Are the Shibs underrated? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Are the Shibs underrated?

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I don't believe that many people ever believed I/k surpassed b/s. Anyway I'd they did because of 2012 worlds it had to have erased because of the gp of 2012 and b/s total complete lock on Russian nationals. They are totally unbeatable at Russian nationals! B/s have never lost a SD or fd and almost all the elites of Russian figure skating hate I/k. Zhulin and tarasova actively campaign against them. They are such losers in the Russian skating world that kustarova is actually a main consultant to them now. It's more likely that I/k won't be in Sochi than he shibutanis. The shibutanis fan of course get their levels back up. That's their main problem now - levels.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
The Shibs have made a big mistake not going to Igor. Look at what he has done with C/B. He could get those levels up again for them in no time.

You stole my thoughts exactly, Jammers. The Shibs weren't really ready to *just* stick with Marina.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Assuming that it had nothing to do with the Shibs, I would have preferred they had gone with Igor, how about I say that...either that, or that Marina find a VERY strong technical coach to work with them.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I've learned so much about them. I adored their FD the year they won bronze. It was really perfection to my poor eyes.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Assuming that it had nothing to do with the Shibs, I would have preferred they had gone with Igor, how about I say that...either that, or that Marina find a VERY strong technical coach to work with them.

Marina doesn't seem to know what to do with the Shibs. In fact, I don't even think she cares that much about them. It is obvious V&M are her favorites who sublimate her need for another G&G. Even if she is a great multitasker, I find it hard to believe that she is giving as much heart and soul to the Shibs as she is giving to V&M and D&W (although I still that if V&M and D&W were drowning, Marina would save V&M first).

Actually, there are very few top ice dancing coaches who are not already managing several teams. I wonder where else the Shibs can go. They definitely need to go to someone who will treat them as a priority. Linichuk? I think people are weary of going to them after the lackluster results of DomShabs and B&A in 2010.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Jan 28, 2013
Country
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I don't know. Marina did give Giselle to D/W for the short dance, and the other piece to V/M.

Of course, the skaters themselves have something to say about how a program is received... but D/W definitely had the better vehicle.

I haven't heard any leaks about the programs for these teams in the Olympic season, and I'm very curious.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Marina did give Giselle to D/W for the short dance, and the other piece to V/M.

If I remember correctly:
Two coach/choreographers who each had worked with Virtue/Moir in the past independently suggested that they skate their SD to "The Waltz Goes On," by Sir Anthony Hopkins. They were Marijane Stong of Canada and Elena Tchaikovskaya (sp?) of Russia.
The suggestions of the Hopkins music specifically were for Virtue/Moir ... not for just any Team Canton couple.

V/M did score one SD win over Davis/White this past season (out of only three head-to-head meetings).
My hunch is that V/M do not regret their SD music.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Jan 28, 2013
Country
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If I remember correctly:
Two coach/choreographers who each had worked with Virtue/Moir in the past independently suggested that they skate their SD to "The Waltz Goes On," by Sir Anthony Hopkins. They were Marijane Stong of Canada and Elena Tchaikovskaya (sp?) of Russia.
The suggestions of the Hopkins music specifically were for Virtue/Moir ... not for just any Team Canton couple.

V/M did score one SD win over Davis/White this past season (out of only three head-to-head meetings).
My hunch is that V/M do not regret their SD music.

That's very interesting; I didn't know about the specific recommendations... I still think it was an overall lesser choice than Giselle was for D/W.

If my memory is correct, V/M win in the SD came at an event where D/W made visible errors, and, even then, the margin of victory was quite thin.

This conversation brings an interesting point:

Who decides on the music for any program? I'd think the skaters themselves have the final say, but I suspect it's a guided decision. Is it coach? Choreographer? Input from federations?

Edit: Please disregard the question on this post. It's off-topic to the discussion of the Shibs. I started a new thread to ask the question, so please go there to comment on this... I am sincerely interested in the responses.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
The Shibs are not even certain to quality for THIS Olympics, so how can one be sure they have "another" Olympics to go, when they arent even certain to make this one. Yes they are young, but the comparisions to others their age doesnt hold much water at this point. These others werent World bronze medalists and then down to 9th in the World and 3rd in the U.S in a couple short years. They arent going to suddenly start flying up the ranks again all of the sudden, not likely anyway. Plus there are many teams roughly their age who are already now over them, who used to be behind them.

Well - you could say the same thing about anybody else skating right now. No one is CERTAIN to qualify for the Olympics. Speculation runs rampant with Plushenko, Chan, Wagner, Aaron, Dai, etc. etc. It's all a semi-educated guess. I think the Shibs have just as much a chance of making the Olympics as anybody else that's considered a premier skater or team. It all depends on how they skate on any given day. I wouldn't count them out and I think that's what alot of us are saying in this thread. They're young, they work hard, they've overcome alot. And there really isn't anything to keep them from "flying up the ranks" again. How many times do we all have to say "they're young?" I actually prefer them to Chock and Bates....for example.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Marina doesn't seem to know what to do with the Shibs. In fact, I don't even think she cares that much about them. It is obvious V&M are her favorites who sublimate her need for another G&G. Even if she is a great multitasker, I find it hard to believe that she is giving as much heart and soul to the Shibs as she is giving to V&M and D&W (although I still that if V&M and D&W were drowning, Marina would save V&M first).

Actually, there are very few top ice dancing coaches who are not already managing several teams. I wonder where else the Shibs can go. They definitely need to go to someone who will treat them as a priority. Linichuk? I think people are weary of going to them after the lackluster results of DomShabs and B&A in 2010.

I think the Shibs need to learn to be more assertive about what they want, and I think they're not at that point yet. I'm hoping that they learn from D&W and learn to be more frank with Marina about their program choices.

I think this would be the case regardless of who is coaching them.

But I think it's also a matter that they're still trying figure out their style as well. And that takes time. Some skaters figure out the style thing but aren't necessarily the most technically proficient. I think the Shibs are the opposite -- they have a great technical foundation - quiet blades, good timing, clean edges -- but they haven't always had the programs to show them off.

I think their bronze-winning FD was actually a great fit for them. So the question is what other kinds of style of music would work for them?
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I think their bronze-winning FD was actually a great fit for them. So the question is what other kinds of style of music would work for them?

As already mentioned, they are going through an awkward growth spurt period. Some skaters are affected by it, others not so much. V&M continued to be successful throughout their growth spurt into adulthood. It looks like the biomechanics have really affected the Shibs' signature crispness and lightness. Last season's FD was a scattered hodge-podge of a program coupled with the decline of their technical sharpness. Their movements seemed cumbersome. The music was so disjointed as was the choreography - usually, if there is an assigned theme, a story unfolds, but their FD just had no story-telling. It was very business-like.

The qualities that are holding the Shibs are their youthful and wholesome image. They are not sexy. They appear to be innocent. Much of ice dance is predicated upon a couple's sizzling chemistry, charisma, and sex appeal, something the Shibs lack and may lack even when they're fully adults. They also appear gentle. Others have mentioned the Kerrs and the Duchesnays as brother and sister teams, who didn't focus on romance (for obvious reasons) but had passion, grit, and drama.

I would imagine programs that focus on child-like wonder and beauty would bring out the Shibs' personalities. Maybe a program skated to the theme of Grave of the Fireflies (Japanese anime about a brother and sister struggling to survive in post-WW II Japan). Something that would contrast them from the other couples - their innocence and playfulness.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
As already mentioned, they are going through an awkward growth spurt period. Some skaters are affected by it, others not so much. V&M continued to be successful throughout their growth spurt into adulthood. It looks like the biomechanics have really affected the Shibs' signature crispness and lightness. Last season's FD was a scattered hodge-podge of a program coupled with the decline of their technical sharpness. Their movements seemed cumbersome. The music was so disjointed as was the choreography - usually, if there is an assigned theme, a story unfolds, but their FD just had no story-telling. It was very business-like.

The qualities that are holding the Shibs are their youthful and wholesome image. They are not sexy. They appear to be innocent. Much of ice dance is predicated upon a couple's sizzling chemistry, charisma, and sex appeal, something the Shibs lack and may lack even when they're fully adults. They also appear gentle. Others have mentioned the Kerrs and the Duchesnays as brother and sister teams, who didn't focus on romance (for obvious reasons) but had passion, grit, and drama.

I would imagine programs that focus on child-like wonder and beauty would bring out the Shibs' personalities. Maybe a program skated to the theme of Grave of the Fireflies (Japanese anime about a brother and sister struggling to survive in post-WW II Japan). Something that would contrast them from the other couples - their innocence and playfulness.

The thing that stands out to me, outside their ice, is their dry and witty sense of humor. They make those really funny videos on YouTube and they write funny and witty blog posts on IceNetwork. I don't understand why that doesn't quite come out in their programs.

FWIW, Tessa was 17 and Scott was 19 at their first World Championships in 2007. Meryl was 20 and Charlie was 19. The Shibs first WC was at age 16 and 19. So I think V/M and D/W worked out whatever growth spurt issues they had at the junior level. And when they were going through juniors, YouTube was just starting, so their rise in the junior ranks were a lot more low key.

The age difference is also a factor for the Shibs. 2010 was not great year for them. They fell off the podium at WJC after getting silver the year before. Alex was 18 years old, the age Maia is now, and he definitely sprouted like a weed that year. So the age difference has been a problem because basically they had to go through not one but two different growth spurts as well.

My hope is that Maia is done growing for the most part and that they could get used to their current bodies and take it from there.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
The thing that stands out to me, outside their ice, is their dry and witty sense of humor. They make those really funny videos on YouTube and they write funny and witty blog posts on IceNetwork. I don't understand why that doesn't quite come out in their programs.

That's exactly it. Child-like wonder, beauty, innocence, playfulness, comedy. THAT can be their individual style. They're just not getting enough proper guidance for their development. I really don't think Marina is taking them very seriously. Making them skate to Memoirs of a Geisha just because they're Asian is lacking in creativity and qualifies as indifferent laziness.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
That's exactly it. Child-like wonder, beauty, innocence, playfulness, comedy. THAT can be their individual style. They're just not getting enough proper guidance for their development. I really don't think Marina is taking them very seriously. Making them skate to Memoirs of a Geisha just because they're Asian is lacking in creativity and qualifies as indifferent laziness.

To be fair, I think they wanted to go back to Memoirs to see if they could do a more mature version. Maia actually got a grant from the Women Sports Foundation so they could could learn the authentic moves of Japanese dance (http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120904&content_id=37859440&vkey=ice_news).

I thought that FD was really beautiful, but too subtle for anyone to appreciate except for their ardent fans.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Well - you could say the same thing about anybody else skating right now. No one is CERTAIN to qualify for the Olympics. Speculation runs rampant with Plushenko, Chan, Wagner, Aaron, Dai, etc. etc. It's

ROTFL nobody even suggests Chan isn't 130% certain (barring injury which forces him to not compete) to qualify for the Olympics. Wagner is practically 99.999% certain too. Takahashi is also 99.999% certain. Plushenko is a 99.999% certainty if he is healthy enough to compete and simply wants to compete. Of those you listed only Aaron isn't a mortal lock I agree, but he is in a much more secure position than the Shibutanis are at this point. The Shibutanis at best are 60% likely to be in Sochi, so they shouldn't be talked about in a presumptuous sense that they are already there like many others could be

As for your other comment there is plenty to keep them from "flying up the ranks". The fact their results and rank have been regressing solidly and non stop since their World bronze, and now they have even dropped won the pecking order in their own country. The fact that two thirds of the teams who are ranked higher than them right now (I add I&K of Russia to that since even though they finished behind the Shibutans at Worlds they have placed higher in virtually every other competition the last year plus and just had a bad event at Worlds) aren't going anywhere anytime soon. The only ones who probably are soon gone are Virtue & Moir, Davis & White, and Pechalat & Bourzat, but new teams will emerge too, they always do. Along with the fact they haven't improved in a long time now, and in fact their skills in many way seem to already be on decline.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I would imagine programs that focus on child-like wonder and beauty would bring out the Shibs' personalities. Maybe a program skated to the theme of Grave of the Fireflies (Japanese anime about a brother and sister struggling to survive in post-WW II Japan). Something that would contrast them from the other couples - their innocence and playfulness.

I don't know. They are getting a little old for childlike wonder. In fact, that might be the problem -- after you outgrow childlike wonder, what then?

Maia and Alex will have to find ways to bring greater depth and intensity to there performances without off-putting raunch. This may be a tall order, but that's what choreographers are for.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I don't know. They are getting a little old for childlike wonder. In fact, that might be the problem -- after you outgrow childlike wonder, what then?

Maia and Alex will have to find ways to bring greater depth and intensity to there performances without off-putting raunch. This may be a tall order, but that's what choreographers are for.

Humor and comedy. I think they should at least try childlike wonder once, or anything else because they've been trying to do what the other teams are dancing. It's dissonant and offputting, because they can't do the romance and passion between a man and woman. I think they should just try something that isn't antithetical to their personalities and vibe.
 
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