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Thread: Are the Shibs underrated?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    If I remember correctly:
    Two coach/choreographers who each had worked with Virtue/Moir in the past independently suggested that they skate their SD to "The Waltz Goes On," by Sir Anthony Hopkins. They were Marijane Stong of Canada and Elena Tchaikovskaya (sp?) of Russia.
    The suggestions of the Hopkins music specifically were for Virtue/Moir ... not for just any Team Canton couple.

    V/M did score one SD win over Davis/White this past season (out of only three head-to-head meetings).
    My hunch is that V/M do not regret their SD music.
    I recall it slightly differently. Marijane Strong sent the music to Marina/V&M thinking it was perfect for them. Marina didn't feel it. Then Elena Tchaikovskaia suggested the music to Marina for V&M. Because it was independently suggested for V&M by two different people Marina took a second look at it. It was not specifically suggested for the SD. The SD was going to be Carmen but when they sent the music to the ISU to get verified were told it was not suitable for the SD. So their intended SD became their FD. I understand that both Stong and Tchaikovskaia just heard the music and thought it was made for V&M to skate to which is why they brought it to Marina's attention. So the original SD ideas were Giselle for D&W and Carmen for V&M.

    On theme with the thread. I don't think the Shibs are underrated. I think they had great success in a year where they probably had their best programs that worked for their style and expression while capitalizing on the mistakes of other teams. I think they are a top ten team on a good day but they lack the style, expression and personality of teams above them. On a good day P&B, W&P, I&K (to name a few) are superior. I think they are technically better skaters than the Italian team C&L but they are eclipsed by them in style, expression and personality. I personally don't know if they have it in them to convincingly present anything other than what they did in Moscow. That may well have been the highlight of their career.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    You are right. I/K's programs weren't impressive, and their Ghost FD was a joke. Just how and why the Shibs have been marginalized politically - what did they do so badly that has led them to be written off so abruptly? There are far too many teams fighting for the bronze - I/K, P/B, B/S, C/L, W/P, all very good and quite innovative. Any excuse for the Shibs to be ranked lower will be used. Every time a team wins a bronze, i.e. P/B and the Shibs, they are rotated off the podium for the others to win. In the 90s there was a similar effect in Pairs' skating - every time a pair won the Worlds, they weren't given a second chance to win it again; other pairs rotated as the World Champions. In this case, if B/S don't step or do something exponentially extraordinary, they will be relegated for someone else to replace them for the bronze, just like the Shibs and P/B.
    Interesting theory, BlackPack!! If you are right, my instinct is it may be Capellini/Lanotte's turn for bronze next year. (That is, if they continue to improve and get good programs.)

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAS View Post
    I recall it slightly differently. Marijane Strong sent the music to Marina/V&M thinking it was perfect for them. Marina didn't feel it. Then Elena Tchaikovskaia suggested the music to Marina for V&M. Because it was independently suggested for V&M by two different people Marina took a second look at it. It was not specifically suggested for the SD. The SD was going to be Carmen but when they sent the music to the ISU to get verified were told it was not suitable for the SD. So their intended SD became their FD. I understand that both Stong and Tchaikovskaia just heard the music and thought it was made for V&M to skate to which is why they brought it to Marina's attention. So the original SD ideas were Giselle for D&W and Carmen for V&M.
    Thanks, CAS. You and I already were on the same page that the Hopkins waltz was suggested specifically for Virtue/Moir and always was intended only for them, which was the essential point of my original post above.
    I was making note that it was not a matter of Zoueva making a choice between V/M and Davis/White as to which couple she would match with the Hopkins piece (and which she would match with Giselle). Tonto's earlier comment re the Team Canton SDs more or less implied that scenario -- and I was responding that it was a false premise.

    You are absolutely correct that I got too carried away when I went so far as to indicate that the Hopkins music was pigeonholed only as an SD idea from the very beginning.
    Sorry about that. Now that you mention it, I do recall the evolution of Carmen first as the SD desired by V/M.

    In any case, V/M's waltzing always makes me smile, and the icing on the cake this past season is that their Hopkins SD introduced many (including me) to a wonderful piece of music. It was a good contrast to the classic Carmen music of their FD for that reason (among others).

    p.s. Maybe your spell-check feature "outsmarted" you ... her last name is Stong without an R.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAS View Post
    I recall it slightly differently. Marijane Strong sent the music to Marina/V&M thinking it was perfect for them. Marina didn't feel it. Then Elena Tchaikovskaia suggested the music to Marina for V&M. Because it was independently suggested for V&M by two different people Marina took a second look at it. It was not specifically suggested for the SD. The SD was going to be Carmen but when they sent the music to the ISU to get verified were told it was not suitable for the SD. So their intended SD became their FD. I understand that both Stong and Tchaikovskaia just heard the music and thought it was made for V&M to skate to which is why they brought it to Marina's attention. So the original SD ideas were Giselle for D&W and Carmen for V&M.

    On theme with the thread. I don't think the Shibs are underrated. I think they had great success in a year where they probably had their best programs that worked for their style and expression while capitalizing on the mistakes of other teams. I think they are a top ten team on a good day but they lack the style, expression and personality of teams above them. On a good day P&B, W&P, I&K (to name a few) are superior. I think they are technically better skaters than the Italian team C&L but they are eclipsed by them in style, expression and personality. I personally don't know if they have it in them to convincingly present anything other than what they did in Moscow. That may well have been the highlight of their career.
    It's worth noting they're been a Top 10 team even a bad day. As I've noted earlier in this thread, I don't think we're seeing the best what they can do for a variety of reasons, including injury and awkward growth spurt. I think the Shibs team that have shown up to Worlds in the last two years has been 70 to 80 percent, with 70 in 2012 and maybe 80 to 85 percent in 2013.

    I would think how difficult it is to put much focus on style and expression when you're simply trying to figure out how to regain your center of gravity after your sister grows a few inches and gains a few pounds. I think that's a big reason they haven't been super innovative in the lifts department.

    I think they are underrated technically. Getting levels is tied to hitting bullets and key points and not always a reflection of technical ability. I think they have a great foundation, which is why they've been able to stay in the top 10 despite their struggles. They still have some of the best twizzles. They have clean, smooth edges and good timing to the music -- and I'm strictly talking about their steps to the back beat. And they have great extension and decent lines.

    Yes programs that highlight their strengths seems to be their challenge as of late, but I don't think it's impossible to resolve. I think it's a matter of finding what works. That's easier for some pairs than others.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    If my memory is correct, V/M win in the SD came at an event where D/W made visible errors, and, even then, the margin of victory was quite thin.
    [I love the Shibutanis, so pls excuse one more off-topic response to my friend Tonto ]

    If you're suggesting that Davis/White's lack of perfection somehow diminished Virtue/Moir's SD win, then I will add that V/M made a visible twizzle error in their SD at London Worlds. So D/W's SD win there also would be diminished on some level?
    That kind of logic seems like a slippery slope ...

  6. #51
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    I wonder if the Shibs managed to get the bronze medal at the 2011 Worlds since competitors were not as trained as they could be, due to Worlds being postponed. I hadn't though of that before, but it actually JUST occured to me. After all, P&B did have a fall.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I wonder if the Shibs managed to get the bronze medal at the 2011 Worlds since competitors were not as trained as they could be, due to Worlds being postponed. I hadn't though of that before, but it actually JUST occured to me. After all, P&B did have a fall.
    Blue, this quote explains a lot of what has happened:

    Quote Originally Posted by 96skiluvr View Post
    We all know what happened with the Shibs, and stop pretending otherwise.
    They only won the 2011 World bronze because all the other top teams, who are better than them, screwed up. W/P, P/B, I/K, B/S, etc are much better than the Shibs, and when they screwed up at Worlds, and everyone else did well, they placed where they should have been placed. They never were the absolute 3rd best team in the World; they really are only the 8th or 9th best team, which is where they have been for the last two years. Dance is extremely political - stop trying to pretend that it's not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 96skiluvr View Post
    We all know what happened with the Shibs, and stop pretending otherwise.
    They only won the 2011 World bronze because all the other top teams, who are better than them, screwed up. W/P, P/B, I/K, B/S, etc are much better than the Shibs, and when they screwed up at Worlds, and everyone else did well, they placed where they should have been placed. They never were the absolute 3rd best team in the World; they really are only the 8th or 9th best team, which is where they have been for the last two years. Dance is extremely political - stop trying to pretend that it's not.
    How exactly are I/K so much better then the Shibs? I/K have so far been all hype since they turned Senior and the Shibs have beat them more often then not head to head the last three years. As for Worlds 2011 the Shibs were so much better then I/K that whole season that the Shibs finishing ahead of them at Worlds was almost expected despite being in Moscow. And to think some people thought I/K would medal just because Worlds were in Russia.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    How exactly are I/K so much better then the Shibs? I/K have so far been all hype since they turned Senior and the Shibs have beat them more often then not head to head the last three years. As for Worlds 2011 the Shibs were so much better then I/K that whole season that the Shibs finishing ahead of them at Worlds was almost expected despite being in Moscow. And to think some people thought I/K would medal just because Worlds were in Russia.
    To be fair, they do seem to be faster and exude a lot of charisma that seems to get them better pcs. But they are just as prone to not get levels and can be a hot mess when they don't do well.

    For the record, the Shibs lead 4-3 in face-to-face match ups with them beating I/K at Worlds.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    [I love the Shibutanis, so pls excuse one more off-topic response to my friend Tonto ]

    If you're suggesting that Davis/White's lack of perfection somehow diminished Virtue/Moir's SD win, then I will add that V/M made a visible twizzle error in their SD at London Worlds. So D/W's SD win there also would be diminished on some level?
    That kind of logic seems like a slippery slope ...
    I don't think SD mistakes diminishes the final result in either case, although it certainly explains the margin of victory at Worlds. I did think it was interesting that even with a visible bobble during the short dance, Giselle eeked out a higher PCS.

    I love the Shibs and hope they have fantastic programs this season. The fact that all three US dance teams finished in the top three is so fantastic if you think back ten years or so in ice dance.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I wonder if the Shibs managed to get the bronze medal at the 2011 Worlds since competitors were not as trained as they could be, due to Worlds being postponed. I hadn't though of that before, but it actually JUST occured to me. After all, P&B did have a fall.
    Sorry, I don't understand this theory.
    I agree that the postponement of 2011 Worlds made peaking at the right time more of a challenge for all skaters. But the Shibutanis were in the same boat as their competitors. Why would the postponement have given the Shibs an advantage? Am I missing something?

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    I/k were 16th in Tes out of 20 in 2013 worlds. They are done and shibutanis are much stronger than I/k and have a future.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand this theory.
    I agree that the postponement of 2011 Worlds made peaking at the right time more of a challenge for all skaters. But the Shibutanis were in the same boat as their competitors. Why would the postponement have given the Shibs an advantage? Am I missing something?
    I'm just saying they might have continued training with more diligence than their peers. I'm not saying that is necessarily true, but it COULD be, as some teams like P/B didn't skate as well as usual.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I'm just saying they might have continued training with more diligence than their peers. I'm not saying that is necessarily true, but it COULD be, as some teams like P/B didn't skate as well as usual.
    My two cents regarding Pechalat/Bourzat is that they were highly motivated to train very diligently leading up to Moscow Worlds -- because they knew that their first world medal would be within reach.
    I seem to recall that their costly, but totally unexpected, fall during the FD seemed to be an extremely unlucky fluke. I don't remember it in detail, but wasn't the consensus at the time that it was the kind of thing that probably never once had happened when they had performed the same move hundred of times in training?
    As for other couples aside from P/B, my general opinion is that exhaustion at the end of the prolonged season was a more likely factor than lack of diligence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    My two cents regarding Pechalat/Bourzat is that they were highly motivated to train very diligently leading up to Moscow Worlds -- because they knew that their first world medal would be within reach.
    I seem to recall that their costly, but totally unexpected, fall during the FD seemed to be an extremely unlucky fluke. I don't remember it in detail, but wasn't the consensus at the time that it was the kind of thing that probably never once had happened when they had performed the same move hundred of times in training?
    As for other couples aside from P/B, my general opinion is that exhaustion at the end of the prolonged season was a more likely factor than lack of diligence.
    It was definitely bad luck. They caught an edge. It wasn't because of laziness. Like you said, they were locked for the Bronze.

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