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Thread: What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean

  1. #286
    Miserere Nobis
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    that's true but she's attacking anyone who dare to say otherwise..
    I haven't seen any such attacks. Can you show me the posts?

  2. #287
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    I haven't seen any such attacks. Can you show me the posts?
    she attacked jaylee for no other reason.. and start calling her bot, stupid, etc. when in fact when you read jaylee's post.. she was just making a case from the start.. jaylee is actually a kwan fan first and foremost.. before she became a yuna fan for your information..

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    I haven't seen any such attacks. Can you show me the posts?
    Many of them got deleted by Mathman.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    she attacked jaylee for no other reason.. and start calling her bot, stupid, etc. when in fact when you read jaylee's post.. she was just making a case from the start.. jaylee is actually a kwan fan first and foremost.. before she became a yuna fan for your information..
    Again, can you please show me the post?

    I'm well aware that jaylee is a Yuna fan; I'm not sure how that's relevant.

    ETA: Thank you, bara1968. I never saw the posts, but misunderstandings are quite common when communicating through text. Whatever the context of these posts was, mskater93 was making a case FOR Yuna, not AGAINST her.

  5. #290
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    Again, can you please show me the post?

    I'm well aware that jaylee is a Yuna fan; I'm not sure how that's relevant.

    ETA: Thank you, bara1968. I never saw the posts, but misunderstandings are quite common when communicating through text. Whatever the context of these posts was, mskater93 was making a case FOR Yuna, not AGAINST her.
    actually it is relevant because not all yuna fans are bots.. some are defending her because someone call her arrogant without proof and just making up stories which is not fair.. and then start claiming that yuna only won because of cheating..talked about hypocrisy..

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    actually it is relevant because not all yuna fans are bots.. some are defending her because someone call her arrogant without proof and just making up stories which is not fair.. and then start claiming that yuna only won because of cheating..talked about hypocrisy..
    Wait, what? I'm not sure how we strayed so far from the topic at hand. All I was trying to say was that you misinterpreted mskater93's post to be attacking Yuna when it was simply offering a logical argument for her victory. I've seen other posts claiming that Yuna cheated her way to the gold medal and that ALL Yuna fans are Yunabots ( ), but mskater93's was not one of them. In fact, I think that most of those posts were deleted as contrary to the purpose of this thread.

    Anyway, sorry for any confusion.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    Wait, what? I'm not sure how we strayed so far from the topic at hand. All I was trying to say was that you misinterpreted mskater93's post to be attacking Yuna when it was simply offering a logical argument for her victory. I've seen other posts claiming that Yuna cheated her way to the gold medal and that ALL Yuna fans are Yunabots ( ), but mskater93's was not one of them. In fact, I think that most of those posts were deleted as contrary to the purpose of this thread.

    Anyway, sorry for any confusion.
    I think cooper is referring "let's talk", not mskater93 in her(his) post.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by bara1968 View Post
    I think cooper is referring "let's talk", not mskater93 in her(his) post.
    Yes, I assumed that also. I was just pointing out that mskater93 was not intending to display the same attitude.

  9. #294
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    Wait, what? I'm not sure how we strayed so far from the topic at hand. All I was trying to say was that you misinterpreted mskater93's post to be attacking Yuna when it was simply offering a logical argument for her victory. I've seen other posts claiming that Yuna cheated her way to the gold medal and that ALL Yuna fans are Yunabots ( ), but mskater93's was not one of them. In fact, I think that most of those posts were deleted as contrary to the purpose of this thread.

    Anyway, sorry for any confusion.
    i'm not talking about mskater93.. i'm just saying that not all her fans are bots..

  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    ...I feel that this performance would probably have won under 6.0 as well.
    Oh, goodness yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bara1968 View Post
    You keep saying it's simple math, but my simple math says if she perform first 4 jumps (3A, 3F+3Lo, 3Lo, 3Lz without UR or e)in LP cleanly with +1 GOE each, she would get almost 9 more TES than she actually got. (meaning, easily +75 or more in TES already, if she also cleanly performed 3F+2Lo+2Lo.)
    That's a really clear explanation. Thanks!

  12. #297
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    I'm a fan of Yu-Na, Carolina, Mao, Akiko, Ashley, Kanako, Adelina, Zijun, Christina, Kaetlyn, Elizaveta and about a dozen other skaters. The only skater anyone could call me a "bot" for is Michelle Kwan, though Michelle predates talk of "bots"; ubers is the preferred moniker. But even in my uberness I'm not so blind that I can't see where Michelle was lacking. Some people get so wrapped up in their fanaticism that they can't accept any kind opinion (or sometimes even facts) which contradict their views. I try to avoid those kind of people...

    I enjoy skating a lot more now than I did when Michelle was competing b/c I get to cheer for everyone. That's the beauty in being a fan of the sport in general rather than clinging to just one skater. I'm not emotionally invested in any of these ladies so win or lose, I'm generally happy b/c someone I like ends up winning. I do disagree with results or criticize skaters from time to time but I don't bash skaters. I try to make all of my criticisms constructive and voice my opinions without insisting others agree with me (cause that's annoying...).

  13. #298
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    Going back to the discussion: The question is "What would podium in Sochi if Kostner/Asada and Kim go clean?"

    One way to look at it, as many have, is to look at what would happen if they were clean on their planned content; a perfectly reasonable way to go at it.

    But for me the question is under what conditions would they would "go clean." So for me, you have to look in what it would take for those three skaters to skate clean programs. Asada has a potentially high BV but she has yet to skate a high BV program clean, with the exception of 4CC and even then she got a few URs in the FS on those key elements (3A, 3F-3L and 2A-3T).


    Here's Mao's BV at the last few WCs in the FS:

    2007: 65.48 (3A, 3F-3L, 2A-3T<)
    2008: 56.40 (Waxel(zero points), 3F-3T, 3F-3L<)
    2009: 57.25 (3A-2T, 3A<)
    2010: 59.30 (3A. 3A<-2T)
    2011: 51.20 (3A<<, 2A-3T<<)
    2012: 39.88 (1A, 2A-2T)
    2013: 62.30 (3A (major error); no 3-3; 2A-3T)

    For the record here's Carolina's BV during the same period

    2007: 47.53 (lots of pops)
    2008: 64.28 (but lots of -GOE; She did attempt 3F-3T-2T and 2A-3T)
    2009: 35.16 (not a single clean triple).
    2010: 55.27 (3F-3T)
    2011: 51.62 (2A-3T)
    2012: 53.04 (2A-3T)
    2013: 50.75 (3F-3T; fall and downgrade on 3S)

    Yuna's BV

    2007: 52.61 (3F-3T; 2A-3T, low BV due to zayaking)
    2008: 58.51 (3F-3T, 2A-3T)
    2009: 52.89 (3F-3T, zero points for a spin)
    2010: 57.05 (3Z-3T, 2A-3T, fall on 3S, waxel)
    2011: 51.70 (3Z-3T; two pops)
    2013: 58.22 (3Z-3T)

    In general, Mao has had a higher BV than Yuna, but because she has lower +GOE, she has always lost to Yuna ultimately.

    Carolina has managed to get on the podium in the last three WC with much lower BV than her competitors. At 2012 Worlds, where she won, Akiko (55.21), Ashley (57.70), Alena (56.57) Kexin Zhang (55.40), Yretha (55.63) all had higher BV. Of course Carolina got the highest PCS scores, but she got a tremendous amount of +GOE to get the highest TES for the competition.

    Carolina is most likely go clean, for the most part, on her current content. Even if she didn't upgrade her current content, I think it would be enough to beat Mao. Carolina, to her credit, has developed a smart strategy that involved her skating clean and grabbing that +GOE.

    But I think Carolina needs a higher BV if she wants to beat Yuna, and I'm not sure if she would necessarily be clean with harder content, though if she simply did a 3F-3T in the SP, (which she has done in competition; so totally possible) she could give Yuna a run for her money.

    Mao, has had an inconsistent 2A-3T (no UR) at the World stage (though as kwaniac, pointed out was clean this year). The last time she did a 3F-3L clean was 2007 and a 3F-3T was in 2008. So that's why I don't think (based on current analysis) that she could do a high BV program clean. I'd love for her to prove me wrong though.

    So that's why I'd stick to my podium of Yu-Na, Carolina and Mao.

    But hey it's early, things could change, right?

  14. #299
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Mao, on the other hand hasn't done a clean 2A-3T (no UR) at the World stage in several years
    Mao's 2A-3T at worlds was clean this year and earned 1.40 points in GOE.

    In regards to the rest of your post, I think you're missing the point of the hypothetical scenario. I'm taking clean to mean no URs, no negative GOE, an assumption that every element was executed well. Mao's BV of her SP and FS along with +GOE (not as much as Yu-Na or Carolina of course) and a hike in her PCS (which would happen if she were to skate cleanly) would make it very difficult for anyone to catch her over the course of the competition.

  15. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I'm a fan of Yu-Na, Carolina, Mao, Akiko, Ashley, Kanako, Adelina, Zijun, Christina, Kaetlyn, Elizaveta and about a dozen other skaters. The only skater anyone could call me a "bot" for is Michelle Kwan, though Michelle predates talk of "bots"; ubers is the preferred moniker. But even in my uberness I'm not so blind that I can't see where Michelle was lacking. Some people get so wrapped up in their fanaticism that they can't accept any kind opinion (or sometimes even facts) which contradict their views. I try to avoid those kind of people...

    I enjoy skating a lot more now than I did when Michelle was competing b/c I get to cheer for everyone. That's the beauty in being a fan of the sport in general rather than clinging to just one skater. I'm not emotionally invested in any of these ladies so win or lose, I'm generally happy b/c someone I like ends up winning. I do disagree with results or criticize skaters from time to time but I don't bash skaters. I try to make all of my criticisms constructive and voice my opinions without insisting others agree with me (cause that's annoying...).
    Well said. Both constructive criticism and constructive fandom make for good discussions. I don't feel emotionally invested in anyone now, and I find I definitely enjoy skating more now as a result too. It's great just how many skaters are doing 3-3s or attempting them. A great time for the sport.

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