUGE : -10.28 with Asada, -12.56 with Kostner.

(You see who held up by PCS now? :laugh:)
1. So the hypothetical Yuna will win over anyone hypothetical. Gotcha.

2. Indeed no need to repeat, especially since before I did the same myself. With Mao's layout at Worlds-2013 her mistakes cost her about 10 points. So, even if she hadn't made them, she wouldn't have been able to reach Yuna's inflated score.

3. I didn't. None of the jumps you mentioned didn't change the fact she was 4th in BV, mainly thanks to her two easier combos.

4. Hypothetically speaking, yes. But here we are talking about the certain skaters. Yuna's techniques and especially presentation skills are not superior at all, neither to Caro nor Mao. And not to them only.

Moreover, claiming that TES is always more objective than BV is funny. PChan got the world records in SP at the recent Worlds for standstill landings practically for all jumps and "objective" +3 GOE for that.

5. .. and even HUGER with Kim: -15.48. Her GOE gap with Yuna was -7.7. Obviously for that "only one mistake(edge call in 3Lz) in brilliant 7 triple program(3F+3T, 2A+3T etc.)" as you put it, compared to 6-triple prog of Kim.
(I see. Yuna was help up by PCS and GOE. Thanks for pointing that out. :))
The reason that I believe your analysis of Mao's program is incomplete is that it did not take into account the increase in PCSs that automatically follows a clean and commanding performance. Mao floats like a butterfly (PCS);
I know! I mean about butterfly Mao. But infortunately I can't share your optimism regarding her PCS increasing if she skates clean, when Yuna is competing. Because there is no history to back or/and prove this claim. Mao was clean in SP at Oly, she was still lower in PCS. She was almost clean in FS at Worlds-2010 (got one <), she was still lower in PCS than Yuna with a fall and a miss of one element. Moreover, at the same event in SP where Kim was 7th with crappy skating, she was still second in PCS losing just barely (30.96/30.28). :disapp:
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
I know! I mean about butterfly Mao. But infortunately I can't share your optimism regarding her PCS increasing if she skates clean, when Yuna is competing. Because there is no history to back or/and prove this claim. Mao was clean in SP at Oly, she was still lower in PCS. She was almost clean in FS at Worlds-2010 (got one <), she was still lower in PCS than Yuna with a fall and a miss of one element. Moreover, at the same event in SP where Kim was 7th with crappy skating, she was still second in PCS losing just barely (30.96/30.28). :disapp:
I think you can guess easily if u are figure skating fan, that competition was held right after olympic which kim had big winning, kim had advantage. So, It is not fair / proper example to guess if asada and kim go clean, would Asada surpass kim in pcs.
 
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