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Thread: What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean

  1. #331
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    ^^Agreed.

    I know people hate on skaters when it comes to results but the skaters actually have NOTHING to do with the scores they receive. They don't score themselves. They go out and skate and the rest is up to the people on the panel. Due to reputation/politics certain skaters get a boost while others do not but, again, that's not something the skater has any control over. It's easy to point the finger at the skater but it's the judges and the judging system that is to blame...not the skater.

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    that's true but she's attacking anyone who dare to say otherwise..and start generalizing that a fan is a bot..which is not even true..
    Actually, I prefer Gracie Gold to ALL other Senior ladies right now but am open to people pointing out her deficiencies (has issues with going squeaky clean, crappy choreo last season, looks stiff at times) and would absolutely have happy piddles if she did skate clean at the Olympics and would hope the judges would too and give her gigantic scores. Of the three top ladies who would have to "give it away" to not be on the podium, I do like Kostner the best right now from her 2011 and 2012 season programs where she has definitely become Lori N's muse. I thought her Bolero program was mesmerizing. I respect Kim's and Asada's skating both and Kim was clearly the deserved winner. As I said, it wouldn't have mattered if she won by 1, 5, 22, or 50 points, she was the clear winner. Period.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    Do we need to clarify that score inflation is NOT the fault of the skaters, but rather of the judging panel/COP? It's not like the skaters are bribing the judges to overlook their mistakes.

    Mao wasn't proud to win NHK, as the post-competition press conference showed -- she had to be pressed by the reporters to say something positive about her performance, and Akiko actually had to COMFORT her for winning a medal she didn't feel she deserved.
    I would just like to say that I agree with this wholeheartedly. It is ridiculous how obtuse this thread has become, and resorting to blaming the skaters themselves and bashing each other- I'm relieved that this is nothing but an online forum. Some people on here make football hooligans look like Virgin Marys. Figure Skating is a subjective sport, and the fault (if there ever is one...oh hang on, wait. THERE'S ALWAYS SOMETHING WRONG) lies with the judges and everybody else behind the scenes.

    What good does it do slandering skaters themselves? Does it actually make some of you -bots, -ubers, and whatnot feel better about yourselves vilifying these athletes who as far as I'm concerned, couldn't care less about debates like these because they are most probably working hard to give their best performances so that people like us, who can come off worse than the ISU judges would feel satisfied? It is issues like these that drive people away from any sport because frankly, it is a big turn off.

    Now, off of my high horse, can we all please just go back to the original, hypothetical question? I could not emphasise that HYPOTHETICAL bit any more than most people have.

    IMO, it would be an Asada, Kim, Kostner podium- which a close fight for gold for the first two. Asada winning gold because of her fantastical TES and Kim a close silver because of her genius PCS. Kostner shouldn't be far off, but I have a feeling that much like Vancouver, somehow, it'll turn into another Kim and Asada whatever.

    Are there any moderators on this forum AT ALL? I have read far too many posts that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else. To those who are guilty, and you know who you are, STOP RUINING THE FUN OF THE ******* SPORT.

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    she's not gonna' answer your question because she doesn't know anything.
    Me not gonna answer? Come on. You don't believe in it yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by bara1968 View Post
    How can possibly clean Asada not reach 148+ in LP with that layout? (This thread is all about assuming top 3 all go clean- so assume Asada goes clean and give her right base value + possibly positive(+1) GOE. She got +134 with 4 mistakes. Start from there. )

    Clearly You are assuming that yourself is smart enough to read protocol, then prove it. What is the potential base value that Asada can get when she goes 3A, 3F+3Lo, 3Lo, 3Lz, 3F+2Lo+2Lo cleanly? If she goes clean, it is very reasonable to assume that she will get some positive GOE as she did before. So give her +1 GOE for each jump. What is her TES now?

    You are the one who is not providing ANY logical reasoning but trolling around with talking invalid argument over and over again.
    Oh no, sweetheart. That is where you are entirely wrong. Trolling is your speed. You talk about the real score and the real protocols at Worlds regarding Yuna but you speak about the hypothetcal Mao's layout that wasn't there at all. Of course you can click on the link http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FS_Scores.pdf and see the layout. Yet, you type the list of jumps that is not on the protocol and then you "tailor" it up to the real protocol's score. That's dumb cheat as type of trolling from Yuna fans, which I got used to. And surely you know how to use math or at least the calculator. Or maybe not indeed. Not that I am here for the charity of basic schooling. But why not have a mercy on your hopeless soul as someone else put it .
    The difference between Yuna's score and Mao's score in FS is 13.97. So, let's follow your "advice" and start from 134.37 with 4 mistakes. Imagine that those 4 mistakes never happened and add +1 GOE for each jump. Total difference to add to her TES is 10.19 (3A: 9.50, difference to add: 3.14; 3F: 6.0, difference to add 3.50; 3Z: 6.7, difference to add 1.4; 3F+2Lo+2Lo=5.3+1.8+1.8=8.9*1.1=9.79+1.3 GOE=11.09, difference to add: 2.15). She still wouldn't have been able to reach Yuna's inflated score even if she hadn't made those mistakes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    And please, read the title of this thread. Skaters are skating hypothetically in this thread. You have eyes. Use them wisely
    I am sure OP won't mind at all if you answer my question here. Why do you need a special thread for that? Unless you have nothing to say.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCzar View Post
    Are there any moderators on this forum AT ALL? I have read far too many posts that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else. To those who are guilty, and you know who you are, STOP RUINING THE FUN OF THE ******* SPORT.
    Just want to stick up for the diligent GS mods.
    From my vantage point, I think that they are absolutely committed to wrangling everything on GS -- a job much easier said than done. A pro bono labor of love, no less.

    Unfortunately, this thread must be creating a huge (and apparently never-ending) amount of work for them.
    The ugly tone of some posts is disheartening, but I have no doubt that the mods are doing their best to enforce the GS guidelines, and that they always take all violations seriously.

  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    I am sure OP won't mind at all if you answer my question here. Why do you need a special thread for that? Unless you have nothing to say.
    Again, you have ignored my post entirely, and gave another ridiculous excuse. You know what that tells me? That YOU have nothing to say because you know you're wrong so decides to goof off even more. Like I said earlier, use your eyes wisely (or your brain). And what? the OP won't mind? sure he won't, but you are you commenting on a thread where posters post about non-realistic situation, and you're in your own island complaining.

    Are you gonna complain more?

  7. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    Do we need to clarify that score inflation is NOT the fault of the skaters, but rather of the judging panel/COP? It's not like the skaters are bribing the judges to overlook their mistakes.

    Mao wasn't proud to win NHK, as the post-competition press conference showed -- she had to be pressed by the reporters to say something positive about her performance, and Akiko actually had to COMFORT her for winning a medal she didn't feel she deserved.
    I do not criticize Mao and I don't need to at all.
    I just informed a case of 'travesty of justice' last season to 'let's talk' who should be interested in it.

    if he/she is really concern about the score inflation for a specific skater, he/she'd better focus on this case above all.
    The unreasonably high score even the skater was embarrassed at.

  8. #338
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    I want Gracie Gold to be 4th because I don't want her to take anything from the top 3 who are my favorite (some are more than the others)
    Of the rest, I like Akiko the most, but I don't think she will make anything out of a 4th place finish. Gracie needs to be 4th because the top 3 will cross the bridge, and she can become #1. Akiko can be 5th.
    Ashley can be 6th.

    Korpi can be 7th. Unless Hicks is competing, then I want her to be 8th. The rest of them, I don't care for.

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk;747340
    Oh no, sweetheart. That is where you are entirely wrong. Trolling is your speed. You talk about the real score and the real protocols at Worlds regarding Yuna but you speak about the hypothetcal Mao's layout that wasn't there at all. Of course you can click on the link [url
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf[/url] and see the layout. Yet, you type the list of jumps that is not on the protocol and then you "tailor" it up to the real protocol's score. That's dumb cheat as type of trolling from Yuna fans, which I got used to. And surely you know how to use math or at least the calculator. Or maybe not indeed. Not that I am here for the charity of basic schooling. But why not have a mercy on your hopeless soul as someone else put it .
    The difference between Yuna's score and Mao's score in FS is 13.97. So, let's follow your "advice" and start from 134.37 with 4 mistakes. Imagine that those 4 mistakes never happened and add +1 GOE for each jump. Total difference to add to her TES is 10.19 (3A: 9.50, difference to add: 3.14; 3F: 6.0, difference to add 3.50; 3Z: 6.7, difference to add 1.4; 3F+2Lo+2Lo=5.3+1.8+1.8=8.9*1.1=9.79+1.3 GOE=11.09, difference to add: 2.15). She still wouldn't have been able to reach Yuna's inflated score even if she hadn't made those mistakes.
    Asada was planning to do 3F+3Lo, 3Lo in Lp. (That is why people keep saying she was planning 8-triple program). She just failed to even attempt to do so because of her unexpected sloppy landing in 3F, so she put 2Lo after planned solo 3Lo instead. Therefore by saying "Asada goes clean with her planned layout" it is also reasonable to assume that she goes for 3F+3Lo rather than 3Lo+2Lo. It is far from being "entirely wrong".

    As I pointed out long before and as yourself verified here, even if we don't count 3F+3Lo in her Lp, her TES would easily reach more than +76. (65.96+10+alpha upto your choice of 3-3 or 3-2. With 3-3, it would be +79.), not to mention that it can be even higher if she gets more GOE. (Here only assumed +1 GOE.) Obviously bigger than 74.73, the TES Yuna got.

    All she needs to break 148+ now is to get PCS somewhere between 69-72. (69 in the case that she goes for 3-3, 72 for 3-2). She got 68.41 iin last Worlds. Expecting PCS is hard due to lack of data, since Asada has never been even remotely clean with this difficult tech layout. But it is very likely that Asada will get higher PCS when she goes clean, at least P/E will rightfully increase. I bet she will be able to break +70 in PCS if she goes clean with the same scoring system you keep calling "corrupted".

    If you don't agree on increase of PCS, then let's simply settle down to "agree to disagree". And stop mocking people around. It's pathetic.

  10. #340
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    She still wouldn't have been able to reach Yuna's inflated score even if she hadn't made those mistakes.
    I think this analysis is incomplete. If Mao had skated cleanly her PCSs would also have gone through the roof, just like Yuna's did with a clean skate. With a clean technical performance the judges would have been able to reward Asada's musicality and grace with marks in the nines across the board. Maybe the CoP is not supposed to work this way, but I would bet anything that if Mao skated a technically superior program without error the judges would be very pleased to shower her with PCS points.

    The other thing is, with respect to Mao's jump layout "skating her intended program cleanly" means that she rotated and landed the 3F well enough to tack on the intended 3L, so that's another 5.1 points on the tech side. That is, the < on the flip cost her 8 points or so.

    Edited to add: I wrote this before I saw the post of Bara1968. I agree with Bara1968's analysis, and I also thank Bara1968 for her series of cool-headed posts a couple of pages ago on this thread.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-21-2013 at 12:43 PM.

  11. #341
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bara1968 View Post
    If you don't agree on increase of PCS, then let's simply settle down to "agree to disagree". And stop mocking people around. It's pathetic.
    I find it hilarious that so many people continue to respond, reiterating the exact same argument over and over and over. The point has been made and supported with evidence multiple times over the course of this thread.

    The numbers are right there...no point in trying to change what someone makes such a concerted effort to believe (or not to believe).

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I want Gracie Gold to be 4th because I don't want her to take anything from the top 3 who are my favorite (some are more than the others)
    Of the rest, I like Akiko the most, but I don't think she will make anything out of a 4th place finish. Gracie needs to be 4th because the top 3 will cross the bridge, and she can become #1. Akiko can be 5th.
    Ashley can be 6th.

    Korpi can be 7th. Unless Hicks is competing, then I want her to be 8th. The rest of them, I don't care for.
    The great thing is that Gracie actually CAN place 4th ... she was just a few mistakes away from beating both Ashley and Kanako at Worlds this year. If she had been sparkling clean, she might have edged 190 overall. Unfortunately, I think a medal in Sochi is out of her grasp with Yuna, Mao, and Carolina competing, unless a disaster occurs. But it's still extremely exciting to predict that Gracie will be one of the (if not THE) best in the world soon.

    If Gracie is 4th, then I'd want Ashley to be 5th, Akiko 6th, Kanako 7th, Adelina 8th, 2nd Russian lady 9th, Osmond 10th, etc. I think Hicks' chance of qualifying is slim, but hey, stranger things have happened.

  13. #343
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    If Gracie is 4th, then I'd want Ashley to be 5th, Akiko 6th, Kanako 7th, Adelina 8th, 2nd Russian lady 9th, Osmond 10th, etc. I think Hicks' chance of qualifying is slim, but hey, stranger things have happened.
    The only way I want to see Gracie 4th is if she makes visible improvements to her skating. Mainly I'm talking about her rather "plastic" presentation: the fake smile, the flourishes here and there set in time with the music that still look empty...she's just very rehearsed-looking which makes her skating come off as disingenuous to me.

    I'm hoping that as she matures she'll learn to relax into her choreography (she's so stiff and rigid-looking sometimes), feel her music and relate to it rather than use it for background noise as she goes from element to element. If she can do that (as well as hit her jumps) she'll easily be the 4th place finisher in Sochi (if not a medal challenger) and probably the favorite going into worlds and there will be zero complaints coming from my end.

    Hopefully she's working hard this summer and we'll see some of those improvements. If we don't she's still very capable of placing 4th in Sochi and 1st at worlds next year...but I sure won't be happy about it.

  14. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think this analysis is incomplete. If Mao had skated cleanly her PCSs would also have gone through the roof, just like Yuna's did with a clean skate. With a clean technical performance the judges would have been able to reward Asada's musicality and grace with marks in the nines across the board. Maybe the CoP is not supposed to work this way, but I would bet anything that if Mao skated a technically superior program without error the judges would be very pleased to shower her with PCS points.

    The other thing is, with respect to Mao's jump layout "skating her intended program cleanly" means that she rotated and landed the 3F well enough to tack on the intended 3L, so that's another 5.1 points on the tech side. That is, the < on the flip cost her 8 points or so.

    Edited to add: I wrote this before I saw the post of Bara1968. I agree with Bara1968's analysis, and I also thank Bara1968 for her series of cool-headed posts a couple of pages ago on this thread.
    which difference in PCS is not just because of only kim had clean skate, difference in career and reputation.
    Just think about it, and face to fact. Asada had 2 mess up seasons after vancouver, and she finished 6th place in World twice times. kim is olympic champion and she has never been dropped from the podium in her entire career. and she had never messed up seasons, and had not many bombing as well as Asada.

    After 07-08 ~ past season, In other words, in almost all seasons since she debuted, she couldn't have even equal rivalry with kim.

  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    It is not just because of she had clean skate, difference in career and reputation.
    Just think about it, and face to fact. Asada had 2 mess up seasons after vancouver, and she finished 6th place twice times. kim is olympic champion and she has never been dropped from the podium in her entire career.

    After 07-08 season, until at this moment, In other words, in almost all seasons since she debuted, she couldn't have even equal rivalry with kim.
    How many times has Mao been totally clean across a competition? My bet is very few, if any.

    For the last time, this is a hypothetical thread. As in, what COULD happen if she WERE to skate completely clean? It doesn't matter how unlikely it is.

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