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Thread: What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean

  1. #361
    Custom Title Minze2001's Avatar
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    Threads get so annoying when they become about bashing Mao's technical abilities. Yep, the triple axel is so easy that is why everyone does one? No. Mao is the only one.

  2. #362
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    Yes, the mollycoddling of Mao's got to stop - "letting" her do 3As! In fact, all the other senior ladies should do one also, then how would she feel! Oh, wait... Actually, since so few ladies can do a 3Lz-3T consistently, maybe we shouldn't "let" any senior ladies do that either? I mean, why should ANY lady have any unfair advantage? Maybe everyone should just stick to doubles, and we can see who does those best, and all will be fair & square...

    What about musicality? Some skaters just don't have any, poor things. Isn't that unfair on them? Let's get rid of the music also.

    In fact - skip the jumps altogether! Let everyone skate the exact same thing - oh, we could call it... figures! Yes, let's put the figure back in figure skating, and let that be ALL that the skaters do. We can leave all the vulgar jumps & music to shows and such, and let the pure essence remain... "Theatricality and deception are powerful agents to the uninitiated... but we are initiated, aren't we Bruce? Members of the League of Shadows... " Oops! Did I let myself get carried away there? Well, never mind! In this thread - who will notice!

    (Also, I wonder how many will think my post is 100% serious? Ah, sweet irony... )

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    How many times has Mao been totally clean across a competition? My bet is very few, if any.

    For the last time, this is a hypothetical thread. As in, what COULD happen if she WERE to skate completely clean? It doesn't matter how unlikely it is.
    Well in Vancouver Asada would have lost badly even had she been completely clean. However it seems a combination of things are different now, although I cant pinpoint all of them, and in that unlikely hypothetical it probably would be much closer between them this time around.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    Yes, the mollycoddling of Mao's got to stop - "letting" her do 3As! In fact, all the other senior ladies should do one also, then how would she feel! Oh, wait... Actually, since so few ladies can do a 3Lz-3T consistently, maybe we shouldn't "let" any senior ladies do that either? I mean, why should ANY lady have any unfair advantage? Maybe everyone should just stick to doubles, and we can see who does those best, and all will be fair & square...

    What about musicality? Some skaters just don't have any, poor things. Isn't that unfair on them? Let's get rid of the music also.

    In fact - skip the jumps altogether! Let everyone skate the exact same thing - oh, we could call it... figures! Yes, let's put the figure back in figure skating, and let that be ALL that the skaters do. We can leave all the vulgar jumps & music to shows and such, and let the pure essence remain... "Theatricality and deception are powerful agents to the uninitiated... but we are initiated, aren't we Bruce? Members of the League of Shadows... " Oops! Did I let myself get carried away there? Well, never mind! In this thread - who will notice!

    (Also, I wonder how many will think my post is 100% serious? Ah, sweet irony... )
    Don't worry, LRK; I appreciated the wit. Figures indeed. Let's hear it for the eleven-time Olympic champion, Trixi Schuba!

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    Again, you have ignored my post entirely, and gave another ridiculous excuse.
    Here I agree with you. The link to Yuna's score at Worlds-2013 indeed may count as another ridiculous excuse for "queeny" gold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think this analysis is incomplete.
    Quote Originally Posted by bara1968 View Post
    Asada was planning to do 3F+3Lo, 3Lo in Lp.
    ...
    I bet she will be able to break +70 in PCS if she goes clean
    ...
    And stop mocking people around. It's pathetic.
    No, sweetheart. What is pathetic and extremele lame is your desperate attemp to 'tailor up' the real Yuna's skating at Worlds to the "planned" or "hypothetical" skating of Asada, but not to the real layout that she did. That's cheat and lie that you keep parading. Compare the hypothetical Mao with the hypothetical Yuna. Why do you all keep refusing doing that and always go back to Yuna's skate at Worlds-2013? Because in this case, if you finally play fair and compare the hypotheticl Mao with the hypothetical Yuna, you will have to increase Yuna's score as well. Then all your math will become void the same instant. Or are you saying that what Yuna showed us at Worlds with her juniorish combos is the maximum of her abilities? Ha! What a royalty. Incomplete analysis? Fine. Here I am. Yuna was 4th in BV at Worlds, i.e. off the podium, behind Mao and two yesterday-junior Gold and Li. She was pulled on the podium by GOE and PCS, the scenario that we have seen a lot with PChan. Moreover, she would be 4th in BV, which is the most objective factor in scoring, at Russian Junior Nationals as well. Lol. The Olympic champion can't challenge the stuff that three junior girls at RN had power and skills to perform. Her combo of three doubles was similar to the one (2T instead of 2Lo) that Chernyshova did, who was 8th (!) RJN, but unlike Yuna she did 3Lo-2T, which has a higher BV than Yuna's 3S-2T. And, in the sight of this juniorish layout of Yuna, your conditions for Mao to beat her is to go with the heck layout with 3A, 3F-3Lo, three jump combo with first triple, etc. How fair. And how rich of you to give Mao the chance to break 70 on PCS, while the hypothetical Yuna will have 75? 80?, since if the real one had 74 . It's exactly what happened with Chan more than once- the guys had to perform 3 quads, two 3A and still they couldn't beat the Canadian who had much easier layout, not mentioning that half of it he spent with his butt on the ice. Same with Yuna, just on a smaller scale. Way easier layout with poor BV got pulled on the top of the podium by GOE and PCS. Been there, seen that.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Here I agree with you. The link to Yuna's score at Worlds-2013 indeed may count as another ridiculous excuse for "queeny" gold.

    No, sweetheart. What is pathetic and extremele lame is your desperate attemp to 'tailor up' the real Yuna's skating at Worlds to the "planned" or "hypothetical" skating of Asada, but not to the real layout that she did. That's cheat and lie that you keep parading. Compare the hypothetical Mao with the hypothetical Yuna. Why do you all keep refusing doing that and always go back to Yuna's skate at Worlds-2013? Because in this case, if you finally play fair and compare the hypotheticl Mao with the hypothetical Yuna, you will have to increase Yuna's score as well. Then all your math will become void the same instant. Or are you saying that what Yuna showed us at Worlds with her juniorish combos is the maximum of her abilities? Ha! What a royalty. Incomplete analysis? Fine. Here I am. Yuna was 4th in BV at Worlds, i.e. off the podium, behind Mao and two yesterday-junior Gold and Li. She was pulled on the podium by GOE and PCS, the scenario that we have seen a lot with PChan. Moreover, she would be 4th in BV, which is the most objective factor in scoring, at Russian Junior Nationals as well. Lol. The Olympic champion can't challenge the stuff that three junior girls at RN had power and skills to perform. Her combo of three doubles was similar to the one (2T instead of 2Lo) that Chernyshova did, who was 8th (!) RJN, but unlike Yuna she did 3Lo-2T, which has a higher BV than Yuna's 3S-2T. And, in the sight of this juniorish layout of Yuna, your conditions for Mao to beat her is to go with the heck layout with 3A, 3F-3Lo, three jump combo with first triple, etc. How fair. And how rich of you to give Mao the chance to break 70 on PCS, while the hypothetical Yuna will have 75? 80?, since if the real one had 74 . It's exactly what happened with Chan more than once- the guys had to perform 3 quads, two 3A and still they couldn't beat the Canadian who had much easier layout, not mentioning that half of it he spent with his butt on the ice. Same with Yuna, just on a smaller scale. Way easier layout with poor BV got pulled on the top of the podium by GOE and PCS. Been there, seen that.
    But unlike Russian ladies, Yuna actually has some artistry, and has good-quality jumps. You're saying she should be scored similar to some Russian girls who has tiny jumps and basically are close to looking like robots when they're skating. Oh, and many of them has either lip/flutz, which Yuna doesn't.

    So you're now saying that Yuna deserved to be off podium, when Yuna and Mao landed same number of triples at Worlds? If you think judging was unfair at Worlds, why not write a letter to ISU saying Yuna basically stole Caro/Mao's gold and deserved to be off-podium?

    Also, if you look at Mao's protocols from this season, she never landed a clean 3F+3Lo. Who won NHK with 5 triples?

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheerio2 View Post
    There were practical reasons for such changes that have nothing to do with Yuna or anyone else.
    I beg to differ. With any rule changes it is should always be controversial. There are those who lose out, and those who gain considerable advantages. While it can always be justified why such for the rule change occur in the first place, but it is the totallity of these effects, and the motivation behind of these rule changes should be under greater scrutiny. Timing is everything, the effect on the major stake holders of the sport holds the clue.

    Put it this way, rules changes implies there are something wrong with the old rules in the first place, and tomorow's on going changing rules can mean there's something wrong with today's rules. However in reality, it doesn't make better skating, it can however manipulate the favourable outcome of the potential winners.

    Ask yourself, if there's no Mao or Yuna in the ladies do you really think the culmination of these particular sets of rule changes would have occurred at that particular time regardless? Similarly, if Mao was born in Korea, and Yuna is born in Japan, would the same rules changes occur in that exact sequence and timeline? That is perhaps a fun hypothetical question worth asking.

    That is what I love about Yuna's recent triumph, where every critic has practically counted her out, yet she came back with unfathomable self believe and do what all champions should able do, prove their critics wrong. Forget the Superstar, the uber nickname 'Queen'. She is a simple girl who work hard and deserve her success. She wins big despite the system and not because of it.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    I beg to differ. With any rule changes it is should always be controversial. There are those who lose out, and those who gain considerable advantages. While it can always be justified why such for the rule change occur in the first place, but it is the totallity of these effects, and the motivation behind of these rule changes should be under greater scrutiny. Timing is everything, the effect on the major stake holders of the sport holds the clue.

    Put it this way, rules changes implies there are something wrong with the old rules in the first place, and tomorow's on going changing rules can mean there's something wrong with today's rules. However in reality, it doesn't make better skating, it can however manipulate the favourable outcome of the potential winners.

    Ask yourself, if there's no Mao or Yuna in the ladies do you really think the culmination of these particular sets of rule changes would have occurred at that particular time regardless? Similarly, if Mao was born in Korea, and Yuna is born in Japan, would the same rules changes occur in that exact sequence and timeline? That is perhaps a fun hypothetical question worth asking.

    That is what I love about Yuna's recent triumph, where every critic has practically counted her out, yet she came back with unfathomable self believe and do what all champions should able do, prove their critics wrong. Forget the Superstar, the uber nickname 'Queen'. She is a simple girl who work hard and deserve her success. She wins big despite the system and not because of it.


    Are you suggesting that other skaters dont work as hard and deserve less sucess? That is an unfair assessment. Yuna is not a poor little girl she is the top skater of the world and has acess to the best, as does mao and caro. Every skater that shows up the a competition works hard and are deseving. Some are better than other, but all work hard.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Here I agree with you. The link to Yuna's score at Worlds-2013 indeed may count as another ridiculous excuse for "queeny" gold.
    Explain Mao's score of 134.37 with that 5 clean triple program. Who's the overscored one?

    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    No, sweetheart. What is pathetic and extremele lame is your desperate attemp to 'tailor up' the real Yuna's skating at Worlds to the "planned" or "hypothetical" skating of Asada, but not to the real layout that she did. That's cheat and lie that you keep parading. Compare the hypothetical Mao with the hypothetical Yuna.
    the post #142 IS what you were asking. I added Yuna's and Caro's onto Mao's. No need to have both Yuna and Mao have hypothetical scores when you can just add top points that Yuna and Caro earned right into Mao's. (of course to the same elements). It's pathetic that you're not getting this.

    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Why do you all keep refusing doing that and always go back to Yuna's skate at Worlds-2013? Because in this case, if you finally play fair and compare the hypotheticl Mao with the hypothetical Yuna, you will have to increase Yuna's score as well. Then all your math will become void the same instant.
    again, look at the hypothetical scores I made or even those that other posters made. You can't insult other people and their maths when you can't even provide your own. So why not give your own explanation in math? Or is it that you can't do it because you know you're wrong? I think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Or are you saying that what Yuna showed us at Worlds with her juniorish combos is the maximum of her abilities? Ha! What a royalty.
    Yuna's combos are juniorish? In what extent her combos are juniorish? Pretty sure there are only few skaters that execute 3Lz+3T. Can Mao even land a correct Lutz? Can Mao land a consistent 3S? So according to your logic, every ladies are juniorish. How dumb you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Incomplete analysis? Fine. Here I am. Yuna was 4th in BV at Worlds, i.e. off the podium, behind Mao and two yesterday-junior Gold and Li. She was pulled on the podium by GOE and PCS, the scenario that we have seen a lot with PChan. Moreover, she would be 4th in BV, which is the most objective factor in scoring, at Russian Junior Nationals as well. Lol. The Olympic champion can't challenge the stuff that three junior girls at RN had power and skills to perform. Her combo of three doubles was similar to the one (2T instead of 2Lo) that Chernyshova did, who was 8th (!) RJN, but unlike Yuna she did 3Lo-2T, which has a higher BV than Yuna's 3S-2T. And, in the sight of this juniorish layout of Yuna, your conditions for Mao to beat her is to go with the heck layout with 3A, 3F-3Lo, three jump combo with first triple, etc. How fair.
    Again, you're not factoring in the fact that Mao had a terrible skate (who still made it to PB). Yuna skated clean and deserved her points. PCHan on the other hand, is debatable. The only thing Yuna lacks is 3Lo and you're saying that that's juniorsh. The Olymic Silver Medalist can't even land a darn good clean correct edge lutz. What else? Her UR problem with her flip and her inconsistent 3S. Who's juniorsh now? Just let you know, 3Lo<3LZ so I don't get your logic at all. Conditions for Mao to beat Yuna would be skating to a clean program. Not just clean though, with beautifully executed jumps as well as good edges and choreography, a program that looks effortless. WHICH Mao failed to do so

    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    And how rich of you to give Mao the chance to break 70 on PCS, while the hypothetical Yuna will have 75? 80?, since if the real one had 74 . It's exactly what happened with Chan more than once- the guys had to perform 3 quads, two 3A and still they couldn't beat the Canadian who had much easier layout, not mentioning that half of it he spent with his butt on the ice. Same with Yuna, just on a smaller scale. Way easier layout with poor BV got pulled on the top of the podium by GOE and PCS. Been there, seen that.
    What explanation will you make for a terrible skate that Mao had but receving 68 in PCS? Pretty sure THAT is overscored. And again, you can't blame Yuna for skating a clean program and receiving those GOE and PCS. Mao lost because she didn't skate a clean program. You're complaining as if Yuna and Mao both skated to a clean program. NO Mao had a TERRIBLE skate at Worlds so her scores were lower than Yuna's. Are you that dumb to not realize that?

    Complain more

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minze2001 View Post
    Are you suggesting that other skaters dont work as hard and deserve less sucess? That is an unfair assessment. Yuna is not a poor little girl she is the top skater of the world and has acess to the best, as does mao and caro. Every skater that shows up the a competition works hard and are deseving. Some are better than other, but all work hard.
    Uh... lets not go there shall we. It is a juvenile tactic to accuse me of something I have not said nor intend, as well condemn this 'figurative imagination' as if you are some how morally superior to this conclusion. Read it again, digest it properly. You are reading way too much into a simple statement, and clearly shows enough insecurity to reach the conclusion you come up with.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Uh... lets not go there shall we. It is a juvenile tactic to accuse me of something I have not said nor intend, as well condemn this 'figurative imagination' as if you are some how morally superior to this conclusion. Read it again, digest it properly. You are reading way too much into a simple statement, and clearly shows enough insecurity to reach the conclusion you come up with.
    Juvinile is to say rules were changed to benefit one skater. Juvinile is to pretend one skater works harder than the other

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minze2001 View Post
    Juvinile is to say rules were changed to benefit one skater. Juvinile is to pretend one skater works harder than the other
    Don't mix up the issue. First is half truth. It benefit more than one skater actually.
    Second, you come up with that entirely on your own mate lol. I have not pretend anything, nor have said anything about who works harder.

  13. #373
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    Judges get excited when a skater goes clean and the marks can be a bit higher than is maybe reasonable - but that's okay because said skater skated PERFECTLY so the judges have a reason to get excited and hand out big marks. That is why Yuna's FS scores at the Olympics and Worlds this year were so high. If Mao skates clean, then, no, she isn't likely to overtake Yuna, but I have a feeling that her score would be higher than the one people calculate just by adding up all the elements as if she skated cleanly because if Mao was perfect, she'd probably get some love from the judges for skating perfectly too and the gap between her and Yuna wouldn't be all that big, and this gap would be deserved because Yuna is a much stronger jumper than Mao and also has a lot more speed and this differential is larger than the one created by Mao having much stronger spins and spirals, and sometimes footwork, than Yuna because jumps are worth a whole lot more under IJS and the GOE is factored differently allowing skaters to gain more points for jumps as opposed to spins and spirals. We saw Zijun Li get 127 points at Worlds and then the rest of the season with one mistake she is under 120...the big jump up in scores was because she was perfect at Worlds, the same thing goes for Gracie Gold at Nationals.

    I really have no issues with Yuna's scores when she is foot perfect, and if people are complaining about getting "held-up" for bad performances, Mao and Carolina are way more representative of that. Yuna rarely skates badly and during the few instances she did, she either did not win the event or did not get hugely inflated scores:

    SC 06 - wins SP, 4th in FS, 3rd overall
    Worlds 07 - wins SP, 4th in FS, 3rd overall
    Worlds 08 - 6th in SP, wins FS, 3rd overall
    GPF 08 - wins SP, 2nd in FS, 2nd overall
    SA 09 - wins SP and overall, but was 2nd in FS with a score of only 112
    Worlds 10 - 7th in SP, wins FS, 2nd overall
    Worlds 11 - 1st in SP, 2nd in FS, 2nd overall

    Sure Yuna has won a lot but she is no Patrick Chan, when she doesn't skate close to her best she usually doesn't win. And really, in those events I mentioned, she didn't really bomb for the most part, someone else just skated better. Mao, Carolina, and especially someone like Patrick Chan have won events skating far worse in one of their programs than Yuna did in most of the ones I just mentioned.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    What is pathetic and extremele lame is your desperate attemp to 'tailor up' the real Yuna's skating at Worlds to the "planned" or "hypothetical" skating of Asada, but not to the real layout that she did.
    The reason that I believe your analysis of Mao's program is incomplete is that it did not take into account the increase in PCSs that automatically follows a clean and commanding performance. Mao floats like a butterfly (PCS); all she has to do is sting like a bee (TES) to reap the reward.

    In the LP just as it was skated, and without needing to upgrade anything, Mao made four major errors. If she had skated cleanly, with +1 GOE on each of the four imperfect jumps, she would have gained the following increase in points on the TES side.

    3A +3.4
    3F +3.6
    2Lz +1.7
    3F+2Lo+2Lo +1.85

    This is a total of 10.85 points that Mao left on the table on her four faulty jumps.

    She lost the TES portion of the LP by only 8.77 points. A clean Mao would have won over Yuna's actual performance by 2.09 points.

    On the PCS side, with a perfectly clean, exquisitely gorgeous skate, IMHO Mao is capable of something like

    SS 9.25 (speed is the only advantage Kim and Kostner have over Mao in this category)
    Tr 9.25
    P&E 9.50
    INT 9.50
    CH 9.50

    This adds up to a total PCS of 75.2. Kim's was 73.61.

    With a stronger performance Mao could have won in both TES and PCS in the LP. (If you like I can do the short program, too, and try to figure how much Mao left on the table by making major errors on two of her three jumping passes.)

    It is possible that, PCS-wise, I am more enamored of a perfect Mao program than the judges are. To me, the floating like a butterfly thing is front and center.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-22-2013 at 03:23 PM.

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    To me, except Yu-Na Kim, I don't think necessary that Kostner and Asada are sure to get a medal.

    Don't forget that all Olympic experience from Kostner was a failure. and Asada need to be consistent with her jump, she is impredictable, she could be amazing or have a meeldown. I prefer to not predict about Kostner and Asada because their performance are unpredictable.

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